Did Women Ever Hold The Priesthood

[Snow]

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Corinthians (14:34) says that women are NOT premitted to speak: "Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law."

We pick and choose which scriptures we think are true enough to follow.

In the context of the passage, Paul seems to be taking certain women in Corinth to task for disrupting the services with their questions. He also wrote to the Galations that we no longer have male, nor female. By and large, the early Christians we seen as almost radical in the liberty they granted women.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/sh...irst/roles.html

As I understand it, there is speculation that that there was a local problem of women rudely interupting prophecy or questioning their husbands in 'weighing' their prophecies. At any rate, as the scripture stands, it presupposes that women were silent in Paul's church.

[prisonchaplain]

Or, perhaps it was the men who were silent (whlle the preacher was preaching), and the women needed to be told to do so?

[Dr T]

LOL-maybe that was it...

[Elphaba]

LOL-maybe that was it...

Or maybe the men were quiet because they'd been half asleep during the sermon and when they woke up they saw the women having an interesting conversation with the preacher. Knowing they looked inferior to their women, because they had no idea what the sermon had been about, they decided to yell at their wives for "making too much noise," and to be quiet. That would take the heat off of them for sleeping through the sermon and make them look like big, chesty men who knew how to treat their wimmen!

But, of course, only when Paul wasn't around. B)

Elphaba

[prisonchaplain]

Elpha, your interpretation might make sense if the LDS is truly a restoration of the church that existed in Paul's time. LOL

[Gaia]

Hello Everyone --

I'm new here, so i hope it's ok to share my own thoughts and research on this topic.

Here is a very interesting quote from Edward Tullidges "Women of MOrmondom" -- admittedly no scripture, but it does show the attitudes of earlier (the book was published in ) LDS:

"...This gospel of a new dispensation came to America by the administration of angels. But let it not be thought that Joseph Smith alone saw angels. Multitudes received angelic administrations in the early days of the Church; thousands spoke in tongues and prophesied; and visions, dreams and miracles were daily manifestations among the disciples.

The sisters were quite as familiar with angelic visitors as the apostles. They were in fact the best "mediums" of this spiritual work. They were the "cloud of witnesses." Their Pentecosts of spiritual gifts were of frequent occurrence.The sisters were also apostolic in a priestly sense. They partook of the priesthood equally with the men . They too "held the keys of the administration of angels." Who can doubt it, when faith is the greatest of all keys to unlock the gates of heaven? But "the Church" herself acknowledged woman's key. There was no Mormon St. Peter in this new dispensation to arrogate supremacy over woman, on his solitary pontifical throne. The "Order of Celestial Marriage," not of celestial celibacy, was about to be revealed to the Church.

Woman also soon became high priestess and prophetess . She was this officially .

The constitution of the Church acknowledged her divine mission to administer for the regeneration of the race. The genius of a patriarchal priesthood naturally made her the apostolic help-meet for man. If you saw her not in the pulpit teaching the congregation, yet was she to be found in the temple, administering for the living and the dead!

Even in the holy of holies she was met. As a high priestess she blessed with the laying on of hands! As a prophetess she oracled in holy places! As an endowment giver she was a Mason, of the Hebraic order, whose Grand Master is the God of Israel and whose anointer is the Holy Ghost. She held the keys of the administration of angels and of the working of miracles and of the "sealings" pertaining to "the heavens and the earth." Never before was woman so much as she is in this Mormon dispensation!"

(Edward Tullidge, "women of Mormondom", 22)

I wanted to thank Elphaba for the information posted; here is some more:

Joseph and Emma Smith became the first couple to receive the Second Anointing (by which they made their Calling and Election Sure and thus received the Second Comforter) or "fullness of the priesthood."

By this ceremony they were each "anointed & ordained to the highest & holiest order of the priesthood."

PLEASE NOTE: "EACH anointed and ordained", NOT just the husband.

("Meetings of the Anointed Quorum- Journalizings," 28 Sept 1843, also slightly different entry in Joseph Smith diary, 28 Sept 1843, in Faulring, "An American Prophet's Record" p 412.

In The HIstory of the Church (HC), the ordinance by which Hyrum and Mary Fielding Smith received their Second Anointing is recorded as "My brother Hyrum and his wife were blessed, ORDAINED AND ANOINTED."

PLEASE NOTE: "and his wife were blessed, ORDAINED AND ANOINTED."

(Wilford Woodruff, "Historian's Private Journal," 26 Feb 1867, LDS archives; LDS MIllennial Star 22 (7 April 1860): 214; HC 6:46.)

When Brigham Young's own wife received the endowment on 1 Nov 1843, he wrote, "Mary A Young ADMITTED TO THE HIEST ORDER OF THE PRIESTHOOD" [sic] [emphasis added]

PLEASE NOTE: It does NOT say that her husband was admitted, it says that SHE "was admitted".

She did not receive the Second Anointing with him until three weeks later.

(Brigham Young Diary 29 Oct, 1 Nov 1843, copies in Donald R Moorman papers, ARchives, Weber State University; "Meetings of anointed Quorum - Journalizings," 29 Oct 1843; Faulring, "An American Prophet's Record," 444; Ehat, "Joseph Smith's Introduction of the Temple Ordinances," 103.)

The popular but erroneous idea that women receive priesthood only through their husbands (in temple marriage or the Second Anointing -- both of which a husband and wife must receive together) -- was NOT the view expressed by the Anointed Quorum's original members, who learned about the endowment directly from Juseph Smith:

Brigham Young's 1843 diary associated the endowment of women with their receiving priesthood. For example: ON 29 Oct 1843, he noted that Thirza Cahoon, Lois Cutler, and Phebe Woodworth were "taken into the ORDER OF THE PRIESTHOOD." That was the day those three women individually received their endowments. They did NOT join with their husbands to receive the Second Anointing until 12 and 15 Nov 1843, respectively.

On 3 Feb 1844, William Clayton's diary noted that Jane Bicknell Young was also endowed and received "into the Quorum of the Priesthood."

(William Clayton diary, 3 Feb 1844, 7 Dec. 1845; in Smith, "An Intimate Chronicle," 125, 193; "Meetings of the anointed quorum" JOseph Smith diary, 3 Feb 1844, in Faulring, "an American Prophet's Record," 444; Ehat, "Hoseph Smith's INtroduction of Temple Ordinances," 103; Buerger, "The Fulness of the Priesthood," 23.)

Joseph Smith's uncle John Smith, a special member of the First Presidency since 1837, member of the Anointed Quorum since 28 Sep 1843, having received four months of special instruction from the Prophet about the Holy Order of the Priesthood during the frequent meetings of the Anointed Quorum --

(Deseret News 1991-1992, "Church Almanac" 46; HC 6:173; Faulring, "An American Prophet's Record" 416; "Meetings of the anointed Quorum," 28 Sept 1843; Ehat, "Joseph Smith's Introduction of Temple Ordinances," 102); --

Subsequently pronounced a patriarchal blessing on Maria Turnbow which specificed that it was THROUGH THE ENDOWMENT CEREMONY THAT WOMEN RECEIVE THE PRIESTHOOD: "Thou shalt have an Endowment in the Lord's house [and] be clothed with the Power of the Holy Priesthood.....

(John Smith patriarchal blesing to Maria Louisa Turnbow, 7 Nov 1845, in William S Harwell, "The Matriarchal Priesthood and Emma's Right to Succession as Prsiding HIgh Priestess and Queen" 7.)

In fact after his ordination as patriarch to the church in 1849, John Smith also described an *ancient* dimension of this female birthright to priesthood:

In his blessing to Caroline Cottam in Mar 1853, he referred to the "Priesthood which Abraham sealed upon his daughters."

He also blessed Elizabeth Bean in May 1853: "I seal upon you all the blessings of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and all the PRIESTHOOD THAT WAS SEALED UPON THE DAUGHTERS OF JOSEPH in the land of Egypt..."

He made a similar statement in a blessing to another LDS woman in Nov 1853.

(John Smith patriarchal blessing to Caroline Cottam, 26 Mar 1853, LDS archives; JOhn Smith blessing to Elizabeth Bean, 1 May 1853, Goerge Washington Bean journal, Book 1, 79-80, Archives, Lee Library, BYU, and his blessing to Sophia Pollard, 9 Nov 1853; all are quoted in Irene May Bates, "Transformation of Charisma in the Mormon church , Ph.D. diss., UCLA 1991, 281-82.)

ON WOMEN & PRIESTHOOD IN BIBLICAL TIMES:

It might be instructive to remember that "The genuine Pauline letters apply missionary titles and such characterizations as:

"co-worker" -- Prisca

"diakonos" -- Phoebe

"apostle" -- Junia

-- To women.

Paul uses the same Greek verb "kopian" ("to labor" or "to toil") not only to charaacterize his own evangelizing and teaching, but also that of women.

In Romans 16:6, 12, he commends Mary, Tryphaena, Tryphosa, and Persis for having "labored hard" in the Lord.

Paul also affirms that women worked with him on an equal basis. Philippians 4:2-3 explicitly states that Euodia and Syntyche have "contended" side by side with him. He considers the authority of both women in the community at Phillippi great...

Phoebe (Romans 16) is the only person in the Pauline literature to receive an official letter of recommendation and is given three substantive titles: sister, diakonos, and prostatis.

whenever Paul uses the title "diakonos" to refer to himself or another male leader, exegetes translate it "minister" "missionary" or "servant". In the case of Phoebe, they usually translate it "deaconess". However, Pheobe's "office" in the church of Cenchreae is not limited by prescribed gender roles. she is not a deaconness of the women only, but a minister of the whole church."

(Elisabeth Schussler-Fiorenza, "In Memory of Her" 169-170)

* * *

Years later, Bathsheba W Bigler Smith (plural wife of Joseph Smith, and sister to Zina DH Young, second General President of the Relief Society) testified publically:

"I have always been pleased that i had my endowments when the Prophet lived...he gave us everything, every order of the priesthood....he said he had given the sisters instructions that they could administer to the sick and he wanted to make us, as the women in Paul's day, 'a Kingdom of priestesses.'"

(Bathsheba Smith Statement, 9 June 1905, Pioneer Stake Relief Society minutes, LDS archives, quoted in part by Derr, Cannon, and Beecher, "Women of Covenant," 53-54; Ehat, "Joseph Smith's Introduction of Temple Ordinances," 103.)

In Feb 1844 stake patriarch John Smith told Louisa C Jackson that she had a *right* to priesthood from her birth: "thou art of the blood of Abraham through the loins of Manasseh & ,"

(John Smith patriarchal blessing to Louisa C Jackson, 6 Feb 1844, RLDS archives).

Louisa's blessing showed that any Mormon woman had a *birthright* to priesthood which depended upon NO man .

SO, WHAT HAPPENED?

So if this is the history, WHAT HAPPENED, Why don't we hear more of women's "Priestesshood"???

First, By the end of the early 1880's, death had taken all the General Authorities who had specifically been taught on the nature of Priesthood by the Head of the Dispensation -- Joseph Smith; and those who had themselves taught that the endowment conferred priesthood upon women.

Second, By 1888, Mormon misogyny was linked with denials of women's authority,which resulted in a public comment by Apostle Franklin D Richards:

"Every now and then we hear men speak tauntingly of the sisters and lightly of their public duties, instead of suporting and encouraging them....There are also some who look with jealousy upon the moves of the sisters as though they might come to possess some of the gifts, and are afraid they [LDS women] will get away with some of the blessings of the gospel which only men ought to possess."

Because of this "envy and jealousy," Apostle Richards said some LDS men "don't like to accord to [the sisters] anything that will raise them up and make thier talents to shine forth as the daughters of Eve and Sarah."

("LDS Women's Exponent" 7 (1 NOv 1878): 86.)

Elder Richards is the only General Authority to publically acknowledge that jealousy and fear are the basis for the oppositon of some LDS men against the spiritual authority of women.

However, that such fear exists is proven by the dire (and sometimes even bizarre) consequences some LDS men and authorities have predicted might occur if men were denied the "superiority" this unique role gives them:

In a well-publicized statement, fear of women hit a new low when a then-current LDS General Authority (Hartman Rector, Jr) predicted that if the female portion of humankind were to receive the Priesthood, then:

"...The male would be so far below the female in power and influence that there would be little or no purpose for his existence [--] in fact, he would probably be eaten by the female as is the case with the black widow Spider."

(Hartman Rector Jr, President of the First Quorum of the Seventy, to Mrs. Teddie Wood, 29 August, 1978, photocopy in "Utah Women's Issues, 1970s-80s", Western Americana, J Willard Marriott Library, University of Utah; quoted in Sonia Johnson, "From Housewife to Heretic", and in Robert Gottlieb and Peter Wiley, "America's Saints: The Rise of Mormon Power" 212.)

As late as April 1896 Apostle Richards reaffirmed the independent source of women's authority to perform healing ordinances: this senior Apostle and Church Historian instructed LDS women that they have "the right" to say these words in administering to the sick: "In the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by virtue of the Holy anointing which i have received."

Until 1900 the First Presidency also authorized women to use the word "sealed" in this ordinance.

(Franklin D Richards diary 3 Apr 1896, LDS archives; JOurnal History of the Church 7 Mar 1900, 1 Microforms, Marriot Libary, UofU; Clark, "Messages of the First Prsidency" 4:314-17; "Deseret News" 8 Apr 1901, and response in Louisa L Green Richards to Lorenzo Snow, 9 Apr 1901, LDS archives.)

It is also likely that some of the women, themselves, were responsible for the diminishment of their power and authority - -by constantly ASKING the men if it was *alright* for them to use their power.

And finally, In 1946, then-Apostle Joseph Fielding Smith wrote the letter to the Relief Society Presidency, which ended the era during which women freely exercised the Gifts of the Spririt, including Healing --- to which they'd always had access and which Joseph Smith had vigorously approved.

Instead, he said that women should "send for the elders of the Chruch to come and administer to the sick and afflicted."

(Joseph Fielding Smith Letter to Belle Spafford, Marriane C Sharpe and Gertrude R Garff, 29 July 1946, in Clark, _Messages of the First Prsidency_ 4:314; also Derr, Cannon, Beecher, _Women of Covenant_ 220-221.

Many LDS men may not realize what this meant for LDS women. I wonder how they would feel if suddenly an official "Declaration" were delivered from the Office of the First Presidency to all Priesthood Meetings, declaring that LDS men must no longer exercise their Priesthood, but rather, "send for the Priestesses of the Kingdom...."

ON PRIESTHOOD and "AUTHORITY" :

"Authority" means both power and permission. In the first sense authority is the priesthood power of God. Through the Temple endowment, both men and women receive God's authority or POWER of the Priesthood. Men also receive priesthood power through ordination to specific office.

The second sense of authority is the *permission* of the church. Niether males nor females can exercise their priesthood without persmission of the church.

However, both males and females have received such permisson from the church in various ways:

For LDS males, conferral of power and the permission to exercise priesthood in the church come in stages. There are two ways in which the LDS church gives formal authority for males to exercise the pristhood they receive by ordination and the endowment:

First, through the ordinance of being "set apart" -- as a missionary, temple ordinance worker, or church presiding officer, such as stake president or auxiliary president.

Second, church leaders give verbal "authority" for males to use their priesthood for specific occasions or ordinances such as administering the sacrament, baptism, confirmation, and administering to the sick.

But For LDS women the priesthood does NOT come in stages of ordination, but in the temple endowment -- and the endowment gives today exactly what it gave in Joseph Smith's time.

HIstorically, women also have received church authority to exercise their priest(ess)hood power in behalf of others: they receive the ordinance of being set apart as missionaries, temple ordinance workers, and presiding officers such as auxiliary presidents.

And as already discussed, LDS leaders have given verbal and written authority for LDS women to perform ordinances including blessings and healings. Church POLICY revoked that permission in 1946 but could reinstate it at any time.

IN today's church, a woman who has received the temple endowment has more priesthood POWER than a boy who holds the office of priest. However, the priest has more PERMISSION to exercise his priesthood than does the endowed woman to exercise hers.

Priesthood power has always been independent of the offices of the LDS church.

LDS women already have God's priesthood of spiritual POWER. Without asking permission, they may draw on the POWER of the Priesthood that is theirs by birthright and by divine endowment. However, it is necessary for endowed women to receive PERMISSION of the church to use their priesthood in specifically *church* settings.

Without ordination to priesthood OFFICES, each endowed > woman already has the opportunity to fulfill in her life Joseph Smith's promise: "I now turn the key to you in the name of God."

(D MIchael Quinn, "Mormon Women Have Had the Priesthood Since 1843", in _Women And Authority_ edited by Maxine Hanks.)

RESOURCES:

For more on any of this, i recommend the following sources:

- _Women and Authority_ by Maxine Hanks, ed.

- _In Her Name_ by Elisabeth Schussler-Fiorenza;

- "Women in the Early Christian Movement," in Carol P Christ and Judith Plaskow, ed. _WomanSpirit Rising_,

- _Strangers in Paradox_ by Toscano and Toscano

For more on FEMALE PRIESTHOOD IN BIBLICAL TIMES, please see the following:

- Antony Hutchinson, "Women and Ordination: Introduction to the Biblical Context," in _Dialogue: A JOurnal of MOrmon Thought_ 14 (Winter 1981): 58-74;

- Melodie Moench Charles, "SCriptural Precendents for Priesthood," _Dialogue: A JOurnal of Mormon Thought_ 18 (Autumn 1985): 18-20;

- Savina J. Teubal, _Sarah the Priestess_

and _Ancient sisterhood_

- Elisabeth Schussler-Fiorenza, "Women in the Early Christian Movement," in Carol P Christ and Judith Plaskow, ed. _WomanSpirit Rising_, 84-92;

- Toscano and Toscano _Strangers in Paradox_, 167-78.

NOTE: Please be aware that these are not all written by LDS writers, nor are they necessarily considered official LDS doctrine.

PS -- If anyone wants to discuss this more but in private, please feel free to email me [email protected] --

Blessings to All --

~Gaia

[Penlady]

Elphaba, you have answered your own question about whether women ever held the priesthood, but I can add that I have relatives who have received their second endowment, and when one relative (female) lived out in an area where she had no access to the priesthood, and needed it badly, she was given the priesthood by men in the bishopric, but was told not to make it common knowledge because it was frowned upon, but not forbidden. She did use that priesthood very effectively in healing others and making other things happen with that power. The Bishop that ordained her said something like "I don't know if this will work (for him to endow her with the priesthood), but its worth a try, and I deeply feel the need for you to have the priesthood in your life, and the worst effect it can cause, is like putting oil on a person's head, no damage. Its up to God whether he honors our request to let you have the priesthood or not, but women in the past did have the gift of healing, because they were the ones home with the women and children and the sick. Men were not usually very accessible."

Blessings,

Penlady

**********

It is in this theological context of priesthood that Young declared: “Now, brethren, the man that honors his Priesthood, the woman that honors her Priesthood, will receive an everlasting inheritance in the kingdom of God.”

So, what did he mean by that?

Elphaba

[Gaia]

I can add that I have relatives who have received their second endowment,....

GAIA:

Hello Penlady -- Thanks so much for that information --

However, I did want to add, for purposes of clarity -- and no offense intended --

There is no such thing as a "Second Endowment" -- That's a term that's somtimes (mistakenly) used to refer to the Second Anointing -- the ordinance by which one makes their calling and election to eternal life sure, and receives the Second Comforter.

For example, Brigham Young's Manuscript History has the following notations about Second Anointings:

—14 (Sunday)—Preached in the city. In the evening attended prayer meeting at the Assembly Room. My wife Mary Ann and I received our second anointing.

—20—Met with the Quorum: Heber C. Kimball and his wife Vilate received their second anointing.

—21 (Sunday)—I met in the Assembly Room with the Quorum, and administered to Parley P. Pratt his second anointing.

—22—I met with the Quorum of the Twelve at my house, for prayer and conversation.

—26—The Twelve met at my house: Orson Pratt received his second anointing.

—27—We met at the Assembly Room: Willard Richards and his wife Jenetta were sealed and received their second anointing.

—28—The Quorum met in the Assembly Room. Wilford Woodruff and his wife Phebe P. W. were sealed and received their second anointing.

(Brigham Young, Manuscript History of Brigham Young [salt Lake City: Church Archives], .)

* * *

This binding process in religion has often been achieved through secret as well as public rites. Latter-day Saints scholar Hugh Nibley has devoted much research to ancient ordinances that were "hidden from the world" and were intended to be experienced in sacred seclusion. fn The importance of such study lies in the fact that within The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are certain nonpublic ordinances that Mormon leaders have repeatedly affirmed are divine restorations of ancient ordinances of God. fn LDS prophets have identified these as "temple ordinances," known as washing, anointing, endowment, sealing, and second anointing. fn

(Latter-Day Saint Prayer Circles Fn by D. Michael Quinn Fn, BYU Studies, vol. 19 (1978-1979), Number 1 - Fall 1978 79.)

* * *

See also:

Buerger, David John. " 'The Fulness of the Priesthood': The Second Anointing in Latter-day Saint Theology and Practice." Dialogue 16 (Spring 1983):

I can post more on the topic, if anybody is interested --

Blessings --

~Gaia

[Elphaba]

One of the issues that has been brought up is that if the women were ordained to the priesthood why weren't they given an office of some sort?

It's not a good argument. According to an 1835 revelation, "All other authorities or offices in the church are appendages to the priesthoodl" (D&C 107:5)

Additionally, at the 1903 General Conferences, President Joseph F. Smith explained that the Priesthood exists independent of church offices, but church offices are appendages which cannot exist without the Priesthood. "If an Apostle has any authority at all, he derives it from the Melchisedek Preisthood." He added that "all the offices in the Church are simply appendages to the Melchisedek Priesthood and grow out of it."

Therefore, a woman does not need an office, or an "appendage" to hold the priesthood. According to Joseph Smith's teachings to the Relief Society and to the Anointed Quorum, a woman receives the Melchizedek priesthood when she receives the endowment.

I suspect the modern-day belief that one must hold a Church office if one holds the priesthood has created one of the the misunderstandings apparent today that prevents members from accepting that these early women were ordained with the "highest order of the priesthood."

In point of fact, they didn't need to hold an official office. They manifested their priesthood by their participation in the Anointed Quorum, which was, for a brief moment in time, an integral body in the decision making process of the still-burgeoning Church.

So, obviously, I still maintain they were ordained to the 'highest order of the priesthood" for a very short, but miraculous time in the history of the Chuch.

Elphaba

[CrimsonKairos]

Okay, well then why don't you sisters go ask your Bishop to let you pass the sacrament this Sunday?

I wonder what he'd say? Probably something like, "Well technically sister you should be able to, but due to androcentric policy and male inferiority complex, women can't have office in the priesthood even though they can have the priesthood itself."

I love how penlady uses one rogue bishop who isn't even sure about what he's doing to disprove the General Authorities and Church practice. Whatever floats your boat.

I don't see what all this is about. I mean, if women couldn't receive a fulness of salvation without personally holding the priesthood then I'd get your concern. But what in the world is with the need to look for obscure diary entries to prove something that you all admit doesn't apply anymore? Is it to shake the big bad male hierarchy into realizing that we aren't superior to women?

No Christ-like priesthood holder I know thinks he is "better" than any woman because he holds the priesthood. I just don't get what this whole discussion is about?

If you were trying to lobby for womens' right to pass the sacrament or hold priesthood office, I'd get it. But none of you seem to be seeking such things. You're just saying, "According to such and such records, and if you interpret the Greek New Testament a certain way, then you see that women once held the Melchizedek Priesthood but not any office in it. Isn't that great?!"

[Jason]

Okay, well then why don't you sisters go ask your Bishop to let you pass the sacrament this Sunday?

I wonder what he'd say? Probably something like, "Well technically sister you should be able to, but due to androcentric policy and male inferiority complex, women can't have office in the priesthood even though they can have the priesthood itself."

Well....um...while we're being nit-picky, technically if Deacons and Teachers can pass (ie. administer) the Sacrament, then by default, anyone can.

D&C 20:55 specifically forbids anyone but an Elder (or Priest if "occasion requires") from passing (ie administering) the sacrament.

But neither teachers nor deacons have authority to baptize, administer the sacrament, or lay on hands

Just a little FYI.

[checkerboy]

I have to say I totally support what CK has said, cause I have been thinking the same thing. I don't think anyone here is saying they don't believe you Elphaba. I personally feel that women do receive the priesthood through temple ceremonies, but the thing is it is not their responsibility in this world to lead or administer ordinances (with the exception of temple ordinances.) I don't know what the fuss is all about unless you women somehow feel slighted because of the roles you have been given in this world. If that is the case then I am truely sorry for you because you have been given the better part of the deal in my opinion. Obviously there has to be some division of labor in the church and that is the way it is set up.

So fine, women receive the priesthood in the temple, but they aren't ordained to any office. Because they hold no office they hold no keys that come with the various offices. You have to remember what the priesthood is. It is the authority to act in the name of God. Can a woman act in the name of God? Well of course she can. I feel that this discussion is a spin off the familiar equal rights arguement but we can see how devestating to our society that has become.

[Elphaba]

I don't see what all this is about. I mean, if women couldn't receive a fulness of salvation without personally holding the priesthood then I'd get your concern. But what in the world is with the need to look for obscure diary entries to prove something that you all admit doesn't apply anymore? Is it to shake the big bad male hierarchy into realizing that we aren't superior to women?

The bulk of the information I have provided comes from the minutes of the "Quorum of the Anointed."

No Christ-like priesthood holder I know thinks he is "better" than any woman because he holds the priesthood. I just don't get what this whole discussion is about?

I agree and would never claim they did. The discussion is about a marvelous but brief moment in the Church's history.

If you were trying to lobby for womens' right to pass the sacrament or hold priesthood office, I'd get it. But none of you seem to be seeking such things. You're just saying, "According to such and such records, and if you interpret the Greek New Testament a certain way, then you see that women once held the Melchizedek Priesthood but not any office in it. Isn't that great?!"

You don't find that incredible from a historical perspective?

Maybe it's a woman/man thing. Maybe as a woman I find it more moving than a man would.

Or perhaps it's because historically I find it one of the most profound moments in the history of the Church.

But yes, that is all I'm saying. Once again, for a small moment in history, women did hold the highest order of the priesthood," exactly the same as the men did. They didn't need to hold an office; yet they held a pivotal role in the Anointed Quorum.

Obviously the thread has run itself out, as no one else seems to be as wowed by this as I am. I just have this image in my mind of Joseph, Emma, the Woodruffs, the Youngs, all of the founding fathers AND mothers, in their prayer circles, then as a council, discussing the events of the day, and the concerns of the Church, as equals, with all powers alike. It truly gives me chills.

Elphaba

P.S. To be clear, I am not saying women have the priesthood today or should be activists to do so. I have no opinion on that. E.

[Adomini22]

I agree with CKs point of view. Women are co-recievers of priesthood via their husbands most of the time anyways. The Quorum of the Annointed is referred to the fulness of priesthood plus achieving "calling and election made sure". Someone previously posted this, and it was a good post. That is why I gave a couple of sources regarding such. Elph, this will always be a good subject.

[Elphaba]

I feel that this discussion is a spin off the familiar equal rights arguement but we can see how devestating to our society that has become.

Checkerboy,

This discussion has been about a short period of time from the late 1830s to the early 1840s. The fact that you would write what you did above tells me you haven't read one thing I have written and know nothing about the subject matter.

In the future, if you're not going to actually read my posts, please don't bother to post in my threads. I know it's your choice, but I'm asking you as a favor.

Thanks,

Elphaba

[onyx]

Maybe it's a woman/man thing. Maybe as a woman I find it more moving than a man would.

Or perhaps it's because historically I find it one of the most profound moments in the history of the Church.

But yes, that is all I'm saying. Once again, for a small moment in history, women did hold the highest order of the priesthood," exactly the same as the men did. They didn't need to hold an office; yet they held a pivotal role in the Anointed Quorum.

Obviously the thread has run itself out, as no one else seems to be as wowed by this as I am. I just have this image in my mind of Joseph, Emma, the Woodruffs, the Youngs, all of the founding fathers AND mothers, in their prayer circles, then as a council, discussing the events of the day, and the concerns of the Church, as equals, with all powers alike. It truly gives me chills.

Elphaba

P.S. To be clear, I am not saying women have the priesthood today or should be activists to do so. I have no opinion on that. E.

Elph,

For what it's worth....

I've been following your thread with great interest.

I have found it fascinating.

Thanks for all the time, effort and detail.

I haven't contributed because I didn't really know how to respond.

I'm not eloquent like so many of you here on the forums.

But like you I am pretty wowed.

A couple of things came to mind for me:

1. Was the Prophet's mother, Lucy Mack Smith included?

2. My admiration for the Prophet Joseph Smith deepened further.

If all things were as you suggest, he was ahead of his time in his view of women.

At that time in North American history, women did not even have voting or land rights.

Yet, he advocated equality, just as he did with the slave issue.

Pretty awesome.

Those are my simple thoughts...for what they're worth. :)

[Gaia]

Okay, well then why don't you sisters go ask your Bishop to let you pass the sacrament this Sunday?

GAIA:

Partly becuase "passing the sacrament" has little to do with what we're talking about, and is certainly not the only PH responsibility. Why do some people insist on reducing this topic to positions and ordinances? Is that what Priesthood is to you?

CK:

I love how penlady uses one rogue bishop who isn't even sure about what he's doing to disprove the General Authorities and Church practice. Whatever floats your boat.

GAIA:

I didn't get the impression that Penlady was "using" that story to "disprove" anything, let alone anything asbout GA's and church practice. I got the impression she was merely contributing an interesting experience for our consideration and the benefit of the discussion.

CK:

I don't see what all this is about.

GAIA:

I've heard similar thoughts from other men in such discussions.

I'm not sure that it's "all about" any single thing; each of us has different 'takes' on the topic, different perspectives, different thoughts and responses .....

However (and with all due respect) == I cannot help but wonder whether, if the shoe was on the other foot -- if such discussions migh be easier to "get".

And in fact, I have written an article designed to help (some) LDS men "get it" -- Or at least, "get" what *some* women are trying to express in such discussions.

I wrote it some time ago, to try to explain how it feels for *some* of us, in the Church. I don't intend for it to be insulting or offensive, or any such thing at all; just to be a very vivid, eye-opening experience in seeing from another perspective. That is NOT necessarily to condemn anyone else's perspective or experience -- only to help understand another one a bit better. I ask all who read it to do so prayerfully, asking Heavenly Father to help you understand what i am trying to communicate --

I titled this, "a Nightmare Plan of Salvation" --

Imagine for a moment that somehow, the entire situation in the Church is completely reversed.

It is *women* who lead the ecclesiastical program of the Church, and women Priestesses make decisions about what is important and what isn't....

And we decided (with Inspiration from Heavenly Mother) that since you men have to go out and make a living in the world, you just don't have enough time and energy to also appropriately handle all the responsibilities of a male priesthood. It's revealed to the Prophetess of the Church that it's just not "an important part of the program" right now. So we (or rather, Heavenly Mother Goddess) *forbids* you from using male priesthood (of course, the term is not capitalized, the way *real* Priestesshood is).

You are discouraged from using the Gifts of the Spirit, and "advised" to "call for the Priestesshood" if any such spiritual ordinances or blessings are needed.

You attend General Conference with your children, (but your wife has special "Priestesshood Sessions" to which you are pointedly NOT invited) where you are taught (by FEMALE General Authorities) to "obey your Wife, and sustain her Priestesshood" and obey Heavenly Mother. If "Heavenly father" is mentioned at all, it's in sentimental but vague terms designed to keep Him definitely in the background. You don't need Him, after all -- your exemplar is Y'Shua Christa, our Lady and Savioress, Who came to lead us all back to Heavenly Mother, our Goddess and "the only Goddess with whom we have to do." The term "god" becomes a strange, foriegn one that even sounds weird -- and faintly hints at paganism.

You stay home with the kids a lot, in order to support your wife's Priestesshood responsibilities, and you're often counseled (in the men's auxiliary) how important and "exalted" is your calling in that regard -- as a "helpmeet" and support for your wife, the Priestesshood holder.

After all, you're often reminded in church talks, you men -- represented by Adam -- were the ones who resisted and had to be encouraged by Great Mother Eve to enter fully into Heavenly Mother's glorious Plan of Salvation.

When your wife is absent, of course, your eleven year old daughter is encouraged to assume "Priestesshood responsbility" for the entire household, and you support her in that. Your sons are all raised from infancy to honor, sustain and especially *obey* the Priestesshood, especially in their sisters and mother. They never even *hear* that there is anything called "priesthood" -- in fact, if by chance somebody does happen to mention the idea, they are taught to grow offended and defensive -- "I don't NEED any male priesthood, my Mom has the REAL Priestesshood, and when i get married, my Wife will have it...and besides -- heheh -- who would *want* all that responsibility?"

The (all female) General Authorities like to say that men "hold the Priesthood when they hold their wives"....hehehheh.

All the church manuals, lessons and scriptures are rewritten ("Preistesshood Correlation", yknow) to excise any references to male priesthood. You are of course forbidden to discuss it in the "men's auxiliary" program --

-- And besides, you're too busy there learning how to become a more appealing husband, and create a comfortable, pleasing home "retreat" for your Priestesshood wife when she returns home from her very important and demanding Priestesshood responsibilities.

You look on in pride when your Preistesshood wife (together with other Priestesshood women) blesses and names, then baptizes and confirms, each of your children in turn.....

Together, you teach your girl children to prepare to serve an honorable Mission; and you teach your boys to work toward being worthy of the greatest honor and opportunity, one of the greatest moments of their lives -- being sealed in the Temple to an honorable, active, Returned Missionary Priestesshood holder.

You notice how people begin confusing the term "women" with "Priestesshood", like "We're waiting for the Priestesshood to arrive, before we start the meeting," and "We're so grateful to the men for supporting the Priestesshood pancake breakfast." It vaguely reminds you of announcements like, "Everyone is invited to the Ward Dinner -- and bring your husbands, too." But you can't quite figure out why.

In Sunday school lessons, you learn about the history of the world and the absolutely crucial role that Priestesshood has played in Heavenly Mother's great Plan....

-- You come to admire all the great Preistesses down through history, and you resolve to work to become more like them;

And of course, in your male auxiliary meetings, you're encouraged to work hard on overcoming those troublesome male weaknesses like assertiveness, selfishness, pridefulness, acquisitiveness (leads to greed), arrogance, independence, etc; And begin developing an appreciation for and facility with important spiritual principles like "interdependence", "egalitarianism," mutual support and sensitivity; And you work hard on developing qualities more like those great priestesses -- wisdom, compassion, kindness, empathy, sensitivity, patience, humility, meekness, obedience, and modesty.

When somebody makes a joke in Sunday School about how dense poor old Adam was in the garden, and how men have never quite "woken up" from that "deep sleep" put on them, you feel a vague discomfort but remind yourself that it's just a joke and you shouldn't be so easily offended.

And, as one dear brother comments thoughtfully, men *have* been denied Priestesshood, so maybe there *is* something about them that is lacking.....

When you go to the Temple, you notice that you also wear (a version of) the "Robes of the Holy Preistesshood" -- but nobody can explain to you why, unless you also have some kind of male priesthood???

And you consider how there *are* men who perform ordinances in the Temple... but how can they do that, unless they have some sort of -- male priesthood??? -- And come to think of it, you (vaguely) remember how once upon a time, people *used* to talk about something called men's "priesthood" -- but where has it gone? --

But If you raise any of those questions to someone who should know -- like the Temple Presidentess, for example, -- she smiles indulgently, pats you on the arm, and says:

"Oh, dear brother, you're such a *sweet*, noble spirit, aren't you -- always worrying about such things....

You don't want to go grey -- or bald! -- before your time, do you? Heheh...

Some day we'll have all the answers ...but right now what's important is for you to go home, be a good husband and support your wife's Holy Priestesshood."

If you ever mention the idea again, the "big guns" are brought out -- -- You're accused of not appreciating your important, exalted role in the Queendom of the Goddess as your wife's very important support;

-- Of misunderstanding Priestesshood entirely; Of "coveting" it and its authority and power. You're asked why you want to be a Bishopess, or pass the sacrament, anyway....

You're asked what your problem is with the natural order that the Lady established, or with power and authority -- Perhaps you've had some unfortunate experiences with some particular holder of the Priestesshood that has made you angry, hostile and bitter, and misunderstand Priestesshood entirely.

After all, you know, Priestesshood is really about *service*, not getting things for yourself -- and obviously you're not even worthy of it when you so misunderstand it. And finally, you're reminded that questioning the leaders or the policies of the Church, sowing questions and discord, is after all, the Way of Satan -- (that personification and manifestation of ultimate Male pride, arrogance, greed, independence, and assertiveness). Even discussing the very idea of male priesthood could get you hauled into the Bishopess's office -- After all, there's the "Strengthening the Members" committee that is on guard against such dangerous, heretical ideas.

So you keep your head down, rid it entirely of such questions, and focus -- as you're told -- on being a good, obedient, loving, supportive, attractive husband who can make your wife happy and proud; and making your household the lovely, well-ordered, well-run, pleasing, econonomical and comfortable home and haven that it should be, for your wife and children, who so depend upon you.

You even take up knitting, crocheting, canning and quilting to keep yourself appropriately, righteously busy -- men's idle thoughts and hands are so dangerous, yknow.

You are taught to look forward and work diligently for that glorious day when your Priestesshood wife will call you forth into the Resurrection of the Just, and lead you through the "veil" --

-- Which could be, as some great scriptorian High Priestesses speculated to you once, when you were allowed to remain in one of the women's private "Gospel Doctrine" discussions -- -- The symbolic "hymen" over the "Holy of Holies" which represents the Great Mother Goddess Herself --

-- Into the Presence of Christa and Heavenly Mother, where you (together with all your wife's other husbands, of course) will go on to create and build up Her Kingdom --

-- And you will finally get to be a real Priest -- unto her.

Ah, it's a glorious life, a glorious Gospel, a glorious Plan of Salvation, isn't it.

~End.

[Elphaba]

Hello Gaia,

First I want to tell you I have read your posts in the past and have enjoyed them. I have gleaned some solid historical information that has led me to other information that has exponentially flowered into more information than I know what to do with. But that's a grand thing for me, because I love the history.

However, on this thread I am adamant that I want to stick with the Quorum of the Anointed in the late 1830s and early 1840s. I find your posts going far beyond this particular moment of history, and therefore going way off point.

So, would you please, if you still wish to discuss women and the priesthood in the fashion you've posted here, start a new thread?

Thank you,

Elphaba

[Adomini22]

wow, that post must have taken a long time to write.

[Elphaba]

Elph,

For what it's worth....

I've been following your thread with great interest.

I have found it fascinating.

Thanks for all the time, effort and detail.

I haven't contributed because I didn't really know how to respond.

I'm not eloquent like so many of you here on the forums.

But like you I am pretty wowed.

Before I go on, you should know I am an ex-Mormon.

However, if you are as wowed by this as I am, than I am ecstatic. I love the history of the Church, and believe this is truly a diamond in a little timeframe that sparkles so bright it makes my eyes squint. What I wouldn't give to have been a fly on the wall to see these women ordained, and being treated as full participants by Joseph.

1. Was the Prophet's mother, Lucy Mack Smith included?

Yes, she was. She and her deceased husband (by proxy), received their second anointings on November 12, 1843. I have references that say she participated in the prayer circles, but I don't find anything that says she participating in future anointings. She was often ill by this time, so she may not have been up to it. But the "second anointing" at the time meant she would have been ordained the "highest order of the priesthood."

2. My admiration for the Prophet Joseph Smith deepened further.

If all things were as you suggest, he was ahead of his time in his view of women.

At that time in North American history, women did not even have voting or land rights.

Yet, he advocated equality, just as he did with the slave issue.

Pretty awesome.

I agree. It's my belief that it was his intent that they have the Priesthood, though I don't think he was quite ready for them to share it in exactly the same manner as the men. Still.

There are those who say he gave it to the women to placate them, especially because of polygamny. I don't really know the answer to that. Perhaps it's a bit of both.

But I do believe his respect for the elite wome in his Quorum of the Anointed was real--who wouldn't be awed by these incredible women? He needed them desperately, and giving them the Priesthood would only make sense if he felt that way. If only he had lived.

Elphaba

[CrimsonKairos]

Sorry Gaia, I didn't read that whole thing. Whew!

It's not like having the priesthood lets you get into a VIP room in the Church with free ice cream sundaes and big screen tv's playing BYU-TV 24/7.

Like Elphaba said, your point is beyond the scope of her original post. And I think you don't understand what the priesthood is for. It doesn't glorify those who hold it; those who hold it glorify God. Every blessing that comes through the priesthood is available to those who hold it, and those who don't. All are equal in the promise of salvation and exaltation.

p.s. Jason, I think that verse you cited from the D&C means "blessing" the sacrament when it says "administer."

[Snow]

The discussion is about a marvelous but brief moment in the Church's history.

Yes - it was a magical, mystical time when the sun and moon aligned, the morning dew smelled like honey, women were raised on a pedastle and all men looked like Brad Pitt in Legends of the Fall.

This should be easy to settle. Scripture is quite clear about priesthood authority, who has it, who is eligible.

What scripture supports your view? I'm guessing none. Am I right?

[Moksha]

Yes - it was a magical, mystical time when the sun and moon aligned, the morning dew smelled like honey, women were raised on a pedastle and all men looked like Brad Pitt in Legends of the Fall.

Are you speaking of the days of the Eisenhower administration?

Sorry Elf, I will not further sidetrack the points made by yourself and Gaia.

[onyx]

Sorry Gaia, I didn't read that whole thing. Whew!

It's not like having the priesthood lets you get into a VIP room in the Church with free ice cream sundaes and big screen tv's playing BYU-TV 24/7.

Whaaatttt???

Now you have totally shattered my delusions CrimsonKairos!!

I thought that's what the High Council meetings were all about???

Tee hee hee

[onyx]

<div class='quotemain'>Elph,

For what it's worth....

I've been following your thread with great interest.

I have found it fascinating.

Thanks for all the time, effort and detail.

I haven't contributed because I didn't really know how to respond.

I'm not eloquent like so many of you here on the forums.

But like you I am pretty wowed.

Before I go on, you should know I am an ex-Mormon.

Yes, Elphaba - I had picked that up in bits and pieces from other threads.

Just so you know, it's not an issue for me at all.

However, if you are as wowed by this as I am, than I am ecstatic. I love the history of the Church, and believe this is truly a diamond in a little timeframe that sparkles so bright it makes my eyes squint. What I wouldn't give to have been a fly on the wall to see these women ordained, and being treated as full participants by Joseph.

I shared some of it with my husband and he was fascinated too.

1. Was the Prophet's mother, Lucy Mack Smith included?

Yes, she was. She and her deceased husband (by proxy), received their second anointings on November 12, 1843. I have references that say she participated in the prayer circles, but I don't find anything that says she participating in future anointings. She was often ill by this time, so she may not have been up to it. But the "second anointing" at the time meant she would have been ordained the "highest order of the priesthood."

I would have been surprised if she hadn't been included.

She is noted as being an outstanding woman.

Quite the church historian in her own right in terms of her personal journalling.

2. My admiration for the Prophet Joseph Smith deepened further.

If all things were as you suggest, he was ahead of his time in his view of women.

At that time in North American history, women did not even have voting or land rights.

Yet, he advocated equality, just as he did with the slave issue.

Pretty awesome.

I agree. It's my belief that it was his intent that they have the Priesthood, though I don't think he was quite ready for them to share it in exactly the same manner as the men. Still.

There are those who say he gave it to the women to placate them, especially because of polygamny. I don't really know the answer to that. Perhaps it's a bit of both.

But I do believe his respect for the elite wome in his Quorum of the Anointed was real--who wouldn't be awed by these incredible women? He needed them desperately, and giving them the Priesthood would only make sense if he felt that way. If only he had lived.

Elphaba

He certainly was an amazing seer and revelator.

The things he saw and understood!!

This was a great thread....thank you again!

Some of my comments are mingled in with the blue type in the above post.

Not quite sure what I did wrong.

Still learning how to use all the functions.

Sorry for my technical inabilities.

Hope you can make heads and tails of it.

Onyx