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prisonchaplain

What's the Christ-like thing to do this election?

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As the election draws closer, polls are showing that nearly 60% will vote against a candidate they hate, rather than for one they support. The apostle Paul, commanded Christians to pray for Caesar. Yikes! Roman leaders were immoral, anti-Christian despots. Don't trust government leaders? Think them unwise? Pray even harder!

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I’m not sure what verses you are specifically referring to, but I accept it as good advice that one consider praying for one’s leaders. It makes sense to do whether said leaders represent one’s ideology or not. One might feel it appropriate to pray that God soften the heart of a leader, or that God inspire a leader (in the spirit perhaps of the Lord’s Prayer) that God’s own will be done, etc. It might also be wise to pray for wisdom to understand God's will in the context of the events one finds one's self (in).  I’m wary, however, if the sentiment would ever be meant to ask God to change a leader’s ideological viewpoint given my observations of how two given religious adherents can develop very different political opinions while sharing the same deep and sincere religious convictions; or as they base their respective ideologies on two different sets of scriptural verses within the same book. And then there's always the danger as we pursue our never-ending quest to avoid unrighteous pride that our prayers not be veiled attempts to beat up those with whom we disagree politically.  But then I may be guilty of over-thinking your OP. :)

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I was just reading a post elsewhere on the internet with a quote from our general authorities that said (paraphrased)

Quote

It is our moral obligation to vote.  To not vote is a sin.
It is our moral obligation to vote for the just and virtuous candidate.  To vote for a morally bankrupt candidate is also a sin.

So, I was left wondering, if every candidate I see is morally bankrupt, then how do I escape sin at the ballot box?  My wife told me about McMullin.  I thought that was very interesting.

Yes, I could vote for him.

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Okay, I'll pray for Hillary and Trump, no problem.  But I won't vote for either of them.  I will vote 3rd party. 

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30 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

I was just reading a post elsewhere on the internet with a quote from our general authorities that said (paraphrased)

So, I was left wondering, if every candidate I see is morally bankrupt, then how do I escape sin at the ballot box?  My wife told me about McMullin.  I thought that was very interesting.

Yes, I could vote for him.

I don't know if you live in Utah, but those of us that do should vote for McMullin, because if he wins Utah, it could force both candidates to fall short of 270. In this case, it goes to the senate. If it ties in the senate, the house of representatives gets to pick the president. If they really hate Trump, which they do, they'll pick McMullin.

It's a long shot and it is definitely wishful thinking, but at this point, it's the only hope we have.

Edited by Larry Cotrell

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7 hours ago, UT.starscoper said:

I’m not sure what verses you are specifically referring to, but I accept it as good advice that one consider praying for one’s leaders. It makes sense to do whether said leaders represent one’s ideology or not. One might feel it appropriate to pray that God soften the heart of a leader, or that God inspire a leader (in the spirit perhaps of the Lord’s Prayer) that God’s own will be done, etc. It might also be wise to pray for wisdom to understand God's will in the context of the events one finds one's self (in).  I’m wary, however, if the sentiment would ever be meant to ask God to change a leader’s ideological viewpoint given my observations of how two given religious adherents can develop very different political opinions while sharing the same deep and sincere religious convictions; or as they base their respective ideologies on two different sets of scriptural verses within the same book. And then there's always the danger as we pursue our never-ending quest to avoid unrighteous pride that our prayers not be veiled attempts to beat up those with whom we disagree politically.  But then I may be guilty of over-thinking your OP. :)

 

 

1 Timothy 2:1-3:   I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;

For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.

For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;

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13 minutes ago, prisonchaplain said:

As important as voting is, the prayers that we'll offer post-election are probably exponentially more important--especially given the seemingly dismal outcome (regardless of who wins).

OH! Gotcha.  That is a little harder, but okay, I'll commit to it.  

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Here is how my thoughts and feelings are playing out.  And I say it as my understanding and interpretation only... not that I require or expect anyone else to follow or reach the same conclusion.

In the Book of Mormon we read that the "Voice of the People" generally chooses good... but when it chooses sin the people are condemned by the voice.  I consider voting a good example of the "Voice of the People."  While I can't control who others vote for I can personally choose to raise my voice for good.  I assume most other people and voters are wanting and willing to do the same.

So what is good...  people all have different ideas and priorities and I understand that.  For me the council to choose a candidate that match my expectations of what is good government, good society, and good personal character.   Sadly it seems like such is in short supply.  The only one I can find that is even remotely close doesn't have even a remote chance.

So be it.  I call myself a disciple of Christ... so it is my duty to stand for what I believe is true and correct.  Maybe come election day I stand alone...if so, then again so be it.. greater people then me have done the same or harder.  Or maybe I am not alone, maybe it not as hopeless as it seem..  Anyway to me my Christ-like duty at the ballot box seems clear.

Until then I realize that other people choose and vote and conclude as they feel best as is their right.  Some might try to alter my choice.  They might try to attack my intelligence in choosing someone that "Can't win," or that by not voting for their person I am enabling a greater horror.  I have heard these arguments and in the past they have had an impact.  But now I see them as saying "don't do what you know to be right."  So now these arguments are to me as the laughing and mocking of the "Great and Spacious Building" or the voice of Babylon the Great Whore of the Earth...  Fit only to be discarded and ignored.  Again this is where I am... Everyone else has every right to come to there own understanding of such arguments.

While I will discard the certain attacks and arguments as not relevant, until I cast my vote I am still in the study it out phase of  the receiving revelation process.  If someone wants to share why their favored candidate is a better match for what I think is good government, good society, and good personal character... I am more then happy to listen... But they need to need focus on those traits, not on "winnablity" or being the "lesser evil"

After the election to whomever it goes it becomes/remains my duty to respect the office.  No matter how much I might disagree with the office holder.

 

Edited by estradling75

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@estradling75  I've never been as uncertain as this election.  A few months ago I made a decision, though.  I would vote--and it would be a vote for one of the two real candidates.  There.  I said it.  We have a two-party system.  Either Trump or Clinton will be our next President.  Both have aspects that are "non, un, and anti-Christian."  As of today (and I may yet change) I will vote most heavily based on which candidate will oppose the findings of the US Commission on Civil Liberties.  That despicable report is publicly opposed by your church.  It is the basis on which a fundamental change (read reduction) in religious freedom is planned.  With the LGBT community leading the way, the First Amendment is fixing to be neutered.  Clinton will appoint justices who will be hostile to faith communities.  I won't defend Mr. Trump's horrible words (and possible horrible actions).  I will not blame those who don't vote for him.  I will not endorse him.  However, HRC threatens to usher in real and literal persecution against Judeo-Christian-Islamic morality.  I must oppose her..

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8 hours ago, estradling75 said:

...

Until then I realize that other people choose and vote and conclude as they feel best as is their right.  Some might try to alter my choice.  They might try to attack my intelligence in choosing someone that "Can't win," or that by not voting for their person I am enabling a greater horror.  I have heard these arguments and in the past they have had an impact.  But now I see them as saying "don't do what you know to be right."  So now these arguments are to me as the laughing and mocking of the "Great and Spacious Building" or the voice of Babylon the Great Whore of the Earth...  Fit only to be discarded and ignored.  Again this is where I am... Everyone else has every right to come to there own understanding of such arguments.

While I will discard the certain attacks and arguments as not relevant, until I cast my vote I am still in the study it out phase of  the receiving revelation process.  If someone wants to share why their favored candidate is a better match for what I think is good government, good society, and good personal character... I am more then happy to listen... But they need to need focus on those traits, not on "winnablity" or being the "lesser evil" ...

I suppose that many of us on our better days also feel as you feel even though many others often attack not only our intelligence but attack us personally.  Depending upon the thickness of our skin, I suppose, that may be a big deal or it may not.  I don't personally have a problem with someone seeking to alter my choice (if that means my opinion).  Some arguments have caused me in times passed to reconsider and even change my position on some issues. 

Do I apprehend correctly your remarks to mean that you cannot accept as reality that one or the other of two unwanted outcomes will occur and that voicing a desire for a third but next to impossible outcome (as opposed to helping prevent the worse of the two unwanted outcomes) is the better part?

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27 minutes ago, prisonchaplain said:

@estradling75  I've never been as uncertain as this election.  A few months ago I made a decision, though.  I would vote--and it would be a vote for one of the two real candidates.  There.  I said it.  We have a two-party system.  Either Trump or Clinton will be our next President.  Both have aspects that are "non, un, and anti-Christian."  As of today (and I may yet change) I will vote most heavily based on which candidate will oppose the findings of the US Commission on Civil Liberties.  That despicable report is publicly opposed by your church.  It is the basis on which a fundamental change (read reduction) in religious freedom is planned.  With the LGBT community leading the way, the First Amendment is fixing to be neutered.  Clinton will appoint justices who will be hostile to faith communities.  I won't defend Mr. Trump's horrible words (and possible horrible actions).  I will not blame those who don't vote for him.  I will not endorse him.  However, HRC threatens to usher in real and literal persecution against Judeo-Christian-Islamic morality.  I must oppose her..

@prisonchaplain  Totally fair...

I get why someone would totally want to stop HRC I have even been in that mindset myself.  I simply no longer believe that the Republican party had the ability to do so.

 

 

8 minutes ago, UT.starscoper said:

 

Do I apprehend correctly your remarks to mean that you cannot accept as reality that one or the other of two unwanted outcomes will occur and that voicing a desire for a third but next to impossible outcome (as opposed to helping prevent the worse of the two unwanted outcomes) is the better part?

Nope...  Barring divine intervention I expect HRC to become the next president...  It is also possible that I am wrong about the Republican party... in which case Trump will be...  Either way I will not like or care for the person in charge.

But this thread is about being Christ-like and I just can't see Christ voting 'against' someone.  Nor can I see him voting 'for' HRC or Trump.  That limits my options in being Christ-like.  I can and do see Christ respecting the Office of the President no matter who holds that office.

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30 minutes ago, prisonchaplain said:

 ... oppose the findings of the US Commission on Civil Liberties.  That despicable report is publicly opposed by your church.  It is the basis on which a fundamental change (read reduction) in religious freedom is planned.  With the LGBT community leading the way, the First Amendment is fixing to be neutered. ...

This causes me to think of issues that have been opposed by some leaders more than some other leaders over decades and centuries passed; and positions that turned out to be immoral. It often goes both ways.  I think that whether or not one's leaders voice a position on said issues it behooves the individual to determine between himself and God the appropriate stand to take and what fears are well-founded or not as opposed to relying solely on appeal to authority for it's own sake. 

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22 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

But this thread is about being Christ-like and I just can't see Christ voting 'against' someone.  Nor can I see him voting 'for' HRC or Trump.  That limits my options in being Christ-like.  I can and do see Christ respecting the Office of the President no matter who holds that office.

I don't know.  He chose at least one leader to whom he directed the pejorative "fox"--at least I take it as a pejorative focused against said leader's character.  I don't suppose I can envision the Savior voting at all, but I wonder if this expression of contempt and His counsel to render unto Caesar has some (or any) application to this thread; or whether it can be utilized to guide one in one's search for the right course to take in public areas such as elections. Don't misunderstand me: I'm not saying any of this at the moment to argue for or against one candidate or the other. 

Edited by UT.starscoper
Typo

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13 minutes ago, UT.starscoper said:

I don't know.  He chose at least one leader to whom he directed the pejorative "fox"--at least I take it as a pejorative focused against said leader's character.  I don't suppose I can envision the Savior voting at all, but I wonder if this expression of contempt and His counsel to render unto Caesar has some (or any) application to this thread; or whether it can be utilized to guide one in one's search for the right course to take in public areas such as elections. Don't misunderstand me: I'm not saying any of this at the moment to argue for or against one candidate or the other. 

Exactly...  Which is why I repeated several time in my initial post in this thread that what I posted represents where I have gotten and the path that led me there...  I don't expect or require anyone else to be on the same path or to have reached the same conclusion.

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8 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

I don't expect or require anyone else to be on the same path or to have reached the same conclusion.

Your position sounds pretty much the same as mine.

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And mine.

 

While reading your post about standing alone, it made me think of President Monson's story about the drill instructor telling the Jews, Catholics, and Protestants to each go to their respective church for services. 

He stood alone, knowing that it would have been just as easy to go with one of the others. 

 

...turns out he wasn't alone after all...

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2011/10/dare-to-stand-alone?lang=eng

 

"Instantly there flashed through my mind the thought, “Monson, you are not a Catholic; you are not a Jew; you are not a Protestant. You are a Mormon, so you just stand here!” I can assure you that I felt completely alone. Courageous and determined, yes—but alone.

And then I heard the sweetest words I ever heard that chief petty officer utter. He looked in my direction and asked, “And just what do you guys call yourselves?” Until that very moment I had not realized that anyone was standing beside me or behind me on the drill ground. Almost in unison, each of us replied, “Mormons!” It is difficult to describe the joy that filled my heart as I turned around and saw a handful of other sailors." 

 

I suppose another quote from the same talk kind of answers any question in my mind about what the Christlike thing to do is:

"As we go about living from day to day, it is almost inevitable that our faith will be challenged. We may at times find ourselves surrounded by others and yet standing in the minority or even standing alone concerning what is acceptable and what is not. Do we have the moral courage to stand firm for our beliefs, even if by so doing we must stand alone?" 

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20 hours ago, Carborendum said:

I was just reading a post elsewhere on the internet with a quote from our general authorities that said (paraphrased)

So, I was left wondering, if every candidate I see is morally bankrupt, then how do I escape sin at the ballot box?  My wife told me about McMullin.  I thought that was very interesting.

Yes, I could vote for him.

I'm voting for McMullin.  He wasn't able to get on the state ballot in Maryland but I'm writing him in.

I respectfully disagree with the General Authorities on voting.  Uninformed people shouldn't vote.  Here's a great commentary by Mike Rowe on the subject.
 

Quote

 

I’m afraid I can’t encourage millions of people whom I’ve never met to just run out and cast a ballot, simply because they have the right to vote. That would be like encouraging everyone to buy an AR-15, simply because they have the right to bear arms. I would need to know a few things about them before offering that kind of encouragement. For instance, do they know how to care for a weapon? Can they afford the cost of the weapon? Do they have a history of violence? Are they mentally stable? In short, are they responsible citizens?...

...Regardless of their political agenda, my celebrity pals are fundamentally mistaken about our ‘civic duty’ to vote. There is simply no such thing. Voting is a right, not a duty, and not a moral obligation. Like all rights, the right to vote comes with some responsibilities, but let’s face it – the bar is not set very high. If you believe aliens from another planet walk among us, you are welcome at the polls. If you believe the world is flat, and the moon landing was completely staged, you are invited to cast a ballot. Astrologists, racists, ghost-hunters, sexists, and people who rely upon a Magic 8 Ball to determine their daily wardrobe are all allowed to participate. In fact, and to your point, they’re encouraged.

 

 

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18 minutes ago, unixknight said:

I'm voting for McMullin.  He wasn't able to get on the state ballot in Maryland but I'm writing him in.

I respectfully disagree with the General Authorities on voting.  Uninformed people shouldn't vote.  Here's a great commentary by Mike Rowe on the subject.
 

Negativo my friend.  Please don't be mislead by the pied pipers within the Republican Party who are a part of the modern day Gadianton Robbers, who will stop at nothing to keep their power.  And I do mean that literally. McMullin is part of 'em. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evan_McMullin

Right on his wiki page, member of the Council on Foreign Relations and former CIA officer for 10 years and then worked in investment banking.  He is part of the Gadianton Robbers. Nope, no thank you; sorry my fellow mormons- you are being trolled with him. 

I honestly thought I might vote for Johnson, however the more and more I am seeing, I will be casting my vote for Trump. For one reasons and one reason only he is a massive big middle finger to the power elite and the corrupt Deep State, the Gadianton Robbers that control this country.

I like some of his policies but not a terrible many of them, he's not libertarian, he's not a moral person or necessarily a nice person.

Wikileaks is starting to lay bare the massive corruption that is embedded within our institutions of power. The collusion and downright campaigning from major news networks. If you think this corruption is only on the D side, you are fooling yourself.  My guess is at the RNC level (and having been acquainted personally with several of the RNC committee members, I'm fairly positive of this) what we are seeing with wikileaks is only half of the story.  From the RNC level, once Rubio/Bush dropped out they literally did not care who won (and that was certainly conveyed to me and several other folks by a certain powerful RNC individual), they had already given up the fight.  Anyone who thinks Cruz would have done any better is fooling themselves as the Establishment/Deep State candidates were already gone. Cruz would have tried to appeal to them (and might have been successful) Trump just doesn't care about the power elite.

Trump might be a bad guy, but if he is and if he does something illegal, you can bet dollars to donuts he'll be prosecuted for it. Those connected to the Deep State .. .hah they will never be prosecuted for their robbings, plunderings and murders. The Clinton Foundation filtering those who receive money from the State Department for disaster cleanup of Haiti??? Got to be a "Friend of Bill" you go to the front of line, otherwise go to this website.  Pure corruption and they will never be held accountable.

There is a reason why Trump has been made out to eat little babies (and he certainly hasn't help himself), but it is b/c he is not part of the Gadianton Robbers.

The only other point in the last 50 years the people have had the possibility to toss out those robbers was in '92. If he is part of the secret band, then I will gladly vote for someone else who more aligns with my political beliefs.  But unless that evidence comes forward, it might take an immoral man to root out the evil.   

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5 minutes ago, yjacket said:

There is a lot to be said about how the founders originally structured this country.  They knew having uninformed masses voting would not be a good thing.

"A republic, if you can keep it." -Ben Franklin

We couldn't.

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4 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

"A republic, if you can keep it." -Ben Franklin

We couldn't.

You have definitely got that right.  I'm at the point that this sucker ain't going back.

So let's get this party started, 'cuz when the facade really starts wearing thin people are going to realize there ain't nothing special about this country anymore. Right now we still have 2 things going for us, the best economy in the world and highest standards of living (thanks to having the world's reserve currency that we continually abuse) and military.  Those will be the last things to go and then the boiled frog with be cooked.

And we'll all wake up praying for deliverance that just maybe God will deliver us.

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6 minutes ago, yjacket said:

You have definitely got that right.  I'm at the point that this sucker ain't going back.

So let's get this party started, 'cuz when the facade really starts wearing thin people are going to realize there ain't nothing special about this country anymore. Right now we still have 2 things going for us, the best economy in the world and highest standards of living (thanks to having the world's reserve currency that we continually abuse) and military.  Those will be the last things to go and then the boiled frog with be cooked.

And we'll all wake up praying for deliverance that just maybe God will deliver us.

 You are too young to be so jaded. 

(total joke, I don't know your age or anything about you) 

Edited by MormonGator

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4 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

 You are too young to be so jaded. 

lol . . .probably.  Unfortunately, I've seen too much corruption up close and personal (I recently had to move jobs due to corruption at work). I've seen society morals change so incredibly fast. 2002- anit-sodomy law in Texas struck-down to homosexual marriage in 2015 and members of the LDS church get upset when the Church takes a stand on it?

The moral underpinning of this country is going down the tubes fast. May in my lifetime there be a cleansing that will at least give me hope for my children's generation, that they won't become scorned and hated for being religious or moral.

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15 minutes ago, yjacket said:

lol . . .probably.  Unfortunately, I've seen too much corruption up close and personal (I recently had to move jobs due to corruption at work). I've seen society morals change so incredibly fast. 2002- anit-sodomy law in Texas struck-down to homosexual marriage in 2015 and members of the LDS church get upset when the Church takes a stand on it?

The moral underpinning of this country is going down the tubes fast. May in my lifetime there be a cleansing that will at least give me hope for my children's generation, that they won't become scorned and hated for being religious or moral.

That's why we never got along. You are way too Pollyanna-like for me. Snap out it, man! 
(Again everyone, totally joking) 

Edited by MormonGator

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