RIP Jack Chick

[Just_A_Guy]

56 minutes ago, Larry Cotrell said:

Telling someone that they're going to hell is a very loving thing to do.

I get your larger point here--not all "ways" are created equal, and God wants people to follow THE way, and part of that entails telling certain people/groups "no, I'm sorry, but that's just wrong".

But for the sake of being nit-picky:

If I tell someone they are at risk of going to hell, that is indeed a loving thing to do (although of dubious efficacy, depending on circumstances and audience).  But if I tell someone that they ARE going to hell--that just makes me a gloating burro.

One of the big turn-offs for me as far as interfaith discourse goes, is that there seems to be a substantial number of folks in various religions traditions who seem to enjoy the idea of other people going hell.

[Larry Cotrell]

6 minutes ago, pam said:

Are you saying that you think Mormonism is a false church or teaches false doctrine?

I am saying that Jack Chick said that. He made a tract about the Mormon church called "The Visitors," it does not portray the Mormon church in a positive light.

[Larry Cotrell]

11 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

If I tell someone they are at risk of going to hell, that is indeed a loving thing to do (although of dubious efficacy, depending on circumstances and audience).  But if I tell someone that they ARE going to hell--that just makes me a gloating burro.

Obviously it's not right to just tell someone that they are going to hell and stop. The important part is what comes next, that they are told the truth of the gospel and Christ's forgiveness.

[pam]

7 minutes ago, Larry Cotrell said:

I am saying that Jack Chick said that. He made a tract about the Mormon church called "The Visitors," it does not portray the Mormon church in a positive light.

Okay but let me quote you:

Quote

I appreciate is that he took on the false teachings of different major religious groups including Islam, Catholicism, Jehovah's Witness, I won't complete the list because it includes one that might rhyme with shlormonism. 

So what I get from this is that you think some of these religions teach false teachings and then you throw in "schlormonism."  How are we honestly supposed to take that?    

[Larry Cotrell]

15 minutes ago, pam said:

So what I get from this is that you think some of these religions teach false teachings and then you throw in "schlormonism."  How are we honestly supposed to take that?    

I'm not trying to offend anyone. Obviously I believe that there are things that the Mormon church teaches that are wrong, otherwise I'd be a Mormon. There are things my own denomination teaches that I believe are wrong as well.

The point I was trying to make is that I get tired of people being too politically correct to correct someone, and Jack Chick wasn't that way.

I don't agree with him on everything, I don't think everything he said was perfect, but I admire his courage.

[Jane_Doe]

24 minutes ago, Larry Cotrell said:

I am saying that Jack Chick said that. He made a tract about the Mormon church called "The Visitors," it does not portray the Mormon church in a positive light.

I am very familiar with that tract (it was a favorite of some groups in my old town).  The tracts is 43 pages long.  The first 39/43 pages are devoted to stereotyping and not telling a single straight fact about LDS beliefs.  The last 4 pages then talk about Jack Chick's beliefs which have no direct relationship to the previous 39 pages of lies. 

[Jane_Doe]

14 minutes ago, Larry Cotrell said:

 There are things my own denomination teaches that I believe are wrong as well.

Time out (totally off topic thing here)-- Larry, if you believe your denomination teaches falsehoods, why are you a part of it?  Furthermore, won't you a leader in your church? (correct me if I'm misremembering)

[Larry Cotrell]

22 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

Time out (totally off topic thing here)-- Larry, if you believe your denomination teaches falseho Irrect me if I'm misremembering)

My denomination (Foursquare) teaches that women can be pastors. I don't agree with this because of a handful of Bible verses. However, this not a major thing. It is rarely brought up and few Foursquare pastors are women. Another example would be I went to a church that believed in eternal security. I don't, but I'm not going to disregard an entire church because of something minor like this. Between women pastors, eternal security, infant baptism, etc., there's no denomination I agree with 100%. Minor interpretational things like this can be overlooked. However, there are some things that cannot be, like the path to salvation. And no, I haven't been a pastor. My dad and grandfather were, so I've helped out in churches a lot. 

Edited October 26, 2016 by Larry Cotrell

[Jane_Doe]

13 minutes ago, Larry Cotrell said:

My denomination (Foursquare) teaches that women can be pastors. I don't agree with this because of a handful of Bible verses. However, this not a major thing. It is rarely brought up and few Foursquare pastors are women. Another example would be I went to a church that believed in eternal security. I don't, but I'm not going to disregard an entire church because of something minor like this. Between women pastors, eternal security, infant baptism, etc., there's no denomination I agree with 100%. Minor interpretational things like this can be overlooked. However, there are some things that cannot be, like the path to salvation.

Thank you for this informative response.

13 minutes ago, Larry Cotrell said:

And no, I haven't been a pastor. My dad and grandfather were, so I've helped out in churches a lot. 

Ah, maybe that's what I was thinking of.

[estradling75]

If we are talking about declaring the truth irregardless of how other faiths might feel about it...

Us LDS could always unleash 2 Nephi 29

 3 And because my words shall hiss forth—many of the Gentiles shall say: A Bible! A Bible! We have got a Bible, and there cannot be any more Bible.

 4 But thus saith the Lord God: O fools, they shall have a Bible; and it shall proceed forth from the Jews, mine ancient covenant people. And what thank they the Jews for the Bible which they receive from them? Yea, what do the Gentiles mean? Do they remember the travails, and the labors, and the pains of the Jews, and their diligence unto me, in bringing forth salvation unto the Gentiles?

 5 O ye Gentiles, have ye remembered the Jews, mine ancient covenant people? Nay; but ye have cursed them, and have hated them, and have not sought to recover them. But behold, I will return all these things upon your own heads; for I the Lord have not forgotten my people.

 6 Thou fool, that shall say: A Bible, we have got a Bible, and we need no more Bible. Have ye obtained a Bible save it were by the Jews?

 7 Know ye not that there are more nations than one? Know ye not that I, the Lord your God, have created all men, and that I remember those who are upon the isles of the sea; and that I rule in the heavens above and in the earth beneath; and I bring forth my word unto the children of men, yea, even upon all the nations of the earth?

 

I mean it is straight from the mouth of God... what God fearing person could possibly have a problem with it as truth and factual?!?

Yet most of the time us LDS realize presentation matters if we are trying to do the Lord's command to reach out to those of different faith.

 

 

[Guest MormonGator]

17 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

Yet most of the time us LDS realize presentation matters if we are trying to do the Lord's command to reach out to those of different faith.

Amen. I think presentation matters in business, religion, politics, friendships-you name it. No one listens to the guy/girl who just screams all the time. That's why the Westboro Baptist Church and yes, Jack Chick are marginalized 

[NeuroTypical]

2 hours ago, Larry Cotrell said:

I am saying that Jack Chick said that. He made a tract about the Mormon church called "The Visitors," it does not portray the Mormon church in a positive light.

He produced more than that.  There was also that cool one where the danites come and murder the husband because he was beginning to think for himself too much.  And the new cop couldn't do anything about it because the chief of police was the bishop.  The wife happily went off with her new husband assigned to her by the church.  But the new cop did good - he helped his mormon partner leave the church by exposing all the truths.

Pity - I can't find that on his website any more. 

[estradling75]

10 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

He produced more than that.  There was also that cool one where the danites come and murder the husband because he was beginning to think for himself too much.  And the new cop couldn't do anything about it because the chief of police was the bishop.  The wife happily went off with her new husband assigned to her by the church.  But the new cop did good - he helped his mormon partner leave the church by exposing all the truths.

Pity - I can't find that on his website any more. 

Funny isn't that such obvious lies and distortions should make it clear he wasn't interested in "Truth" yet we have people here praising him for doing just that

 

 

[prisonchaplain]

My take on Jack Chick's work:  As Larry mentioned, some of his straight evangelism tracts were effective. He presented a very clear, heaven vs. hell message. He rightly called people to repentance.  Frankly, in today's post-modern church world, there is a part of me that waxes nostalgic for blunt presentations of stark truth.  ON THE OTHER HAND, Bro. Jack did traffic in some untruths--the comic series on the alleged Catholic priest infiltrating Protestant churches is the most blunt example.  Additionally, he was often intentionally disrespectful and offensive.  I recall an anti-Catholic tract, in which a priest is trying to exorcise a demon, only to have the foul spirit spit in his face.  He was also a very aggressive KJV-only guy, suggesting that those who used modern versions were apostates.  Ultimately, he was an artist-business man, who allowed his success to convinced him of his theological expertise.  He became something of a "mini-pope" to those who embraced his messages.  By the 1980s most Christian bookstores refused to carry his booklets, due to their divisive and aggressive nature.

[bytebear]

When I was on my mission, we used "The Visitors" on occasion to correct misconceptions.  I considered it a positive, honestly, because the Spirit clearly taught that his works were not of God.  And it was free publicity. 

[bytebear]

I will note that Chick did soften his take on the pamphlet.  In later versions, the "doubting missionary" was just reprimanded by his companion and presumably punished.  In earlier versions, the companion mentions calling the Temple and having a curse put on the lady who "confounded" them.

[Ironhold]

http://www.latimes.com/local/obituaries/la-me-ln-jack-chick-obituary-20161024-snap-story.html

LA Times article announcing his death.

So yeah - contrary to the rumors, he's dead. 

[Ironhold]

2 hours ago, prisonchaplain said:

My take on Jack Chick's work:  As Larry mentioned, some of his straight evangelism tracts were effective. He presented a very clear, heaven vs. hell message. He rightly called people to repentance.  Frankly, in today's post-modern church world, there is a part of me that waxes nostalgic for blunt presentations of stark truth.  ON THE OTHER HAND, Bro. Jack did traffic in some untruths--the comic series on the alleged Catholic priest infiltrating Protestant churches is the most blunt example.  Additionally, he was often intentionally disrespectful and offensive.  I recall an anti-Catholic tract, in which a priest is trying to exorcise a demon, only to have the foul spirit spit in his face.  He was also a very aggressive KJV-only guy, suggesting that those who used modern versions were apostates.  Ultimately, he was an artist-business man, who allowed his success to convinced him of his theological expertise.  He became something of a "mini-pope" to those who embraced his messages.  By the 1980s most Christian bookstores refused to carry his booklets, due to their divisive and aggressive nature.

 

5 hours ago, Larry Cotrell said:

My denomination (Foursquare) teaches that women can be pastors. I don't agree with this because of a handful of Bible verses. However, this not a major thing. It is rarely brought up and few Foursquare pastors are women. Another example would be I went to a church that believed in eternal security. I don't, but I'm not going to disregard an entire church because of something minor like this. Between women pastors, eternal security, infant baptism, etc., there's no denomination I agree with 100%. Minor interpretational things like this can be overlooked. However, there are some things that cannot be, like the path to salvation. And no, I haven't been a pastor. My dad and grandfather were, so I've helped out in churches a lot. 

I'm posting this separately since I don't know how long this post will be up. 

http://www.fmh-child.org/Lisa.html

"Lisa" was a Chick Tract first published in 1984, and thrown down the memory hole not long afterwords. 

In the tract, a doctor discovers that a minor has an STD. The minor's father confesses to sexually assaulting their own child when the doctor confronts him, at which point the doctor... witnesses to the father. 

At no point does the doctor act on his legal obligation to notify the authorities. No, the dad said the right words in front of him and so all is forgiven. The fact that the minor will spend the rest of their life with a persistent STD is swept under the rug because hey - if someone says that they're saved, they're saved, right? 

Chick Publications denies ever producing this tract, but enough copies survived to the present that people began scanning them and posting them online. 

[Jamie123]

17 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

Oh wow.  Years ago, I tried to adopt his Joseph Smith artwork as an avatar, but Pam told me I had to get rid of it because she was worried about lawsuits. 

I never saw that one before. Looks like the poor guy's having a stroke!

[unixknight]

15 hours ago, Larry Cotrell said:

There is a difference between saying "all Catholics are going to hell" and saying "those of you who think you can pay off your own sins in purgatory are going to hell."

...

No one can say "all Catholics are going to hell" but someone can say "This doctrine is of pagan origin and here's how" or "Jesus was enough to pay for your sins, if you don't believe that, you're going to hell because you are turning to something else for salvation."

True, but Chick's tracts didn't make those kinds of distinctions.  Otherwise, the conversion part at the end wouldn't be necessary, even when a person is sincere but going to the "wrong" church.

I'm sad not because I thought there was that much value in the way Chick presented his message.  I'm sad because I'd rather have 1,000 Jack Chicks who think my Church is wrong but at least have a sense of morality and faith than even one more Dawkins or Madonna trying to make morality and faith seem like a bad thing.

Edited October 26, 2016 by unixknight

[NeuroTypical]

12 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

He produced more than that.  There was also that cool one where the danites come and murder the husband because he was beginning to think for himself too much.  And the new cop couldn't do anything about it because the chief of police was the bishop.  The wife happily went off with her new husband assigned to her by the church.  But the new cop did good - he helped his mormon partner leave the church by exposing all the truths.

Pity - I can't find that on his website any more. 

Oh!  I found it!  I got most of the plot points wrong, but the real thing is just as silly.   The wife was never LDS, married the mormon guy who went so inactive the danites murdered him.  Massive bloodspattered crime scene with furniture busted up and all, the chief says "Looks like a suicide to me!", and they get the non-LDS cop out quick.  The chief calls the bishop who gets there in 10 minutes.  Now, it's against lds.net rules to upload anything defamatory about the church, but this is so obviously over-the-top nonsense, I'll just make an exception this one time.  The other mods are free to infract me if they wish.

Yeah.  Jack Chick and the truth.  They seemed to have a tumultuous relationship in life.  

He was preceded in death by a wife and child, he was a private person, so we don't know details of loved ones grieving his death, but I'm sure there are many, and I'm sorry for their loss.  He was a more talented artist than I'll ever be, and I always grieve a loss of talent.  He was also drafted in 1943 and served in the Pacific Theater, and I thank him for his service.

 

Edited October 26, 2016 by NeuroTypical

[prisonchaplain]

A former Protestant chaplain I knew converted to Catholicism, at great personal cost.  He wrote a book about his conversion, and over half of it was a refutation of Jack Chick's criticisms of the church. Frankly, I'd always seen Chick as a pop-pulp evangelist, rather than a theologian whom folks studied in any depth.  Some folks really did, though.

[Jamie123]

29 minutes ago, prisonchaplain said:

A former Protestant chaplain I knew converted to Catholicism, at great personal cost.  He wrote a book about his conversion, and over half of it was a refutation of Jack Chick's criticisms of the church. Frankly, I'd always seen Chick as a pop-pulp evangelist, rather than a theologian whom folks studied in any depth.  Some folks really did, though.

Some of his material against evolution was informed by Kent Hovind: the guy who believes the flood/ice-age was created by an "ice meteor" breaking up in our atmosphere due to tidal forces and fell on the poles (guided by the Earth's magnetic field) as "super-cold snow" (as of that amount of energy wouldn't have converted it to super-hot steam) and that some of that ice found its way to Saturn (!!!?) to form the rings, that any modern anthropologist still takes "Piltdown Man" seriously and that "If a Chimpanzee gave birth to a human why doesn't it do so again today?"** It wouldn't surprise me in the least that Chick was as poor a theologian as Hovind is a scientist.

**To the objection that this would take "millions of years", Hovind usually whips out the strawman: "It doesn't matter how long ago it was!" He sometimes boasts that Dawkins doesn't dare debate with him. I can see why!

Edited October 26, 2016 by Jamie123

[prisonchaplain]

The problem with these types of individuals and organizations is that they tend to be loud, good at garnering media attention, and they over-shadow legitimate, intelligent voices who stand for similar teachings. For every Kent Hovind, there are probably a dozen or more scholars who argue for Intelligent Design, and even Young Earth Creationism, using sound methods of science, and other fields. For every cartoonish Jack Chick "anti" tract, there several thoughtful apologetic books that explicate disagreements over doctrine and theology in ways that are thoughtful, respectful, and honest.  Sadly, these guys suck the oxygen out of the room, leaving little room for sincere spiritual conversations.  So, what's the cure--the solution?  MORMONHUB.COM/FORUMS.  Yay us!

[Jane_Doe]

16 minutes ago, prisonchaplain said:

The problem with these types of individuals and organizations is that they tend to be loud, good at garnering media attention, and they over-shadow legitimate, intelligent voices who stand for similar teachings. For every Kent Hovind, there are probably a dozen or more scholars who argue for Intelligent Design, and even Young Earth Creationism, using sound methods of science, and other fields. For every cartoonish Jack Chick "anti" tract, there several thoughtful apologetic books that explicate disagreements over doctrine and theology in ways that are thoughtful, respectful, and honest.  Sadly, these guys suck the oxygen out of the room, leaving little room for sincere spiritual conversations.  So, what's the cure--the solution?  MORMONHUB.COM/FORUMS.  Yay us!

AMEN!!!!!