I think I know why Satan hates us so much


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I think Satan hates us so much because one time in the pre mortal world he loved us dearly before he rebelled and we didn't follow him, so he feels like we betrayed him. It's always hard when you feel the people you love the most betray you.

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I think Satan never loved. I think he always looked upon all others as a starved wolf looks at all lambs. Perhaps C.S. Lewis illustrated it well at the end of Screwtape's final letter to his nephew, Wormwood, " ...your increasingly and ravenously affectionate uncle, Screwtape.” (His love was always feigned and in reality his ultimate goal always was to consume him). 

Edited by UT.starscoper
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20 minutes ago, UT.starscoper said:

I think Satan never loved. I think he always looked upon all others as a starved wolf looks at all lambs. Perhaps C.S. Lewis illustrated it well at the end of Screwtape's final letter to his nephew, Wormwood, " ...your increasingly and ravenously affectionate uncle, Screwtape.” (His love was always feigned and in reality his ultimate goal always was to consume him). 

He was Son of the Morning though. I bet he was once a good spirit.

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5 minutes ago, Zarahemla said:

He was Son of the Morning though. I bet he was once a good spirit.

Hmmm, that seems like a valid point. Maybe Lucifer was indeed once a good being. Maybe it's valuable to distinguish between he that was upon a time a light bearer and one who forsook that calling and became Satan. Maybe it's valuable to distinguish between the being who no longer exists and the one who took his place? 

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A few observations:

  1. "Good" means "Godly". (I mean functionally, not etymologically.) Ascribing Godly characteristics to Satan is always problematic. In some cases, it is trivially true: God and Satan both exist. God and Satan both communicate to others. God and Satan both represent themselves to mankind as the way, the truth, and the life. But such cases are of no interest (to me). Since Satan and God stand as opposites, characterizing any Satanic thing as Godly seems counterproductive, if not entirely meaningless.
     
  2. What is a "light-bearer" or "son of the morning"? We assume it's some high and holy thing. But that is merely an assumption. Would not the title of "Saint" be a high and holy thing? Yet how many that once bore the title of "Saint" now find themselves entirely outside the kingdom of God? But that does not mean they held some sort of "high office". Perhaps it is equally distressing to realize that they have lost (or spurned) the "mere" title of Saint. No high Church office is necessary to make this tragic. Indeed, the office of President of the Church is small potatoes compared to the actual membership in the kingdom. President, teacher, or hymnbook coordinator, we're all fellow Saints.
     
  3. I suppose in a sense that it is important only what we are, and not what we were. This idea is normally used in conjunction with the teachings about sinning: Whatever we have done is not relevant, only that we have turned our back on that evil. Yet it appears that the same thing works in the other direction: All our belief and all our good works in the past do not make us justified before God if we now rebel.

My own opinion is that Satan does not "love" us in any possible meaningful sense. He may lust after us in the way that Lewis' Screwtape lusted after souls (including Wormwood's). But there is no love there. He is a being of malicious evil. He seeks our misery and destruction, in this life and eternally. For his own personal ambition, he stands openly in opposition to the Father and everything the Father wants for us.

I do not even understand such a being, and frankly, I'm kind of glad for that fact. When I was a boy, I used to imagine how, if I had Satan's ear, I would tell him a thing or two, and how manfully I would resist his voice and tell him what's what, and so forth. But I have not thought that way in many decades. Were I cursed to converse with Satan, I hope that my attitude would be that of the Savior when standing before his false accusers and those who set themselves up as his judges. Satan is the Accuser. I remind myself of this fact when I feel like accusing someone, even political figures. I don't want to be an Accuser. I want no conversation with Satan. I do not want to understand why he does what he does. I don't want to "get inside his head". I want nothing whatsoever to do with him. I want his filth and awfulness to stay as far away from me and my family as I can manage to get it. If ever I have a word with that horribly lost being, I hope and pray it is nothing beyond "Begone!"

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As with many “things” we are taught concerning the various doctrines of The Father, The Son, The Holy Ghost and the Great Plan of Salvation – There are a lot of very important details missing for me.  As a mortal trying to figure out the journey of life – I am not sure that I am that much of an expert even concerning G-d our Father let alone my brother Lucifer.  For much of my life I have though I would rejoice at Satan’s inevitable banishment to “outer darkness” but I sometimes have concluded that when I become more enlightened that such will be of great sorrow to me but even more to my Father.

I do believe that the hatred destroying Satan at his core has more to do with his refusal to forgive than any other single factor.  In other words to rejoice and look forward to sinners being punished and not let off the hook – and all this concerns me.  Not because I think Satan deserves to fall but because how difficult certain and specific forgiveness is for me.  Often my heart rejoices for difficulties suffered by many for their poor choices – thinking it is about time!!!  For every reason that it would seem some would shine a light of scorn at Satan – I see too much of it reflecting back on me. 

I am inclined to believe that before this life I dearly loved the person that was Jesus and his great love and willingness to sacrifice so much for me and so many others – but I also believe I dearly loved the person that was Lucifer.  As much as I believe I will rejoice in Christ and love returning to my Father – I have pondered that I will miss and sorrow over the loss of Lucifer.  I am inclined to think it impossible to separate the two emotions of joy and sorrow.

 

The Traveler

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21 hours ago, Zarahemla said:

Agree? Disagree? Thoughts?

What intrigues me most is that Satan had enough clout in our pre-mortal life that he was able to convince a third part of our brother and sisters to his eternal view. I, personally, do not believe that an individual could be ultimately evil while being in the presence of pure intelligence (God the Father) who encompasses all that is "good." Satan's desires may have actually stemmed from love; although, we read from the Book of Mormon, "And because he had fallen from heaven, and had become miserable forever, he sought also the misery of all mankind." (2 Nephi 2:18).

The wilful rebellion in the presence of glory (intelligence) ultimately leads one to all that is opposite of glory. This individual then becomes envious, jealous, and hateful rather than grateful, content, and loving. So I agree to a point, but I don't believe my spirit ever sided with Satan. I believe he hates because he rejected light and truth and was unwilling to forgive and repent. He is right. His way is right. He is similar to a small child that is unwilling to see their Father knows better, and as such, he gnashes his teeth and is willing to take his anger and misery out on those who he can.

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1 hour ago, Rob Osborn said:

Satan is mad because his plans were found out. I personally believe he had an extensive secret cabal going in heaven and had promised many lies to gain power. His argument is still the same today as it was then- that we should be law unto ourselves and whatever we want should be justified.

 

The problem I have with this thinking is that I have a hard time with the possibility that G-d would cast out a third part of heaven under the condition that they were lied to, deceived and did not really know what they were doing.  I am more inclined to think that Satan and his followers all knew what they were choosing and exactly what the result of their choice would be – and they chose it because they actually desired it.  But to be honest – I also have difficulty with why or how an intelligent being would knowing and in the full light of truth – choose evil and darkness.

Every time I try to put this puzzle together – I am left with the conclusion that there are just too many pieces missing for me to announce – I have much of any idea what is going on.  Sometimes – with this and a great many things; I am inclined that those that think they know the answers – do not really understand the questions.

Please understand I am not trying to be critical – just that I cannot make sense of it.

 

The Traveler

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12 hours ago, bytebear said:

It's important to understand that there were never two plans.  Jesus presented the plan of the Father, and Satan countered it with an alternative plan.  But there was never a bid for the best plan.

 

The more I come to understand G-d’s great plan of salvation and happiness – the more I cannot see any other possibility that would actually work – for anybody.  I have tried to make sense of why Satan opposed the plan – but for all my searching for my 70 + years (yes – I am that old) and listening to others that think they know – nothing makes any sense to me at all.

One thing I think I have learned – that if I start asking questions trying to figure out what it is that others have figured out or somehow come to know – they are not happy at all to share any of their deep secrets or answer any questions and will get a little ticked off should I try to shed any light at all on what it is they know.  This kind of response to questions kind of makes me think they really do not know very much at all and that they are not interested at all in learning any more about it.

 

The Traveler

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On 10/28/2016 at 4:02 PM, Traveler said:

 

The problem I have with this thinking is that I have a hard time with the possibility that G-d would cast out a third part of heaven under the condition that they were lied to, deceived and did not really know what they were doing.  I am more inclined to think that Satan and his followers all knew what they were choosing and exactly what the result of their choice would be – and they chose it because they actually desired it.  But to be honest – I also have difficulty with why or how an intelligent being would knowing and in the full light of truth – choose evil and darkness.

Every time I try to put this puzzle together – I am left with the conclusion that there are just too many pieces missing for me to announce – I have much of any idea what is going on.  Sometimes – with this and a great many things; I am inclined that those that think they know the answers – do not really understand the questions.

Please understand I am not trying to be critical – just that I cannot make sense of it.

 

The Traveler

Lets liken it to a mob. The deeper you get into the heirarchy of a mob the more lies and deceit you have. Everyone is being led on and lied to in some degree. Tgis in turn leads to more lies and deception and pretty soon everyones watching their own backs. Evil people really have one desire and its selfish control over another. They will thus use each other to get their own gains. Organized crime (like the Gadianton robbers) most closely resembles how Satan works. Even though a 1/3 the host of heaven followed Satan, they were all in turn part of the lies and deceit themselves, part of lies and deceit above and below them.

 

I have had dreams about going to hell and seeing Satans kingdom. It most closely resembles gangs and organized crime rings. Thus, it makes perfect sense that the greatest evil spoken of in the BOM was the Gadianton robbers and their secret combinations. At various times they made up vastly large poulations. Thus it makes sense that such a large part joined Satan in the beginning- the promise of power over another and enslaving them was too tempting. That was a major drive of the Lamanites for most of their spoken existance.

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10 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

Lets liken it to a mob. The deeper you get into the heirarchy of a mob the more lies and deceit you have. Everyone is being led on and lied to in some degree. Tgis in turn leads to more lies and deception and pretty soon everyones watching their own backs. Evil people really have one desire and its selfish control over another. They will thus use each other to get their own gains. Organized crime (like the Gadianton robbers) most closely resembles how Satan works. Even though a 1/3 the host of heaven followed Satan, they were all in turn part of the lies and deceit themselves, part of lies and deceit above and below them.

 

I have had dreams about going to hell and seeing Satans kingdom. It most closely resembles gangs and organized crime rings. Thus, it makes perfect sense that the greatest evil spoken of in the BOM was the Gadianton robbers and their secret combinations. At various times they made up vastly large poulations. Thus it makes sense that such a large part joined Satan in the beginning- the promise of power over another and enslaving them was too tempting. That was a major drive of the Lamanites for most of their spoken existance.

 

But with a mob the deeper you get into the hierarchy, the more those pressing and moving the mob know that the lies and deceit are lies and deceit.   I am not sure that such lies and deceit would work in the presents of the light of truth that surrounds G-d.  That in the presents of G-d all lies and deceit would be obvious to everyone.  And even more I would see our loving Father sitting down individually with each son and daughter revealing in truth all the consequences that will follow. 

Thus I cannot fathom that there would never come a time when those that follow Lucifer would think – “This is not what I want – I am so sorry that things have turned out this way – I wish I could go back, have a do over and change my mistakes.  Rather Satan and his followers would not change or want to change anything – fully knowing what follows in all of eternity.

With all I understand of the mercy of G-d – I cannot understand that there would ever not be help for anyone that would change what evil they have done.  But I still cannot understand why Satan and his followers would not ever want to change anything of the Hell that has resulted from their poor choices.

 

The Traveler

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5 hours ago, Traveler said:

 

But with a mob the deeper you get into the hierarchy, the more those pressing and moving the mob know that the lies and deceit are lies and deceit.   I am not sure that such lies and deceit would work in the presents of the light of truth that surrounds G-d.  That in the presents of G-d all lies and deceit would be obvious to everyone.  And even more I would see our loving Father sitting down individually with each son and daughter revealing in truth all the consequences that will follow. 

Thus I cannot fathom that there would never come a time when those that follow Lucifer would think – “This is not what I want – I am so sorry that things have turned out this way – I wish I could go back, have a do over and change my mistakes.  Rather Satan and his followers would not change or want to change anything – fully knowing what follows in all of eternity.

With all I understand of the mercy of G-d – I cannot understand that there would ever not be help for anyone that would change what evil they have done.  But I still cannot understand why Satan and his followers would not ever want to change anything of the Hell that has resulted from their poor choices.

 

The Traveler

Ever wonder why most prison gang members in maximum security prisons are content and unwilling to change in the face of such misery and captivity?

The path to the darkside is fraught with such self deception that one becomes lost to truth they inflict on themselves. This is why Lucifer knew not the mind of God. He was sure he is right, but its all a lie. It just leads to captivity.

The study of evil has led me to know that the temptations become greater and greater as one sinks deeper into darkness. Each new desire becomes more immoral while at the same time looks better to fulfill self grandeurism, lust and pride. The alure to this darkness becomes a deceitful trap that further entangles one into chains and captivity until agency is no longer available. An analogy of this is a drug addict who gets in so deep that at some point they not only are willing to sell themselves for the drug but also forfeit and endanger their own children. I have seen this firsthand where a close family member decided to forfeit their rights to marriage and children for one more high.

Entire wars such as WW2 were fought over pride. So dark did the Nazi regime become that they were willing to trade their souls for the idealism of grandeur. Satan was made manifest in them. We need look no further than evil in the world to know Satan and his angels firsthand, they are the same. The question back to you is why do so many choose immorality, lust, and pride when true happiness in doing the right is so apparent and readily available? Perhaps it makes it easier to understand why so many chose to follow Satan to begin with.

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6 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

Ever wonder why most prison gang members in maximum security prisons are content and unwilling to change in the face of such misery and captivity?

The path to the darkside is fraught with such self deception that one becomes lost to truth they inflict on themselves. This is why Lucifer knew not the mind of God. He was sure he is right, but its all a lie. It just leads to captivity.

The study of evil has led me to know that the temptations become greater and greater as one sinks deeper into darkness. Each new desire becomes more immoral while at the same time looks better to fulfill self grandeurism, lust and pride. The alure to this darkness becomes a deceitful trap that further entangles one into chains and captivity until agency is no longer available. An analogy of this is a drug addict who gets in so deep that at some point they not only are willing to sell themselves for the drug but also forfeit and endanger their own children. I have seen this firsthand where a close family member decided to forfeit their rights to marriage and children for one more high.

Entire wars such as WW2 were fought over pride. So dark did the Nazi regime become that they were willing to trade their souls for the idealism of grandeur. Satan was made manifest in them. We need look no further than evil in the world to know Satan and his angels firsthand, they are the same. The question back to you is why do so many choose immorality, lust, and pride when true happiness in doing the right is so apparent and readily available? Perhaps it makes it easier to understand why so many chose to follow Satan to begin with.

 

I do not disagree with what you are saying - but I think there is more to the story - more pieces to the puzzle sort-of-speaking.  Actually the sins you are talking about really do not end a person's agency.  Even the worse of those that commit the sins you are talking about will be resurrected to a kingdom of glory and can repent and even be resurrected Celestial.  But there is more to the story of the pre-existence - Lucifer fell and became Satan.  Satan and all his followers were all spirit beings that were not subject to the flesh and blood of mortality.  Your description of evil is a description of the natural man – that despite all desires for and being “trapped” by sin is redeemable – if not for Celestial for some divine glory that is not outer darkness.

The evil that destroys agency is called the denial of the Holy Ghost.  As I understand one must stand in the full light of truth and deny that truth.

I agree that sin (as well as conversion to good) is not a single choice but a process of choices. 

I believe that the first choice to freedom, light, good and to become one with G-d is the choice of discipline.  That would mean that the first choice toward evil, bondage and away from G-d is the exact opposite – the choice to be undisciplined. 

Repetitiveness is a necessary element of discipline and is why so much of the commandments requires what would seem to be unlimited repetitiveness.  Like learning to play the piano – success requires repetitive practice.  I believe Satan was unwilling to repetitively practice goodness and be so disciplined – I do not think he was willing to take this first step of discipline – But I believe discipline is only the first step – there are more but I have learned that if the first step of discipline is not acceptable – there is no reason to consider any other steps.

 

 

The Traveler

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On October 27, 2016 at 0:50 AM, Zarahemla said:

I think Satan hates us so much because one time in the pre mortal world he loved us dearly before he rebelled and we didn't follow him, so he feels like we betrayed him. It's always hard when you feel the people you love the most betray you.

Well there seems to bevthat element or something similar to many of the falling aways thatvhas happened on this earth, so it is certainly not unreasonable.

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On 10/27/2016 at 2:50 AM, Zarahemla said:

I think Satan hates us so much because one time in the pre mortal world he loved us dearly before he rebelled and we didn't follow him, so he feels like we betrayed him. It's always hard when you feel the people you love the most betray you.

And that is as clear a manifestation of pride that i can think of!

In comparison, see how Jesus served those who betrayed Him by atoning for our sins.

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1 hour ago, CV75 said:

And that is as clear a manifestation of pride that i can think of!

In comparison, see how Jesus served those who betrayed Him by atoning for our sins.

When I saw your post, I began to wonder and ponder.  Perhapse Satan does not love us any more because he just is not willing to put forth the effort it takes to love others when it get a little difficult to do so.  But then if someone is not willing to work at it when it gets difficult - is it (was it) really love????

 

The Traveler

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1 hour ago, Traveler said:

When I saw your post, I began to wonder and ponder.  Perhapse Satan does not love us any more because he just is not willing to put forth the effort it takes to love others when it get a little difficult to do so.  But then if someone is not willing to work at it when it gets difficult - is it (was it) really love????

The Traveler

I'm sure that is part of it. I think that intelligences and spirits undergo developmental types and stages of love ("grace for grace"), much like a mortal person does from infancy to adulthood. In the less-developed types and stages of love, it is vulnerable to pride, jealousy, insecurity and other selfish motives that can interfere with and even destroy it. Pride can also interfere with the proper development of the highest form of love. Sometimes expectations accompany love (in this case, the expectation of glory), and if they are not not met, love then turns to hate.

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On 10/31/2016 at 0:29 AM, Rob Osborn said:

<<website Link>>

This website purports to post the writings of Harry Edgar Baker.  Here was a description of him.

Quote

Baker was an LDS Church member and polygamist in the early 20th century. He was apparently never excommunicated, despite receiving unauthorized revelation and being married polygamously after the 1890 Manifesto.

This came from a website that listed the "founder" of the LDS church as 'Brigham young'.  So, I don't know how dependable it is.  But what is "unauthorized revelation" supposed to mean?

If it were true revelation then it is authorized by God.  What other authorization is required?  I believe it would be more accurate to say "false revelation".  The fact is that I read most of the two revelations he supposedly received.  I got bored.  There was nothing there that isn't known to Latter-Day Saints.  And other stuff was just fluff that didn't mean anything.  So, I'm not sure what these people who post it are trying to do.

Then we go down further and find out that it is a website designed to destroy testimony of the church.  They claim that today's church is fallen and is no longer led by an inspired man.  What are we to make of such a website?

Edited by Guest
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1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

This website purports to post the writings of Harry Edgar Baker.  Here was a description of him.

This came from a website that listed the "founder" of the LDS church as 'Brigham young'.  So, I don't know how dependable it is.  But what is "unauthorized revelation" supposed to mean?

If it were true revelation then it is authorized by God.  What other authorization is required?  I believe it would be more accurate to say "false revelation".  The fact is that I read most of the two revelations he supposedly received.  I got bored.  There was nothing there that isn't known to Latter-Day Saints.  And other stuff was just fluff that didn't mean anything.  So, I'm not sure what these people who post it are trying to do.

Then we go down further and find out that it is a website designed to destroy testimony of the church.  They claim that today's church is fallen and is no longer led by an inspired man.  What are we to make of such a website?

I never said it was scripture. I said it was an interesting read and had a few gems in it that I thought were true. Even Mark Twain wasnt a prophet yet had a few interesting gems himself.

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1 hour ago, CV75 said:

I'm sure that is part of it. I think that intelligences and spirits undergo developmental types and stages of love ("grace for grace"), much like a mortal person does from infancy to adulthood. In the less-developed types and stages of love, it is vulnerable to pride, jealousy, insecurity and other selfish motives that can interfere with and even destroy it. Pride can also interfere with the proper development of the highest form of love. Sometimes expectations accompany love (in this case, the expectation of glory), and if they are not not met, love then turns to hate.

Sometimes it would seem that it is believed that we come preset with love and pride.  I am inclined that both love and pride are skills that must be practiced and developed.  Perhaps even conflicting skills that developing one would exclude the skill set of the other.  Anyway - something I intend to consider more deeply.  Thanks for your input.

 

The Traveler

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