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How are the FLDS still functioning?

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Warren Jeffs is in prison for life and Lyle Jeffs is in jail too. Who do they have to lead the cult members and how will they survive? And why doesn't the government go in and shut down the whole organization saving the children being abused or neglected in the communities.

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This was a minor interest of mine a couple of years ago when I read a book about a woman who escaped with her 8 children. It was (is?) a prison town, really. Leaving was (is?) next to impossible for the women and children. Their church leadership controls everything up to the police force. The police don't allow women to leave town without their husbands, and if they try they are detained and their husbands called.

Apparently since Jeffs left, they've changed some things; brought back schools, eased some of the crazy restrictions he put on the people, etc. I know little else, but it sounds like things aren't as bad with him gone ("as bad" being relative... things as Jeffs ran them were really really bad for everyone but him and his cronies). I'm not sure who's running the show. 

There are other little dogpatch areas anywhere I've gone, that make me wonder how they survive. People manage. 

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10 minutes ago, Eowyn said:

This was a minor interest of mine a couple of years ago when I read a book about a woman who escaped with her 8 children. It was (is?) a prison town, really. Leaving was (is?) next to impossible for the women and children. Their church leadership controls everything up to the police force. The police don't allow women to leave town without their husbands, and if they try they are detained and their husbands called.

Apparently since Jeffs left, they've changed some things; brought back schools, eased some of the crazy restrictions he put on the people, etc. I know little else, but it sounds like things aren't as bad with him gone ("as bad" being relative... things as Jeffs ran them were really really bad for everyone but him and his cronies). I'm not sure who's running the show. 

There are other little dogpatch areas anywhere I've gone, that make me wonder how they survive. People manage. 

So creepy. 

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12 hours ago, Zarahemla said:

Warren Jeffs is in prison for life and Lyle Jeffs is in jail too. Who do they have to lead the cult members and how will they survive?

Being in jail does not mean they can not communicate... it just means they need lackeys to carry out what they can't do for themselves

 

12 hours ago, Zarahemla said:

And why doesn't the government go in and shut down the whole organization saving the children being abused or neglected in the communities.

It is one thing to say and believe that... it is quite another to be able to prove that... Especially when the best source of that proof (the wives and kids) are not co-operative.

Weaponizing the Government to disregard is own laws and protections is a bad idea.  Today it might be aimed a group you don't like/agree with... but as the election showed the facing of Government can change quickly.. so tomorrow it could be aimed at you, if you allow it that power.

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3 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

 

Weaponizing the Government to disregard is own laws and protections is a bad idea.  Today it might be aimed a group you don't like/agree with... but as the election showed the facing of Government can change quickly.. so tomorrow it could be aimed at you, if you allow it that power.

Exactly.  

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2 minutes ago, zil said:

Yes, nothing at all like our compound...

BTW: I found another tunnel - this one going under the south wall.  The contractors are preparing bids to seal it off as I type.

Well in fairness we have been negotiating with the local police-but that's our little secret. 

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2 hours ago, Eowyn said:

This was a minor interest of mine a couple of years ago when I read a book about a woman who escaped with her 8 children. It was (is?) a prison town, really. Leaving was (is?) next to impossible for the women and children. Their church leadership controls everything up to the police force. The police don't allow women to leave town without their husbands, and if they try they are detained and their husbands called.

Apparently since Jeffs left, they've changed some things; brought back schools, eased some of the crazy restrictions he put on the people, etc. I know little else, but it sounds like things aren't as bad with him gone ("as bad" being relative... things as Jeffs ran them were really really bad for everyone but him and his cronies). I'm not sure who's running the show.

The FLDS are a deeply troubled community, and many of Jeffs' antics seem downright horrifying.  That said, if you're referring to Carolyn Jessop's memoirs; I think she personally does have some significant credibility issues (as does Elisa Wall).  I daresay most FLDS sincerely believe their faith, and that the women and children consider themselves as enjoying quite as much liberty within their patriarchal system, as pioneer Mormon women and children did within their own patriarchal system.. 

When I was in law school some years ago I met one of Jeffs' lawyers, who was there doing a presentation.  He confirmed that the church *does* have apostles, who at that time had pretty much gone to ground--but there apparently is a substantial second-tier leadership corps.  IIRC, after the YFZ raid the FLDS did announce that they would stop doing underaged marraiges. 

14 hours ago, Zarahemla said:

And why doesn't the government go in and shut down the whole organization saving the children being abused or neglected in the communities.

From a child protection law standpoint:  Most (maybe all?) state constitutions acknowledge a parent's right to the care and upbringing of their own children. The child welfare system wasn't really designed to address parents who differ ideologically or religiously from state-sanctioned mores.  It was designed to intervene if there is overwhelming evidence that kids are in immediate risk of suffering immediate and identifiable harm.  And you have to look at each kid (well, each family unit) individually--it's not enough to say "well, they're a member of this group, so they're per se at risk.  Forcibly removing a child from its parents is a traumatic thing for everyone involved (I deal with this on a daily basis--it's my primary area of legal practice at present), and it's not something to be done lightly.

When you get into communities like the FLDS--as @estradling75 says, there's just a dearth of evidence.  If a kid is being fed, housed, and clothed; and the parents aren't strung out on drugs; and they're not showing signs of physical mistreatment--you're going to have a hard time convincing a court that the kid needs to be torn from the only home (s)he has ever known.  Easily 3/4 of the child removal cases I handle, were done after an investigation in which a CPS worker gained devastatingly self-incriminatory statements from the parents or the children themselves.  If there's no external evidence of inadequate shelter/clothing/food or physical injury, and the subjects of the investigation won't talk to CPS, and if there are no public schools so that CPS can visit the kids away from their parents (yes, folks, CPS can go to your kid's school and talk to him without your knowledge or consent)--the child welfare system isn't going to be able to do very much. 

The most you can really say with regard to the FLDS, is that they are being taught theology that--in ten or fifteen years--may result in their being either a victim or a perpetrator of abuse.  As I recall, that was Texas' argument during the YFZ raid a few years back--that the boys were being groomed to become sexual assault perps once they grew up; and that the girls were being groomed to become sexual assault victims once they hit their mid-teens.  The Texas Supreme Court replied "well, wait a minute--most of these kids are infants and pre-teens, and they aren't in any immediate danger"; and so it sent the bulk of the kids back home.

I'm a born pessimist, and I think government's treatment for the FLDS is a bellwether for how they'll be treating us in a decade or two.  So except in cases where I see clear and convincing evidence of a crime (and, yes, there's plenty within the FLDS community)--my inclination is to cut them a break whenever possible.  Because in the eyes of a lot of secularists--once they're done breaking up the FLDS, they're coming after us.

Edited by Just_A_Guy

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20 hours ago, Zarahemla said:

How are the FLDS still functioning?

Warren Jeffs is in prison for life and Lyle Jeffs is in jail too. Who do they have to lead the cult members and how will they survive? And why doesn't the government go in and shut down the whole organization saving the children being abused or neglected in the communities.

An 1838 Missouri Newspaper might have read almost the same. The same type of ideas/arguments have been used against us before. 

How is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints still functioning?

Joseph Smith, Hyrum Smith, and Sidney Rigdon and others are in Liberty Jail. Who do they have to lead the cult members and how will they survive? And why doesn't the government go in and shut down the whole organization saving the children being abused or neglected in the communities.

q.jpg

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3 hours ago, NeedleinA said:

An 1838 Missouri Newspaper might have read almost the same. The same type of ideas/arguments have been used against us before. 

How is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints still functioning?

Joseph Smith, Hyrum Smith, and Sidney Rigdon and others are in Liberty Jail. Who do they have to lead the cult members and how will they survive? And why doesn't the government go in and shut down the whole organization saving the children being abused or neglected in the communities.

q.jpg

Ah yes, Missouri, the state that legalized the murder of Mormons via the Extermination Act, then forgot about it until the 1970s. Doh!

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19 hours ago, Godless said:

Ah yes, Missouri, the state that legalized the murder of Mormons via the Extermination Act, then forgot about it until the 1970s. Doh!

Missouri, a great state for buying fireworks, the LDS Independence Visitor's Center and driving through to get to a state you actually want to visit.;)

Many people have and do point fingers labeling us and accusing us of things, I hope we do our best not to turn around and pass on the "un"favor to other religions/individuals/FLDS. 
 

Edited by NeedleinA

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Interesting thread. I have watched all the youtube flds videos, followed the news over the years as it comes into the mainline media. I really hope these people are improving their lives after such upset. A few years have past and hopefully most of their troubles.

 

Styln

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6 hours ago, MarginOfError said:

Having lived in Cleveland, I will tell you it is actually a fantastic place to live. Great museums, parks, and health care.

Except you have to deal with the unending disappointments of the Tribe, the Browns, and the Cavs.  And then there's Sperry Road.

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