It's Not Pertinent To Your Salvation

[Guest]

We hear this statement a lot.  Many say it.  Many are frustrated at hearing it.  But it is obviously the correct response in some cases.  In other cases it is an expression of ignorance and a vapid mind.  So, just when is it important to know something that is not known or even knowable without specific revelation?

I was born in (at the time) a third world country.  I have no record of my actual birth.  That is, I don't know if I was born in a hospital, a house, a taxi, or on the street for that matter.  There simply isn't a record.  And those who could tell me where it was have since left this earth.  I'd really find it interesting to know.  But there is no earthly way for me to find out.  So, I'm just going to have to get used to disappointment.

I often wonder what was written in the sealed portion of the plates.  Why write them in the first place if it isn't appropriate for the world at large to know?  In the same vein, why write the Book of Revelation with such completely figurative language that the best learned scholars and even the inspired apostles & prophets have trouble agreeing on what it all means?  More disappointment.

Only recently did I gain a testimony of the Spirit of Elijah.  But I still don't understand it.  Partially disappointing.

I'd really like to know about the specifics of the next life.  I'd like to know more about the Millennium.  I'd really like to know about the literal Adam and Eve as well as the figurative story that we appear to have currently.  I'd really like to know about the freeing of those in spirit prison when the Lord was resurrected.  I'd like to know so much more.  But I am limited by both the time I have available to study as well as what there is available to study in the first place.  

So, where is the balancing point?

Edited November 16, 2016 by Guest

[NightSG]

20 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

I often wonder what was written in the sealed portion of the plates.  Why write them in the first place if it isn't appropriate for the world at large to know?

That's the part where it says "now go tell all the dingleberries arguing that soda is against the WoW, chewing with their mouths open, and gossiping in the hallway goodbye, because you're not going to see them anymore.  I have prepared for them a place where the only entertainment isaudiobooks recorded by Fran Drescher for all eternity."

See how pointless it would be to tell everyone that beforehand?

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, NightSG said:

That's the part where it says "now go tell all the dingleberries arguing that soda is against the WoW, chewing with their mouths open, and gossiping in the hallway goodbye, because you're not going to see them anymore.  I have prepared for them a place where the only entertainment isaudiobooks recorded by Fran Drescher for all eternity."

See how pointless it would be to tell everyone that beforehand?

Reference, please...

[NightSG]

14 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Reference, please...

Why else would He create Fran Drescher?

[Guest]

14 minutes ago, NightSG said:

Why else would He create Fran Drescher?

Point taken.

[Jane_Doe]

Excellent OP.

I think the answer lies not with the data itself or it's presentation, but rather our ability to understand the data and it's limitations (both in availability and understandably).  We must understand and accept our current strengths/weakness, and be patient with the fact that new-walkers cannot run.  Because of the complex variables involved there is no "rule of thumb" but things must be dealt with on a case-by case basis.

Example #1: Carb's birth.  We know for certain it happened and that he had a birth mother and sire.  We can pretty certainly it was in X country, and probably who the mother and father were.  Using Earthly methods, we cannot know the exact location of the birth-- the data does not exist.  We must accept this.

Example #2: Carb said "Only recently did I gain a testimony of the Spirit of Elijah.  But I still don't understand it."  In this case, the basic data exists and is available.  You have certainty in this data (aka a testimony).  But you do not yet understand the processes involved therein.  So that then becomes the next example---

Example #3: Understanding the processes involved in the Spirit of Elijah.  How much information is available on this?  Some, but no all.  We must accept this advailblity.  Now as to understanding the data we do have... understanding is a muscle, and takes time.  Because this is an individual understanding for Carb and not for the world, his understanding may be different than another person's.  That's ok.

If Carb was really interested in understanding the processes involved in the Spirit of Elijah, he could devote more Earthly time to it.  Or his interest may lay other places, so he could focus there first.  He will eventually understand everything, but that's in the enteritis and not now.  This is true for all knowledge, not just spiritual things.  

For an example in my life: I have little interest in church history, but a great interest in deeply understanding the framework of the Plan of Salvaiton-- so that's where my studies and growth are.  I don't have a deep knowledge of Joseph Smith's earthly duties, nor do I find it super important-- I know for certainty he was a prophet and don't care about the details.

 

*** Carb, I hope you don't mind me putting you in the spotlight for this post.

Edited November 16, 2016 by Jane_Doe

[Guest]

10 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

*** Carb, I hope you don't mind me putting you in the spotlight for this post.

I kinda ruined that when I wrote the OP in the first place.  So... no.

[NightSG]

14 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

Example #1: Carb's birth.  We know for certain it happened and that he had a birth mother and sire.

Do we really know that?  He could be a fairly advanced android.

For that matter, he could be just an AI program somewhere with a couple of his programmers pretending to have met him in person to improve his credibility here.

[Guest]

48 minutes ago, NightSG said:

Do we really know that?  He could be a fairly advanced android.

For that matter, he could be just an AI program somewhere with a couple of his programmers pretending to have met him in person to improve his credibility here.

What if I were such an advanced android that you simply couldn't tell the difference.  What if I'm a Cylon of the New Battlestar Galactica series?

What if you're really just in the Matrix and the MormonHub is just part of the computers messing with your mind?

[NightSG]

24 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

What if I were such an advanced android that you simply couldn't tell the difference.  What if I'm a Cylon of the New Battlestar Galactica series?

What if you're really just in the Matrix and the MormonHub is just part of the computers messing with your mind?

What if Inception was never really filmed, we just think it was...

[Guest]

15 minutes ago, NightSG said:

What if Inception was never really filmed, we just think it was...

What if there were no hypothetical questions?  DOH!  Yup.  I went there.

[zil]

1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

What if I'm a Cylon of the New Battlestar Galactica series?

Ooo, I had a wind-up version of you!  A lot like this, but not this:

[Colirio]

But, curiosity killed the cat! 

 

Then again, Nephi's heart pondered on the things of God continually. 

 

Colirio's actual thoughts?

 

"Ask and ye shall receive, seek and ye shall find, knock and it shall be opened unto you."

 

Every great revelation came in response to a righteous question.

It's a good thing the prophets didn't listen to the "pertinent to your salvation" crowd...

[Guest]

1 hour ago, zil said:

Ooo, I had a wind-up version of you!  A lot like this, but not this:

You're thinking of the original series.  The redux was completely different.

[Anddenex]

When the phrase, "it is not pertinent to your salvation," is said or written it tends to be inline with questions a person may be struggling with that is ultimately harming their testimony (or potential to do so). In these cases, the phrase is perfectly fine, "Don't worry about what has not yet been fully revealed." Why let something that isn't pertinent to our salvation ruin our peace.

The balancing point, I would say, is faith, hope, and charity (patience and humility). We should be like Abraham who desired first to live righteously, and then desired to possess greater knowledge, and the circular pattern continues: live what you know >> desire to learn more >> live what is revealed >> desire to learn even more.

If aspects of truth are out of our grasp, then sadly we live with some form of disappointment mingled with contentment knowing at some point it will be revealed. If we are too eager, and too impatient to learn and then try to force knowledge we place ourselves within temptation and to be deceived (as we see today).

[Traveler]

 

Only when the truth of something is incomplete – then is such incompleteness not pertinent to our (or anyone else’s) eternal salvation.

 

The Traveler

[Rob Osborn]

I personally believe each one of us holds valuable puzzle pieces to all the mysteries and that if we are  provided the correct place and time to discuss that a lot of mysteries could be known. I dont think God really keeps us from knowing any mysteries but that access to them requires working together in harmony and doing whats right. Access to mysteries comes through generous charity towards others.

[zil]

1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

You're thinking of the original series.  The redux was completely different.

OK, fine, I had a wind-up version of your great grandfather?  (Maybe this sub-thread should end now. )

[Guest]

10 hours ago, zil said:

OK, fine, I had a wind-up version of your great grandfather?  (Maybe this sub-thread should end now. )

This is the new Cylon known as #6.

And this is the Cylon known as #8 or "Boomer".

That would be closer to me since she's Korean.  And, yes, I'm really that hot.  But... you know... male.

Edited November 17, 2016 by Guest

[askandanswer]

9 hours ago, NightSG said:

For that matter, he could be just an AI program somewhere with a couple of his programmers pretending to have met him in person to improve his credibility here.

If this is the case, I'd like to have a few words with those programmers and point out a few of their errors

[askandanswer]

I often feel slightly annoyed/disappointed when I come across this phrase about not being pertinent to our salvation, or one of its many variants, particularly when I see it somewhere here in mormonhub.com. I feel that all knowledge has value, although there is considerable variation in that value, and how much value a piece of knowledge has is a very subjective and individual judgement. I have sometimes received this phrase in response to some of the questions I have raised here and sometimes when that happens, I feel a little bit saddened by what seems to be the responder's apparently limited vision. 

If all goes as it should, apart from matters relating to temple ordinances and the Priesthood, we should know all that is pertinent to our salvation well before we finish Primary. A very large percentage of all lessons, talks, conference addresses, firesides, etc, will simply be slightly more elaborate and detailed repetitions of what we were taught in Primary. 

The main reason why I ask the questions that I do in this forum is that for me, (and I realise this may not hold true for others) there is a bit of a correlation between my knowledge/understanding, and my faith. As one increases, it helps to increase the other. I wish this correlation was tighter and more direct, and its my fault that it's not, but that's something i need to work on. For example, if, as a result of my study and reasoning, I had come to a fairly reliable and well informed conclusion that in a given set of circumstances, God is likely to do X, then when those circumstances arise, my faith that God will do X is greatly increased. 

I like what Brigham Young said on the value of knowledge and the importance of its acquisition, regardless of what sort of knowledge we are working on acquiring. Here is jost one short quote of many, many great things he said on the subject:

What to Study—It is our privilege and our duty to search all things upon the face of the earth, and learn what there is for man to enjoy, what God has ordained for the benefit and happiness of mankind, and then make use of it without sinning against him. 9:243.

[Guest]

5 hours ago, askandanswer said:

If this is the case, I'd like to have a few words with those programmers and point out a few of their errors

So would I.  Errr, I mean, uhmm.

So, how 'bout those Cubs, eh?

[Edspringer]

I enjoy studying the scriptures, but not only reading them, but going deeper and deeper.

I also heard that sentence a lot in my life: "Stop trying to figure that out. It's not pertinent to your salvation" or "This is deep doctrine". It frustrated me a lot in the past, but as I grew spiritually and enhanced my study skills, I got more confident to ask, seek and knock. I’d like to share my thoughts:

a) I am pretty convinced that ALL I can know (not only what I need, should or must know) is in the scriptures we now possess. I am convinced that I can know about any gospel law, principle, doctrine, commandment or subject, as long as it is mentioned in scripture by sincerely studying, pondering and asking Heavenly Father for guidance. As scripture is given by the power of the Holy Ghost, I can only understand it by the same power. So, if I desire to know more about a principle that is mentioned in scripture but may not be very clear, I should do my best in searching the answers in all books of scriptures, exercise my faculties and then ask God if it is correct (D&C 9:8-9). If I’m worthy and prepared, even the visions of eternity can be displayed before me, just like with the prophets of the past and present;

b) I’m also very convinced that there’s no ‘deep doctrine’. There are, as far as I know, things that have been revealed and things that haven’t. I’m sure there’s plenty to learn from scripture study.  I know that our Father in Heaven shares His knowledge with those who seek for it and are prepared and worthy to receive it. He uses a very known pattern to us, which is give to men line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little, there a little (D&C 128:21);

c) “It is impossible for a man to be saved in ignorance (D&C 131:6). That being said, one can only reach Heaven if he/she knows the only true and living God and Jesus Christ (John 17:3). How do we come to know God and Jesus Christ? Though the scriptures and by the power of the Holy Ghost. Knowledge is essential to salvation. Every knowledge available is important to salvation.

d) I’m convinced that I don’t need to know all that God knows to be saved. Otherwise there wouldn’t be need for faith and works.

Well, it has worked for me so far. I’m open to new insights on this matter.

 

[zil]

10 hours ago, Carborendum said:

 ... But... you know... male.

Which is why you chose two female examples for what you new Cylons look like.  Right.  Got it.  Clear as crystal.  (Remember, I'm the one who suggested we should end this sub-thread...)

[Guest]

21 minutes ago, zil said:

Which is why you chose two female examples for what you new Cylons look like.  Right.  Got it.  Clear as crystal.  (Remember, I'm the one who suggested we should end this sub-thread...)

Just curious.  Did you ever see the new series?

The reasons I chose these two are

1) #6 is the prominent Cylon in the series.  So, she would have to be included in a small sample.
2) #8 is Korean, so she looks most like me.  In fact, she looks an awful lot like my sister.  So, if my sister were a Cylon, that would explain the hostility.

I don't want to end this threadjack.  I've been threadjacking others' threads.  It's only fair that I threadjack my own.

Edited November 17, 2016 by Guest