I guess I'm just a horrible abusive mother

[SALZBURGERMADL]

Once again my adult daughter has reminded me of what an abusive mother I am. I'm heartbroken that according to her all my kids see me as being such a terrible person. I know I'm far from perfect and I know that I have made plenty of mistakes, but I rarely raise my voice at them. I do write angry texts at times because I'm afraid of confrontations. Once in a while, maybe once or twice per year, I loose it and yell. I used to yell a lot more when the kids were younger because I was under a lot of stress due to challenges and trauma. I'm just heartbroken that they see me as being that kind of a person.  My husband doesn't help much because he comes from a perfect lds family who never raised their voces. How bad am I really?

 

Edited October 20, 2016 by Just_A_Guy

[SALZBURGERMADL]

I should add that I've been a member nearly 40 years, I served a mission,  I've always honoured the covenants I made in the Temple and at baptism. I do my best to be compassionate to others. I do my best to be worthy of the atonement and to be a disciple of Christ. 

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

I'm sorry you and your family are struggling. I imagine this situation is very painful for all involved. I'm sorry about that. We, strangers on the Internet, really aren't in a position to judge your parenting.  That said, I will venture some advice based on a scenario a friend is facing that is similar.

My friend and her children are in family therapy. Her children have a lot of anger towards her, as your children appear to have toward you. The therapists, hers and her child's suggested that she listen. Just listen to her children. Let them tell her what they are feeling and do not try to defend herself, just listen.

What she was being asked to do was very difficult. It is hard to be accused and not be able to defend yourself. Especially when you feel you are innocent, and even if you are guilty there is an urge to explain your actions. 

But she was told to listen.  Just listen. 

It wasn't easy, but she did it. Afterwards she cried. It was hard to hear those things that were unfair and wrong. She cried and she vented to me. 

But you know what? After that things started to get better. Her relationship with the children began to improve. Why? Because the children felt heard.  In many cases that is all that is needed.

Can you tell your daughter that you want to understand better where she is coming from and then listen without responding?  Can you just listen?  The only thing you should say is I'm sorry, if you have to say something. (What your tone, a sarcastic apology is worthless.)

You might not agree with what she says, but if you want to have a healthy relationship with her she needs to say it and you need to listen. That's the only way. Pain needs a witness. Whether or not you agree is not the point right now, she needs to be heard. 

I hope you have someone you can talk to. Your husband or a friend.  Tell that person how you are innocent. Tell that person how painful this is. Tell that person anything you need to say. 

If you can do this, I think you will be amazed at the changes that will come in your relationship.

Edited October 20, 2016 by LiterateParakeet

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

P.S. I would encourage you NOT to write any more angry texts. Written communication leaves to much room for misunderstanding. Anger needs to be dealt with in person if possible or at least on the phone. If my mother sent me angry texts I would probably stop reading her texts. 

[SALZBURGERMADL]

24 minutes ago, LiterateParakeet said:

I suggested just this morning that we go for counselling and she refused.  

She lives in Canada and I live in the States. Texting is our main form of communicating. 

 

Edited October 20, 2016 by SALZBURGERMADL
Body of my message didn't post

[SALZBURGERMADL]

29 minutes ago, LiterateParakeet said:

P.S. I would encourage you NOT to write any more angry texts. Written communication leaves to much room for misunderstanding. Anger needs to be dealt with in person if possible or at least on the phone. If my mother sent me angry texts I would probably stop reading her texts. 

I agree with going to see a therapist and I even suggested that this morning but she refused. About 10 years ago she was angry with me for having a hard time forgiving her dad and leaving what he did to us in the past, adultery and abandonment while i was pregnant. She says that she forgave me about 1 1/2 years ago but day before yesterday things blew up again. She had made a comment that brought a very painful memory back to the surface and I told her this. I wasn't angry,  I was in pain.  It angered her and things spun out of control from there.

 

It's also very hard to talk on the phone or face to face as I grew up in a home with a very narcissistic, highly intelligent  older sibling and have been verbally and emotionally abused and backed into a corner by my spouse when I tried to communicate with him. It has caused me to be very afraid to talk with members of my family. 

[Jane_Doe]

49 minutes ago, SALZBURGERMADL said:

I agree with going to see a therapist and I even suggested that this morning but she refused. About 10 years ago she was angry with me for having a hard time forgiving her dad and leaving what he did to us in the past, adultery and abandonment while i was pregnant. She says that she forgave me about 1 1/2 years ago but day before yesterday things blew up again. She had made a comment that brought a very painful memory back to the surface and I told her this. I wasn't angry,  I was in pain.  It angered her and things spun out of control from there.

Healing can only come when a person is ready to accept it.  If your daughter is not willing yet, no one can force her.  However if you wanted to attend by yourself, that itself may be a good thing, especially if you have old wounds of betrayal.  Having your wounds healed will help make you a better person and mother.

It's also very hard to talk on the phone or face to face as I grew up in a home with a very narcissistic, highly intelligent  older sibling and have been verbally and emotionally abused and backed into a corner by my spouse when I tried to communicate with him. It has caused me to be very afraid to talk with members of my family. 

This is another thing therapy can help with.  You shouldn't be afraid to talk to your own daughter.

 

 

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

Salzburgerma, I didn't suggest therapy for you...I only said that my friend is in therapy and what she learned.  I admit I think it would be a good idea.  But the main point of my post was that you LISTEN to your daughter.   I say this in the kindest way I can: please read my post again.  I feel like you missed my point entirely, and if this is indicative of your conversations with your daughter, no wonder there is frustration.

Have you considered attending therapy by yourself? (Yes, this time I am suggesting therapy for YOU) With your history, I think it could really be helpful for you.  I totally understand your difficulty with talking to members of your family, but these kinds of wounds can be healed in therapy.  I speak from experience on that.  

[SALZBURGERMADL]

Not to worry, I knew what you meant.  The point was that I had made the suggestion of going somewhere and it was refused. Until she is ready to go there is little I can do but wait. 

She says that she has forgiven me, but I feel that she hasn't fully forgiven me yet. If she had she would not have interpreted the things I had said with such hostility. 

A short whole ago she wrote me and asked that we stop fighting because she missed sharing baby photos with me. I wrote back and told her that I loved her and that at no point had I been arguing with her because I wasn't angry with her.

I have attended therapy by myself and it has been very helpful. 

I have also relied on the healing power of the atonement and that has made a tremendous difference. But like Elder Scott said in a talk given many years ago, healing from abuse takes a long time. 

 

 

 

[Jane_Doe]

6 minutes ago, SALZBURGERMADL said:

Not to worry, I knew what you meant.  The point was that I had made the suggestion of going somewhere and it was refused. Until she is ready to go there is little I can do but wait. 

While you can't work directly on your relationship with her, you can still work on yourself.  Things like learning how to better communicate with people and not being afraid. 

6 minutes ago, SALZBURGERMADL said:

She says that she has forgiven me, but I feel that she hasn't fully forgiven me yet. If she had she would not have interpreted the things I had said with such hostility. 

Forgiveness is a tricky thing.  A person can clear out most of the mess and think things are all better, just to find more of it later.  Kind of like doing the dishes...

6 minutes ago, SALZBURGERMADL said:

I have attended therapy by myself and it has been very helpful. 

Perhaps a different approach or different therapist?  Then again you're different from back then too.  Therapy is kind of a very personal thing, you got to find what works for you personally.  

6 minutes ago, SALZBURGERMADL said:

I have also relied on the healing power of the atonement and that has made a tremendous difference. But like Elder Scott said in a talk given many years ago, healing from abuse takes a long time. 

Amen!

 

[SALZBURGERMADL]

The thing about communication is that I have little difficulty doing so with other people, the problem is communication with my family. 

Furthermore, I could be wrong about this but I feel that my family has developed an unreasonably high expectation for mothers and how they are supposed to conduct thrmselves.

[Jane_Doe]

7 minutes ago, SALZBURGERMADL said:

The thing about communication is that I have little difficulty doing so with other people, the problem is communication with my family. 

Well, what about talking with family makes you afraid, but talking to other people doesn't?  (You don't actually have to answer this, it's more of a thought question)

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

1 hour ago, SALZBURGERMADL said:

I have also relied on the healing power of the atonement and that has made a tremendous difference. But like Elder Scott said in a talk given many years ago, healing from abuse takes a long time. 

I totally agree with you here.  I am also an abuse survivor.  It's a long journey. 

1 hour ago, SALZBURGERMADL said:

Furthermore, I could be wrong about this but I feel that my family has developed an unreasonably high expectation for mothers and how they are supposed to conduct thrmselves.

That is possible. 

1 hour ago, Jane_Doe said:

Forgiveness is a tricky thing.  A person can clear out most of the mess and think things are all better, just to find more of it later.  Kind of like doing the dishes...

Oh so true!  I love the dishes analogy.  My therapist says I can forgive someone and still be angry about what they did.  I like that.  I'm coming to grips with the idea that I can forgive someone, but then find myself angry again later about something that happened.  Gradually I work through it and feel more forgiving again.  Like the dishes....ha ha, such a great analogy!

[Sunday21]

4 hours ago, LiterateParakeet said:

I totally agree with you here.  I am also an abuse survivor.  It's a long journey. 

That is possible. 

Oh so true!  I love the dishes analogy.  My therapist says I can forgive someone and still be angry about what they did.  I like that.  I'm coming to grips with the idea that I can forgive someone, but then find myself angry again later about something that happened.  Gradually I work through it and feel more forgiving again.  Like the dishes....ha ha, such a great analogy!

Dear LP, would love to hear explanation about how you can be angry and still forgive someone. Please share this wisdom. This information would be very useful for many people.

[Guest]

11 hours ago, SALZBURGERMADL said:

How bad am I really?

If that OP is all your children have on you, then not much.

I mean, how dare you try to actually parent your own children.  How dare you correct them.  How dare you tell them when they're messing up.  How dare you actually care what they do and what kind of people they'll grow up to be.  How dare you actually take your role as parent seriously.  How dare you think that just because you carried them for nine months and nurtured them for all the time afterward that they should give you some level of respect, obedience, and honor.

How dare you.

Since you're new and don't know me -- the above was sarcastic.  If all you do is what you mentioned in the OP, then you're doing fine.  Your kids just need to get a grip on reality.

7 hours ago, SALZBURGERMADL said:

... I feel that my family has developed an unreasonably high expectation for mothers and how they are supposed to conduct thrmselves.

You mean you're not the picturesque June Cleaver or Marion Cunningham?  How dare you should be a mom who actually needs the Atonement in her life.  How dare you have flaws.  How dare you need the guidance of the Lord to make you better.  How dare you would need the hospital for sinners that the Church is supposed to be.  How dare you...

Again, your kids need to get a grip.

11 hours ago, SALZBURGERMADL said:

Once again my adult daughter has reminded me of what an abusive mother I am.

This is really a two-way judgment.

If that's what your daughter sees in you, then statistically, she has a problem parenting, herself.  Because she's fairly messed up herself, she needs someone to blame it on.  She's chosen you.

She probably does her best to keep up her June Cleaver image.  But the reality is that she's falling apart inside.  No matter what her appearances, she makes mistakes, and she hates it.  She hates herself because she, herself, can't match up to the unrealistic image she has set for herself.  So, it's obviously your fault (not really).

The loving compassionate thing to do would be to understand how weak she sees herself and let her know that it is ok if she's not perfect.  Let her know that you know she's trying just as much as you always gave your best when raising her.  Love her, and let her know how hard you see her trying.  Let her know you love her even if she isn't really June Cleaver or Eliza R. Snow.

Perfection is a journey, not a destination.

Edited October 20, 2016 by Guest

[SALZBURGERMADL]

10 hours ago, Jane_Doe said:

Well, what about talking with family makes you afraid, but talking to other people doesn't?  (You don't actually have to answer this, it's more of a thought 

2 hours ago, Carborendum said:

If that OP is all your children have on you, then not much.

I mean, how dare you try to actually parent your own children.  How dare you correct them.  How dare you tell them when they're messing up.  How dare you actually care what they do and what kind of people they'll grow up to be.  How dare you actually take your role as parent seriously.  How dare you think that just because you carried them for nine months and nurtured them for all the time afterward that they should give you some level of respect, obedience, and honor.

How dare you.

Since you're new and don't know me -- the above was sarcastic.  If all you do is what you mentioned in the OP, then you're doing fine.  Your kids just need to get a grip on reality.

You mean you're not the picturesque June Cleaver or Marion Cunningham?  How dare you should be a mom who actually needs the Atonement in her life.  How dare you have flaws.  How dare you need the guidance of the Lord to make you better.  How dare you would need the hospital for sinners that the Church is supposed to be.  How dare you...

Again, your kids need to get a grip.

This is really a two-way judgment.

If that's what your daughter sees in you, then statistically, she has a problem parenting, herself.  Because she's fairly messed up herself, she needs someone to blame it on.  She's chosen you.

She probably does her best to keep up her June Cleaver image.  But the reality is that she's falling apart inside.  No matter what her appearances, she makes mistakes, and she hates it.  She hates herself because she, herself, can't match up to the unrealistic image she has set for herself.  So, it's obviously your fault (not really).

The loving compassionate thing to do would be to understand how weak she sees herself and let her know that it is ok if she's not perfect.  Let her know that you know she's trying just as much as you always gave your best when raising her.  Love her, and let her know how hard you see her trying.  Let her know you love her even if she isn't really June Cleaver or Eliza R. Snow.

Perfection is a journey, not a destination.

I don't have time for a lengthy reply as I'm heading out to get my antidepressant prescription refilled. 

But that's just it, how dare I not be perfect? Last I heard, the only way to be perfect was through the atonement and by taking on His name. 

The list of trials, traumas and losses I've been through is lengthy and yet I've been expected to not fall apart and raise my voice when my kids step out of line. Both my ex and my husband undermined me as a mother. So my kids have developed a false impression of how a mother is supposed to be. I hate to say this but I'm certain that the portrait of what a mother in Zion is like is not portrayed very accurately in YW. 

I did fall apart and experienced a deep depression. I'm doing a lot better, but my kids are still hurting and some angry that I wasn't the mother that they needed.

 

10 hours ago, Jane_Doe said:

 

[Windseeker]

14 hours ago, LiterateParakeet said:

My friend and her children are in family therapy. Her children have a lot of anger towards her, as your children appear to have toward you. The therapists, hers and her child's suggested that she listen. Just listen to her children. Let them tell her what they are feeling and do not try to defend herself, just listen.

What she was being asked to do was very difficult. It is hard to be accused and not be able to defend yourself. Especially when you feel you are innocent, and even if you are guilty there is an urge to explain your actions. 

But she was told to listen.  Just listen. 

It wasn't easy, but she did it. Afterwards she cried. It was hard to hear those things that were unfair and wrong. She cried and she vented to me. 

But you know what? After that things started to get better. Her relationship with the children began to improve. Why? Because the children felt heard.  In many cases that is all that is needed.

QFT

I don't have anything to add, but I needed this and love it. 

Thanks LP!

Edited October 20, 2016 by Windseeker

[Guest]

31 minutes ago, Windseeker said:

Thanks Carb

I think you meant LP?

[Windseeker]

6 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

I think you meant LP?

Yes, thanks LP!

 

and now I can say Thanks Carb! for pointing that out 

 

 

 

 

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

6 hours ago, Sunday21 said:

Dear LP, would love to hear explanation about how you can be angry and still forgive someone. Please share this wisdom. This information would be very useful for many people.

Thanks for asking Sunday, it was a new concept for me too.  I have to run, but I'll come back later and explain. 

[SALZBURGERMADL]

5 minutes ago, LiterateParakeet said:

Thanks for asking Sunday, it was a new concept for me too.  I have to run, but I'll come back later and explain. 

Healing from abuse takes time. Read Elder Richard G Scotts 1992 talk on healing from abuse. 

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

19 minutes ago, SALZBURGERMADL said:

Healing from abuse takes time. Read Elder Richard G Scotts 1992 talk on healing from abuse. 

I'm sorry to say this but I hate that talk.  I much prefer Sis. Okasaki's talk Healing From Sexual Abuse or Elder Holland's talk Like A Broken Vessel. 

Thanks though.

[NeuroTypical]

Yeah, I just read the thing, and I've got to say that our church's counsel on such matters has evolved a bit in the quarter-century since Elder Scott issued his vague advice against certain kinds of professional counseling.   I remember the late '80's and early '90's as when the nation was dealing with the notion of "recovered memories".  Some people were being convicted of crimes they didn't commit, based on testimony from people who had recovered memories.  There were groups accepting the process as valid and thereputic, and groups (like our church) urging caution.  

I remember one Wall Street Journal article about how some preschool teachers had been convicted of child abuse based on testimony from children detailing horrible abuse, as well as flying saucers and magic clowns crawling on the ceiling and such things.  

I think these days, after the world has studied and learned a ton more about how brains and memories work, therapy targeted towards recovering forgotten memories is pretty much dead, as is the notion of using recovered memories in a court as reliable testimony.

So yeah, I think I understand why Elder Scott was saying the stuff he was saying there, but no, nobody in church is telling anyone to avoid examining trauma in a theraputic setting, or to avoid group thereapy.  

Edited October 20, 2016 by NeuroTypical

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

Thanks so much @NeuroTypical. 

I guess I'm a bit paranoid, but understanding was not the response I expected.  

ETA: Most of my memories are recovered. We don't dig for them in therapy, we just discuss effects like my Nightmares that could be the starting point for Stephen King novels and the memories sometimes come forward.

But because I understand the fickle nature of memory I wouldn't think of taking my abuser to court based on recovered memories. Remembering is for my healing only and it does help.

I have also done group therapy. We never talked in detail about the abuse there...it could easily be triggering for someone else. We talked more about dealing with day to day issues of living with PTSD and dissociation.

Edited October 20, 2016 by LiterateParakeet

[anatess2]

Let me tell you about the things my kids have gone through...

(taking a deep breath) Here goes...

I have had a one-sided screaming match with my husband while we were in the car.  I was pregnant with my 2nd child and my first child is strapped to his carseat in the back.  I ended up opening the door while the car was cruising on the highway, I jumped out of the car.  My husband tossed me my phone and drove off with my kid leaving me on the side of the road.  I walked home... 7 months pregnant without any money on me even as I had a phone to call a cab.

Another screaming session in the car ended with my husband pulling into an empty parking lot where I got out and with all the blood pumping to my screaming lungs, I lost blood flow to my head which caused me to pass out and drop like a ton of bricks on the cement.  Good thing I only sustained bruises and scratches and not broken bones or a fractured skull!

I have had another screaming match with my husband where I ended up throwing dishes at him making a horrid mess.

I can't count on both hands how many times I have yelled at the children.

So... from your OP... compared to me, you're Mother Theresa!

My kids don't hate me.  Well... at least they don't say or act like they hate me.  They're 15 and 13 years old.  We talk about it all the time.  I have anger management problems.

Anyway, my advice:  You can't control what your children do or feel.  You can only control how you react to them.  Your daughter telling you that you're a horrible, abusive, mother is her own perception of things.  It may be that she really feels that way or it may be that it is just her way of making herself feel better by hurting you.  In any case, this is not about you.  This is about your daughter.  @LiterateParakeet gave you excellent advice.  Listening to her can give you a glimpse of why she feels that way or why she finds it necessary to hurt you to make herself feel better.  And most importantly, it gives her a chance to vent and start the healing process.  I believe she is still suffering the effects of your divorce to her father (If I'm understanding your posts correctly) and she's still really hurt by it so she lashes out at you.  The only way she can get over that is if she learns to forgive her parents. 

Forgiveness.  That's something you also need.  Forgive your daughter even if she doesn't feel or say that she is sorry.  Just forgive her.  And... just as important... forgive yourself for your shortcomings in the long ago past.  I have to do this over and over and over - to forgive myself - every single day.  It's the only way I can survive without hanging myself!

 

 

Edited October 20, 2016 by anatess2