Best Post-Election Reaction


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25 minutes ago, unixknight said:

I can tell that's sarcasm, but I can't tell which thought you're expressing...  its it that you think I was making a statement about Trump bigotry, or are you using irony to anticipate what liberals would say?

Unfortunately, I'm pretty sure the liberals' next move would have been to make the lazy and incompetent protected classes.

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2 hours ago, unixknight said:

This is an oversimplification of what happened and why.  It basically accuses every person who voted for Trump of endorsing him and everything he represents, whether good or bad.  I find that extremely troubling because that same standard isn't being applied to the other half of the country who voted for a scheming manipulator who was known to have com promised the security of the United States and who was complicit in her husband's own incidents of assault against women.  The truth is that we had two horrible candidates and the reasons why could fill a book.  What we were left with was two candidates and most people hated both.  The majority of people who voted for Trump were more voting against Clinton than for him.

Understood. I wasn't much of a Clinton-defender prior to Tuesday, and there's certainly no point trying to start now. Yes, our options were historically terrible. I realize that many genuinely good people voted for Trump for reasons that they felt were justified. The fact that any decent human being could look at Trump and the culture that he has perpetuated and still vote for him escapes my comprehension, but I get it, the other option was far from great as well.

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It was a choice between that or endorsing a woman who was complicit in the same kinds of acts by a man who she was married to.  So no, that wasn't what Trump voters were saying at all.  This is disingenuous and does a disservice to good people who had a crappy choice in front of them and did the best they could.

I'm talking about more than just actions (and in Hillary's case, reactions). I'm talking about a culture of misogyny and belittlement that has been actively perpetuated by Donald Trump. Clinton's actions are indefensible, but Bill never made any attempts to normalize his behavior and publicly body-shame women (both of which Trump is guilty of). Clinton tainted his name and his legacy. Trump has tainted our culture by empowering those who believe that women are inferior to men, that they are sexual objects who should fit a certain mold. In that sense, Trump has already done far more damage to women than Clinton ever could. 

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No they didn't.  They told Hispanic Americans (like my own father) that if you want to be here then obey the laws like the rest of us.  Nobody honestly expects Trump to make an attempt to round up all the illegals and deport them.  Logistical reasons alone make that nigh impossible and it would be political suicide to even try.  The people who voted for Trump know this.

Trump started his campaign by calling (most) illegal immigrants rapists, thieves, and murderers. If you're a legal immigrant, how do you suppose it makes you feel to know that a presidential candidate feels that way about your countrymen? There are plenty of Hispanic Americans who resent the illegal immigrants who skirt around the law. But don't mistake that resentment for dehumanization, which is what Trump effectively did on day 1 of his campaign. And a significant number of Trump voters ate it up because it fed into their own prejudices. Previous Republican presidents, congressmen, and candidates have advocated for tighter border security, but they have done so in a way that doesn't diminish the humanity of the people they're trying to keep out of this country. This isn't about policy, it's about rhetoric. Rhetoric can divide or unite this country in ways that policy never has or will. That's the issue with Trump.

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No they didn't.  They voted for a guy who promised to put political correctness aside and take a more honest look at terrorism and where it comes from.

Again, rhetoric matters. I've said on this forum before that the current administration is sometimes too soft in their rhetoric towards Islamic extremism. However, this is an issue that has to be treated delicately because it effects the lives of so many Americans. As much as I hated Bush, he did a great job of trying to protect the Muslim community from hate and prejudice in the days following 9/11. Arguably, his efforts were in vain, but he gets points for trying. But the fact that Islamophobia is still very widespread today makes it vitally important for politicians to be careful about the rhetoric they use. There's nothing wrong with identifying the true source of the problem, but at the same time you have to recognize that you have a duty to protect ALL of your citizens, and that includes Muslims. As an atheist, I have beef with religion in general. That includes Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, Mormonism, etc. But I can separate my dislike of religious ideologies from the people who practice them. That's the barrier that our country has to break through, and Trump has done nothing to accomplish that. He rails against the ideology but refuses to stand up for the Americans who practice that ideology peacefully. In a country that already has a tense relationship with Muslims, that's a huge problem.

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No they didn't, but even if they did, anyone who supports Barack "Republicans can ride in the backseat" Obama has been saying that for years.

Well the tables have turned now, haven't they? Here's an exercise for you. Do a search on Youtube for "Obama heckler" and "Trump heckler", watch videos for both, and see if you can identify a difference in how each man treats dissenters. I'll wait.

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I refuse to be guilt tripped for being glad Clinton was defeated. 

Good, because if you read my post again, that's the opposite of what I was trying to do. In the interest of maintaining civility, I'll say this, I sincerely hope that Donald Trump can close the divide created by this election. For better or worse, we're stuck with him. I can only hope that a significant portion of his campaign tactics were a farce and that we'll see a more balanced picture of Donald Trump moving forward. Congratulations to you and to everyone else who either wanted to see him win or see Hillary lose. You deserve to run your victory laps. Just try not to run over the rest of us in the process. That's all I ask.

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This is the most offensive phrase in your post, my friend.  It's sexist, racist and (dare I say it?) heterophobic all in one line.  Before you marginalize that demographic, I'd remind you that it was straight white men who passed every single Constitutional Amendment to protect minorities and women.  It was straight white men who created the Constitution in the first place, and it was straight white men who, by a majority, elected Obama in 2008 and 1012.  So I guess maybe, just maybe, straight white men ARE capable of understanding. [/quote]

If you read my statement more carefully, you'll note the word complete before the word understanding. Yes, we as human beings are perfectly capable of showing empathy and compassion towards those with whom we don't have shared experiences. One of the finest traits a man (or woman) can possess is the willingness to advocate for something that doesn't affect him/her directly. That being said, I don't know what it's like to live life as a woman in America. Or a homosexual, or a non-white citizen. That's all I meant by that statement. As a straight white male, I personally have no reason to be fearful or heartbroken over the result of this election, but I'm fearful and heartbroken for the people in my life who don't fit my demographic. That's not marginalizing my demographic, it's being mindful of issues greater than myself. The white men who wrote our Constitution, amended it to equalize women and minorities, and voted Obama into office twice had that same mindfulness. I'm glad to see we agree on that. Moving on....

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I think the most insidious damage inflicted by modern liberal philosophy is the self loathing it's programmed into people of a specific race, sex and sexual preference while claiming to be non-racist, tolerant and non-sexist.

Judging by what has happened on some college campuses recently, I'm inclined to agree that liberal white guilt has gotten out of hand. There is very real prejudice in some elements of conservative America, but the answer to that is not more prejudice. As a liberal, it's very frustrating to see young people lose sight of that.

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As a man of biracial origin, am I therefore allowed an opinion here, or would I have to either go get a sex change or hang out in gay bars first?

Opinions are color-blind, gender-blind, and gender identity-blind (is that a thing?). As I said, you can empathize with and advocate for a certain demographic(s) without representing them yourself. I think you misunderstood my previous statement, and that's okay. It's actually not the first time I've had to explain it on these forums.

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This is a reasonable statement but let's temper it a bit with reason.  Yes, we should be compassionate but we also need to be mindful of the truth.  I'm not going to feel sadness for someone who works themselves up into an emotional storm over nothing.  I can feel sympathy but I won't validate the cause.

That's fair. I truly hope that the emotional reactions to this election result are unfounded and that we can go back to our regularly-scheduled level of cynicism sometime soon. I guess time will tell, though. I can't shake the feeling that race relations in this country just jumped back 8 years, but I truly hope I'm wrong.

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I'm sorry to hear that someone close to you is in suffering, but if you really care about them you'll help them gain a more constructive perspective rather than enabling them.

Thank you. It's been a very rough couple of days for my wife. She still has some grief to work through, then we'll start healing together.

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And one other thing... my wife voted for Trump.  It's also disingenuous and short sighted to assume that women all think alike.

Agreed. As a Texas resident, I know plenty of women who voted for Trump. I try my best not to accuse people of voting against their own interests, because everyone has different reasons for voting the way they do. This election seems to have hit non-Trumper women especially hard for reasons that I explained earlier, but I respect that many women feel differently.

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14 minutes ago, Godless said:

Judging by what has happened on some college campuses recently, I'm inclined to agree that liberal white guilt has gotten out of hand. There is very real prejudice in some elements of conservative America, but the answer to that is not more prejudice. As a liberal, it's very frustrating to see young people lose sight of that.

Unfortunately that is one of the take a ways that very few will get...  You can't heal the issues of Racism, Sexism, Etc-ism, by demonizing, scapegoating or otherwise pulling down some other group or Ism...  All you do is rile them up and ensure that they are going to push back with everything they got...  Ensuring that the pendulum continues to swing from one extreme to the other.

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37 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

Unfortunately that is one of the take a ways that very few will get...  You can't heal the issues of Racism, Sexism, Etc-ism, by demonizing, scapegoating or otherwise pulling down some other group or Ism...  All you do is rile them up and ensure that they are going to push back with everything they got...  Ensuring that the pendulum continues to swing from one extreme to the other.

I've said it here many times before... you can't heal racism by using racist methods.

All over the news on Wednesday morning (as in past midnight) - "The white male uneducated...".   They just LOOOOVVEEED saying that.

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52 minutes ago, Godless said:

The fact that any decent human being could look at Trump and the culture that he has perpetuated and still vote for him escapes my comprehension, but I get it, the other option was far from great as well.

My son was telling me about an interesting theory that says that a lot of the fiery rhetoric that came from Trump during the campaign was calculated, and may not represent his actual views.  I don't know whether that's true or not but I certainly wouldn't put it past him to do so.  That said, it would also mean that he isn't as bad as he might seem, though I wouldn't argue that point because I just don't know.

52 minutes ago, Godless said:

Trump has tainted our culture by empowering those who believe that women are inferior to men, that they are sexual objects who should fit a certain mold. In that sense, Trump has already done far more damage to women than Clinton ever could.

How has he empowered them? If I were a sexist thinker my personal power would be the same today as it was a week ago.  You could argue that, on some level, he's validated that kind of perspective and I won't disagree with you there.  Even so, I have faith that the majority of Conservatives do not share that view in any case.

52 minutes ago, Godless said:

Trump started his campaign by calling (most) illegal immigrants rapists, thieves, and murderers. If you're a legal immigrant, how do you suppose it makes you feel to know that a presidential candidate feels that way about your countrymen? There are plenty of Hispanic Americans who resent the illegal immigrants who skirt around the law. But don't mistake that resentment for dehumanization, which is what Trump effectively did on day 1 of his campaign. And a significant number of Trump voters ate it up because it fed into their own prejudices. Previous Republican presidents, congressmen, and candidates have advocated for tighter border security, but they have done so in a way that doesn't diminish the humanity of the people they're trying to keep out of this country. This isn't about policy, it's about rhetoric. Rhetoric can divide or unite this country in ways that policy never has or will. That's the issue with Trump.

I see this as a reaction to the rhetoric that says that merely wanting a secure border makes one racist.  My own father (who is latino) called me a racist right to my face when I commented that border security needed to be tightened, and in so doing caused a rift between us that has yet to fully heal.  I try to forgive him but I haven't yet been able to.  I am a product of a mixed marriage and racism isn't in my nature and I would have thought my own dad would understand me well enough to know it.  I see what happened here culturally as the same thing.  Good, honest people who are truly interested in security have been dishonestly branded as hateful bigots by a culture that has grown far too comfortable using labels as a debate tactic, and Trump's success is a reflection of that sense of outrage.  I don't agree with his statements on that, but I can understand why they resonated with so many.  If you're gonna call them racists anyway...

52 minutes ago, Godless said:

Again, rhetoric matters. I've said on this forum before that the current administration is sometimes too soft in their rhetoric towards Islamic extremism. However, this is an issue that has to be treated delicately because it effects the lives of so many Americans. As much as I hated Bush, he did a great job of trying to protect the Muslim community from hate and prejudice in the days following 9/11. Arguably, his efforts were in vain, but he gets points for trying. But the fact that Islamophobia is still very widespread today makes it vitally important for politicians to be careful about the rhetoric they use. There's nothing wrong with identifying the true source of the problem, but at the same time you have to recognize that you have a duty to protect ALL of your citizens, and that includes Muslims. As an atheist, I have beef with religion in general. That includes Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, Mormonism, etc. But I can separate my dislike of religious ideologies from the people who practice them. That's the barrier that our country has to break through, and Trump has done nothing to accomplish that. He rails against the ideology but refuses to stand up for the Americans who practice that ideology peacefully. In a country that already has a tense relationship with Muslims, that's a huge problem.

I agree, but he has also made an effort (admittedly not as much as Bush) to differentiate between terrorists and peaceful people.  That said, I see this as a similar reaction to being branded racist for merely acknowledging that contemporary terrorism is almost always perpetrated by Muslims.  We have a left wing that deliberately pretends not to see it and vilifies anyone who doesn't follow suit.  That generates the same kind of outrage as the issue above regarding borders.  I honestly believe most of the people who support Trump aren't so extreme, but are glad to see someone standing up to political correctness and spitting right in its eye.

52 minutes ago, Godless said:

Well the tables have turned now, haven't they? Here's an exercise for you. Do a search on Youtube for "Obama heckler" and "Trump heckler", watch videos for both, and see if you can identify a difference in how each man treats dissenters. I'll wait.

Wait for what?  For me to go see Trump supporters have hecklers removed while Obama ignores them?  Newsflash, my friend, bullying comes in all kinds of flavors and tactics.  How about people who hurl words like "racist" or "bigot" at anyone who wants border walls or tighter immigration rules?  What about "homophobe" or "transphobe" as the new favorites to be used against anyone who doesn't get on the bandwagon?  What about people being assaulted for "cultural appropriation?"  Maybe Trump's a bully, but only of a different type.  We're still surrounded by them.

52 minutes ago, Godless said:

Good, because if you read my post again, that's the opposite of what I was trying to do. In the interest of maintaining civility, I'll say this, I sincerely hope that Donald Trump can close the divide created by this election. For better or worse, we're stuck with him. I can only hope that a significant portion of his campaign tactics were a farce and that we'll see a more balanced picture of Donald Trump moving forward. Congratulations to you and to everyone else who either wanted to see him win or see Hillary lose. You deserve to run your victory laps. Just try not to run over the rest of us in the process. That's all I ask.

I don't see how anyone's being run over.  Sure, there will always be gloaters after an election, but it seems like you want us all to feel bad for those who are really really sad that Trump won...  Why?  This is our system of government.  Every 4 years about half the country gets what they want and the other half doesn't.  Period.  Like I mentioned in my last post, I have a close friend who's in all kinds of turmoil.  I don't gloat and I don't rub it in... but at the same time I won't share his sadness.  I think most of his anger comes from, as I mentioned, a news media that was stirring people up and this is the aftermath.  It was the same when Conservatives started freaking out in 2008.  There was no cause for it then and there's none for it now. 

52 minutes ago, Godless said:

If you read my statement more carefully, you'll note the word complete before the word understanding.

I read it, and I got it the first time.  My objection to that statement wasn't because I somehow misunderstood you and thought you meant white guys couldn't understand at all.  My objection is that it's still a comment based on identity politics.  If you agree that a person of any race or sex can understand other peoples' pain, then all that matters is that we can understand each other as human beings.  Period.

he left is constantly accusing the right of sexism, racism and so on and yet it's the left that is utterly obsessed with these traits and sees absolutely everything through the lens that says we're all so different.  MLK believed in color blindness, and I truly believe he would be heartbroken if he were alive today and saw the way people who claim his legacy are behaving.

52 minutes ago, Godless said:

Judging by what has happened on some college campuses recently, I'm inclined to agree that liberal white guilt has gotten out of hand. There is very real prejudice in some elements of conservative America, but the answer to that is not more prejudice. As a liberal, it's very frustrating to see young people lose sight of that.

It's good we have common ground here.  I'm hoping that we'll see that pendulum start settling down in the middle soon.

52 minutes ago, Godless said:

Opinions are color-blind, gender-blind, and gender identity-blind (is that a thing?). As I said, you can empathize with and advocate for a certain demographic(s) without representing them yourself. I think you misunderstood my previous statement, and that's okay. It's actually not the first time I've had to explain it on these forums.

Hopefully my response above clarified my side as well.  I often find myself having to explain it to my left wing friends too.

52 minutes ago, Godless said:

That's fair. I truly hope that the emotional reactions to this election result are unfounded and that we can go back to our regularly-scheduled level of cynicism sometime soon. I guess time will tell, though. I can't shake the feeling that race relations in this country just jumped back 8 years, but I truly hope I'm wrong.

I hope they have, because the way I see it, race relations have deteriorated over the last 8 years.  The race-baiters have been out in force and we're more racially divided now than we were when Obama got elected.  At first, many of us Conservatives were disappointed that a Liberal was elected, but at the same time delighted that at least we'd gotten to the point where a black man could be President.  We hoped that finally the healing over racism was truly underway and this wouldn't be a thing anymore.  8 years later, and we have race riots again (usually in reactions to anger with the police), we have colleges allowing students to segregate themselves, we have "cultural appropriation," the outrage over which is really just the new face of segregation and no, it isn't coming from the Right. 

So yeah, I'd LOVE to get back to 8 years ago.

52 minutes ago, Godless said:

Agreed. As a Texas resident, I know plenty of women who voted for Trump. I try my best not to accuse people of voting against their own interests, because everyone has different reasons for voting the way they do. This election seems to have hit non-Trumper women especially hard for reasons that I explained earlier, but I respect that many women feel differently.

But here's the thing, man... If Clinton had won, you wouldn't see Conservatives all over the country turning into emotional basket cases over it, and it isn't because we don't think she's hideously evil.

Dude, I have nothing against you personally so please don't take this as an attack... I'm just gonna be blunt because I feel like I need to be very, very clear.  You guys have got to stop this wallowing in self misery.  I'm serious.  You're demanding sympathy and deference to people whose biggest emotional trauma is... the candidate they didn't like got elected.  And yes, that's all this is.  The media accuses every Republican of all the evils Trump is being accused of.  Even if he's every bit the monster CNN and HuffPo have you convinced he is, he wouldn't get away with doing monstrous things because, if you believe what you say about the voters being mostly good, honest people with a bad choice, then you know we wouldn't stand for it.

Relax.  Remind your wife that America is strong, it isn't going anywhere, and that the vast majority of people in it are good, honest people who want what's best for everybody, regardless of whom they voted for.  :)

 

Edited by unixknight
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7 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

I've said it here many times before... you can't heal racism by using racist methods.

All over the news on Wednesday morning (as in past midnight) - "The white male uneducated...".   They just LOOOOVVEEED saying that.

 

And they accuse Conservatives of being elitist... :huh:

 

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One of my friends in FB just demanded that I apologize to all the LGBTs and minorities for setting history back 50 years.  She said they are all now in danger.  What's more, she got many of our mutual friends several of them LDS reacting to her post with "Likes" and "Loves".  So yeah... the clobbering continues.

But, that's not the best post-election reaction... the best post-election reaction is... one of those mutual friends who is LDS who also posted about how she is really disgusted with America yesterday posted today that she is going to give the President-Elect a chance.

There's hope, folks!

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5 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

One of my friends in FB just demanded that I apologize to all the LGBTs and minorities for setting history back 50 years.  She said they are all now in danger.  What's more, she got many of our mutual friends several of them LDS reacting to her post with "Likes" and "Loves".  So yeah... the clobbering continues.

But, that's not the best post-election reaction... the best post-election reaction is... one of those mutual friends who is LDS who also posted about how she is really disgusted with America yesterday posted today that she is going to give the President-Elect a chance.

There's hope, folks!

The clobbering is gonna get a lot worse.  People who wake up in the morning looking to be victims will have far more ammo (even if it is imaginary) than ever before.

As for those willing to give him a chance... That's great to hear, but I can't help wondering how long that will last before something happens, however slight, that excuses them to go back to screaming as usual.

 

 

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4 hours ago, Godless said:

I just ran into this article, which is great because it'll save me a bit of typing here. In short, many of the women in my life are hurting pretty badly this week, including some right-of-center LDS family members. This isn't about our candidate losing (many of us weren't overly fond of Hillary). We've lost elections before. It stings, but life goes on. This election result brings with it a unique pain in the fact that half of Americans knew the toxicity of the man they were voting for and voted for him anyway. They told women that a man can ridicule them, say vulgar things about them, and flippantly condone sexual assault and still be elected president. They told Hispanic Americans that it's okay that their counrymen are about to be herded like cattle and sent back to the squalor from whence they came. They told Muslim Americans that they aren't real Americans, that the people of their home nations aren't worth saving because terrorism. They told our children that it's okay to bully and ridicule people who don't agree with you.

 

To me, the hard thing is precisely what @anatess2 is gloating about:  The last major political party to (at least superficially) stand for righteousness and honesty and honor in a presidential candidate, has just officially said that it doesn't matter any more.  A majority of the nation, Democrats (who we expected) as well as Republicans (who we didn't). has now rejected the principles underlying D&C 98:8-10 as irrelevant to good government.  The Clintons lost this election, but in a larger more (or less?) ideological way--we are all Clintonites now.

From a more politically-minded standpoint:  I think Trump's victory does force certain elements of the Democratic coalition to confront a reality they had believed they'd never run into:  That the largess and penchant for self-immolation that they've been seeing from the "majority" culture in this nation, has limits.  Few other nations would have voluntarily made the sort of accommodations for outsiders, that have been demanded of Americans these past two decades.

Even then, though:  I think it's striking how little we can actually be sure about what Trump is planning to actually do with regard to immigration or pretty much anything else.  Obama, it was said, served as a sort of blank screen onto which people could project their own desires and agendas (and fears)--because he had said so little.  Trump, by having said so much (much of it mutually contradictory), has achieved more-or-less the same effect.

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32 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

A majority of the nation, Democrats (who we expected) as well as Republicans (who we didn't). has now rejected the principles underlying D&C 98:8-10 as irrelevant to good government.

It's all relative; the last good man to lead anything isn't ready to retake His throne quite yet, so we're stuck with a lot less.  Of the ones with actual potential to be the next leader, we supported the best we could find at each stage, within the system as it exists.

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9 minutes ago, NightSG said:

It's all relative; the last good man to lead anything isn't ready to retake His throne quite yet, so we're stuck with a lot less.  Of the ones with actual potential to be the next leader, we supported the best we could find at each stage, within the system as it exists.  [Emphasis added.]

Are you sure about that?

We forget that if we are righteous the Lord will either not suffer our enemies to come upon us—and this is the special promise to the inhabitants of the land of the Americas (see 2 Ne. 1:7)—or he will fight our battles for us (Ex. 14:14; D&C 98:37, to name only two references of many). --Spencer W. Kimball

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Guest Godless
37 minutes ago, unixknight said:

My son was telling me about an interesting theory that says that a lot of the fiery rhetoric that came from Trump during the campaign was calculated, and may not represent his actual views.  I don't know whether that's true or not but I certainly wouldn't put it past him to do so.  That said, it would also mean that he isn't as bad as he might seem, though I wouldn't argue that point because I just don't know.

I've actually had the same theory all along as well, believe it or not. I have two concerns, however.

1) Trump's grand stage play during the campaign may not have implications for his actions as president, but it added a ton of fuel to a culture war that has been heating up for a while. You may argue that it started with Obama, and you'll get no argument from me, but the proper response isn't to fan the flames even more. The end result is that Trump is now going to be the president of a country that is horribly divided because of his rhetoric. I don't see how he can talk us down from that. 

2) What if your son and I are wrong? I suspected that this whole campaign might be a farce, but I wasn't willing to bet my vote on it. That's a huge gamble if you ask me. And even if we were right, see item 1. The damage was already done before he took office. His campaign premise of "Make America Great Again" was a self-fulfilling prophesy. Prior to this election cycle, I had no doubt that this is a great nation filled with great people. I now see that we have some work to do. We're still a great nation, but this election has broken us in a way that, in my opinion, previous elections have not.

37 minutes ago, unixknight said:

How has he empowered them? If I were a sexist thinker my personal power would be the same today as it was a week ago.  You could argue that, on some level, he's validated that kind of perspective and I won't disagree with you there.  

Validation is the first step toward empowerment. 

 

37 minutes ago, unixknight said:

I see this as a reaction to the rhetoric that says that merely wanting a secure border makes one racist.  My own father (who is latino) called me a racist right to my face when I commented that border security needed to be tightened, and in so doing caused a rift between us that has yet to fully heal.  I try to forgive him but I haven't yet been able to.  I am a product of a mixed marriage and racism isn't in my nature and I would have thought my own dad would understand me well enough to know it.  I see what happened here culturally as the same thing.  Good, honest people who are truly interested in security have been dishonestly branded as hateful bigots by a culture that has grown far too comfortable using labels as a debate tactic, and Trump's success is a reflection of that sense of outrage.  I don't agree with his statements on that, but I can understand why they resonated with so many.  If you're gonna call them racists anyway...

I'm sorry to hear about you and your father, I truly am. Even as a liberal, I understand the need for secure borders and enforcement of legal immigration methods. At the same time, it's important not to demonize those who have come here illegally or may try to do so in the future. Many of them are simply trying to build better lives for themselves and their families. I know that many conservatives like you understand that, and it's unacceptable that bigotry is the automatic accusation when the topic comes up. However, I feel that there are those (like my own grandfather) who use this issue as an excuse for their own xenophobic, racist views, and Trump gave them validation on day one of his candidacy. As with most issues, the correct path lies somewhere in the middle of the two extremes that get the most attention.

 

37 minutes ago, unixknight said:

I agree, but he has also made an effort (admittedly not as much as Bush) to differentiate between terrorists and peaceful people.  That said, I see this as a similar reaction to being branded racist for merely acknowledging that contemporary terrorism is almost always perpetrated by Muslims.  We have a left wing that deliberately pretends not to see it and vilifies anyone who doesn't follow suit.  That generates the same kind of outrage as the issue above regarding borders.  I honestly believe most of the people who support Trump aren't so extreme, but are glad to see someone standing up to political correctness and spitting right in its eye.

It's a delicate issue, to be sure. FWIW, I don't necessarily think Trump has done or said anything inherently wrong on this issue (though I disagree with the idea that we should stop all Muslims from entering the country). I think, like Bush, nothing Trump can say will change the minds of those who are already pre-disposed toward hate. I guess I just wish he would make more of an effort. I don't think there's a single demographic in this country that has suffered through more hate and ignorance in the last 15 years than Muslims, and setting an example from the highest position of power in our government could be the first step toward fixing that.

37 minutes ago, unixknight said:

Wait for what?  For me to go see Trump supporters have hecklers removed while Obama ignores them?  Newsflash, my friend, bullying comes in all kinds of flavors and tactics.  How about people who hurl words like "racist" or "bigot" at anyone who wants border walls or tighter immigration rules?  What about "homophobe" or "transphobe" as the new favorites to be used against anyone who doesn't get on the bandwagon?  What about people being assaulted for "cultural appropriation?"  Maybe Trump's a bully, but only of a different type.  We're still surrounded by them.

Fair enough. I won't deny that "social justice" has gotten out of hand recently. I think Obama did a good job of marginalizing true bigotry from the Right, but then millennials just took the ball and ran with it. 

37 minutes ago, unixknight said:

I don't see how anyone's being run over.  Sure, there will always be gloaters after an election, but it seems like you want us all to feel bad for those who are really really sad that Trump won...  Why?  This is our system of government.  Every 4 years about half the country gets what they want and the other half doesn't.  Period.  Like I mentioned in my last post, I have a close friend who's in all kinds of turmoil.  I don't gloat and I don't rub it in... but at the same time I won't share his sadness.  I think most of his anger comes from, as I mentioned, a news media that was stirring people up and this is the aftermath.  It was the same when Conservatives started freaking out in 2008.  There was no cause for it then and there's none for it now. 

Based on this post, it already seems like you're handling the results of this election the right way. Celebrate, but don't be a jerk about it. And for that, I thank you.

 

37 minutes ago, unixknight said:

Dude, I have nothing against you personally so please don't take this as an attack... I'm just gonna be blunt because I feel like I need to be very, very clear.  You guys have got to stop this wallowing in self misery.  I'm serious.  You're demanding sympathy and deference to people whose biggest emotional trauma is... the candidate they didn't like got elected.  And yes, that's all this is.  The media accuses every Republican of all the evils Trump is being accused of.  Even if he's every bit the monster CNN and HuffPo have you convinced he is, he wouldn't get away with doing monstrous things because, if you believe what you say about the voters being mostly good, honest people with a bad choice, then you know we wouldn't stand for it.

I want to believe this very badly. I'm sure I'll get there soon enough. For now though, I can't shake the feeling that the culture war in this country just got a whole lot worse. I would love to be proven wrong, though. Maybe this is just another case of "My politics don't match the winner's politics. WAH!". But we got that twice with Bush, and it just doesn't feel that way this time around.  

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2 hours ago, Godless said:

The fact that any decent human being could look at Trump and the culture that he has perpetuated and still vote for him escapes my comprehension, but I get it, the other option was far from great as well..

There were two main reasons, imho, that "decent people" voted for Trump. Rust-belt former auto and steel workers, who used to make $30+/hour w/benefits are now told that they are not worth $20, because they are stupid (you only have a high school diploma, seriously?). Then, when they gripe they are called bigots, homophobes and racists. They are anger and "acted out" against their nanny government and its media enabler. Then there are us Christians.  We despised Trump's antics, but took hope in his pro-life, pro-religious liberty stance (mainly through promised SCOTUS appointments). None of us expected Trump to win in a nice contest against Mother Theresa.  TODAY, much of the media continues to deride the rust-belt international economy losers, and to demand that we Christians explain ourselves.  Ah well...the media isn't about to win any humility contests either.

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20 minutes ago, Godless said:

I've actually had the same theory all along as well, believe it or not. I have two concerns, however.

1) Trump's grand stage play during the campaign may not have implications for his actions as president, but it added a ton of fuel to a culture war that has been heating up for a while. You may argue that it started with Obama, and you'll get no argument from me, but the proper response isn't to fan the flames even more. The end result is that Trump is now going to be the president of a country that is horribly divided because of his rhetoric. I don't see how he can talk us down from that. 

 

I don't think you're wrong here, but I'd add that a lot of the cultural divisions already existed, they were just simmering under the surface, especially for Conservatives.  It's a cold war that's turned hot.

20 minutes ago, Godless said:

2) What if your son and I are wrong? I suspected that this whole campaign might be a farce, but I wasn't willing to bet my vote on it. That's a huge gamble if you ask me. And even if we were right, see item 1. The damage was already done before he took office. His campaign premise of "Make America Great Again" was a self-fulfilling prophesy. Prior to this election cycle, I had no doubt that this is a great nation filled with great people. I now see that we have some work to do. We're still a great nation, but this election has broken us in a way that, in my opinion, previous elections have not.

I desperately hope that you and my son are right... but even if not, I still have faith enough in the system that if Trump is actually that bad he'll be unable to really botch things up.  Maybe I'm just being overly optimistic, but the system is designed to curtail despotic behavior.

I agree that we're more broken than before, but similar to my answer to 1), I don't think it just happened on Tuesday.  I think the election is just the symptom.

20 minutes ago, Godless said:

Validation is the first step toward empowerment. 

Fair enough, but the upside is that we don't have to allow it to worsen.   In other words, we can still curtail it.

20 minutes ago, Godless said:

I'm sorry to hear about you and your father, I truly am. Even as a liberal, I understand the need for secure borders and enforcement of legal immigration methods. At the same time, it's important not to demonize those who have come here illegally or may try to do so in the future. Many of them are simply trying to build better lives for themselves and their families. I know that many conservatives like you understand that, and it's unacceptable that bigotry is the automatic accusation when the topic comes up. However, I feel that there are those (like my own grandfather) who use this issue as an excuse for their own xenophobic, racist views, and Trump gave them validation on day one of his candidacy. As with most issues, the correct path lies somewhere in the middle of the two extremes that get the most attention.

I appreciate the kind words.   My dad and I actually do get along, but there are certain subjects we can no longer discuss and I am still carrying the resentment.  I tried to talk to him about it about a year after it happened and he didn't remember the incident.  It's up to me to find forgiveness because he can't ask for it if he doesn't remember it.

As for the rest of that... you're right... demonizing them isn't the answer.  The problem is, as you hinted at, there are two extremes.  The part that bothers me about the other extreme is when they're referred to as "law abiding people."  Well, no... they're not law abiding.  They've already demonstrated a willingness to disregard the law when it suits them. 

Another frustration Trump was tapping into is that there are a significant number of illegals who DO commit serious crimes and are either deported, only to come back and do it again or they're incarcerated and cause a drain on state and Federal budgets.  This is a legitimate concern that has also been marginalized.  Say what you like about Trump, he probably understands ordinary peoples' concerns better than most politicians and I find that oddly reassuring.

20 minutes ago, Godless said:

It's a delicate issue, to be sure. FWIW, I don't necessarily think Trump has done or said anything inherently wrong on this issue (though I disagree with the idea that we should stop all Muslims from entering the country). I think, like Bush, nothing Trump can say will change the minds of those who are already pre-disposed toward hate. I guess I just wish he would make more of an effort. I don't think there's a single demographic in this country that has suffered through more hate and ignorance in the last 15 years than Muslims, and setting an example from the highest position of power in our government could be the first step toward fixing that.

Agreed.

20 minutes ago, Godless said:

Fair enough. I won't deny that "social justice" has gotten out of hand recently. I think Obama did a good job of marginalizing true bigotry from the Right, but then millennials just took the ball and ran with it.

I don't think Obama really meant to marginalize only the true bigots... or he thinks there are more than there are. 

20 minutes ago, Godless said:

Based on this post, it already seems like you're handling the results of this election the right way. Celebrate, but don't be a jerk about it. And for that, I thank you.

I appreciate that, but somehow I think people who are willing to look at it the way you are doing are a rare breed.

20 minutes ago, Godless said:

I want to believe this very badly. I'm sure I'll get there soon enough. For now though, I can't shake the feeling that the culture war in this country just got a whole lot worse. I would love to be proven wrong, though. Maybe this is just another case of "My politics don't match the winner's politics. WAH!". But we got that twice with Bush, and it just doesn't feel that way this time around.  

It does feel different, and I admit I'm not really sure how much of it is the resentment from the last couple decades and how much is a resurgence of bad garbage.

Edited by unixknight
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1 hour ago, unixknight said:

 The media accuses every Republican of all the evils Trump is being accused of.  Even if he's every bit the monster CNN and HuffPo have you convinced he is, he wouldn't get away with doing monstrous things because, if you believe what you say about the voters being mostly good, honest people with a bad choice, then you know we wouldn't stand for it.

I know you wouldn't stand for it.  I know some other Trump supporters here, like PrisonChaplain, wouldn't stand for it. 

Many other Trump supporters, I now believe to be capable of nearly anything.  I actually have more faith that Trump won't go full fascist, than I have in his hard-line supporters' willingness to stand against such an attempt.

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@Godless One question:  Being as this article is on cracked.com, are you sure it isn't satire?

Because this line:

Quote

We would rather have an unqualified man who grabs, rapes, violates, bullies, and dehumanizes women as our leader than a uniquely qualified woman.

Is either a devastatingly distorted and dishonest statement by the author, or he's satirizing people who speak that way.

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6 hours ago, unixknight said:

I think the most insidious damage inflicted by modern liberal philosophy is the self loathing it's programmed into people of a specific race, sex and sexual preference while claiming to be non-racist, tolerant and non-sexist.

Can I get an Amen! I refuse to be guilt-tripped into whatever crap the left wants me to believe that because I'm not [insert favorite social justice warrior xyz-privelege here] I just don't get it.

Can I just say, people need to get over themselves.  Yes, we are all born into different stations in life; I don't feel guilty b/c I was born in America vs. China. I feel grateful, blessed, honored, etc. but the last thing I feel is guilt.  So whoever it is that wants me to feel "white" guilt or "white" privilege can just shove it.

I got a solution for you, it's called taking pride in yourself, your culture and your upbringing.  And that doesn't result in putting down of anyone, it doesn't require anyone to "understand" you. It's called growing up, being an adult and realizing that in life, unless they are your pastor/friend/family most people quite frankly couldn't give a rip about your problems. We are all just trying to make it in this life and we've all got our problems and part of being an adult is not burdening everyone else with one's problems.  It's called manning up.

This emotionally barraged social justice warrior/social Marxism crap has got to stop. Stop trying to make everyone else feel guilty b/c they don't "understand you".

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Guest Godless
49 minutes ago, unixknight said:

@Godless One question:  Being as this article is on cracked.com, are you sure it isn't satire?

Because this line:

Is either a devastatingly distorted and dishonest statement by the author, or he's satirizing people who speak that way.

It reads a bit over-dramatic in places, but certainly not satire. But yes, it's an odd fit for that particular website.

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23 hours ago, yjacket said:

Le sigh.  This reaction I don't get.  How does who has been elected President "invalid" your identity. Who I am, what I believe in etc. isn't tied to who is elected President . . .

I can't say why, but if someone's identity is that fragile, maybe they deserve it to be invalidated.

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4 hours ago, yjacket said:

Can I just say, people need to get over themselves.  Yes, we are all born into different stations in life; I don't feel guilty b/c I was born in America vs. China. I feel grateful, blessed, honored, etc. but the last thing I feel is guilt.  So whoever it is that wants me to feel "white" guilt or "white" privilege can just shove it.

Agreed; and it's highly entertaining that the media talk about exit polls among Hispanics (65% for Hillary) and Blacks (88% for Hillary) as though such political loyalty by ethnic groups is perfectly normal, but then come down with the vapors when it turns out that sixty-odd percent of whites voted for Trump.

We meant for THEM to take pride in their race and vote as a bloc--not YOU!!!!!

Edited by Just_A_Guy
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11 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

I give you, White House staff observing Obama receiving Trump as Prez-elect.WhiteHousestaffobservingObamareceivingTrumpasPrez-elect.jpg

oh man!  I was misled by the interwebs!  This isn't the White House Staff watching Obama greet Trump.  This is White House Staff and some senior officials as Obama spoke in a live televised address after Democratic presidential nominee Hillary Clinton conceded to Trump.

http://time.com/4566547/white-house-obama-staffers-donald-trump/

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Guest MormonGator
7 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

I know you wouldn't stand for it.  I know some other Trump supporters here, like PrisonChaplain, wouldn't stand for it. 

Many other Trump supporters, I now believe to be capable of nearly anything.  I actually have more faith that Trump won't go full fascist, than I have in his hard-line supporters' willingness to stand against such an attempt.

I trust @unixknight and his judgement 100% as well, but I agree word for word with what you said JAG. 

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