Spencer Kimball's Teachings


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"One of the most fallacious doctrines originated by Satan and propounded by man is that man is saved alone by the grace of God; that belief in Jesus Christ alone is all that is needed for salvation." (The Mircale of Forgiveness, Spencer W. Kimball pp. 206-207)

Doesn't the Bible say, "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." Ephesians 2:8-9?

Also: "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. " John 3:16-18

"we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another. But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. " Titus 3:3-7

So was Kimball saying that these biblical teachings were originated by Satan and are not God's word?

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So was Kimball saying that these biblical teachings were originated by Satan and are not God's word?

Sheeze - if you are going to be a troll - at least try and be clever, or subtle, or intelligent or something.

Since you're guilty of making making a dufus post, here's your assignment: Post 10 biblical scriptures that say that salvation does not come about purely as matter of grace through faith alone.

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So was Kimball saying that these biblical teachings were originated by Satan and are not God's word?

Sheeze - if you are going to be a troll - at least try and be clever, or subtle, or intelligent or something.

Since you're guilty of making making a dufus post, here's your assignment: Post 10 biblical scriptures that say that salvation does not come about purely as matter of grace through faith alone.

Not sure what a troll is, except in kids' stories, and I'd like to think I'm a little more handsome! :D

Seriously though, I asked a sensible question, quoting Spencer W Kimball and the Bible on the 'gospel discussion' board so I don't think I've done anything wrong. I guess I'll ask the question again to see if someone will answer:

"So was Kimball saying that these biblical teachings were originated by Satan and are not God's word?"

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Not sure what a troll is, except in kids' stories, and I'd like to think I'm a little more handsome! :D

Seriously though, I asked a sensible question, quoting Spencer W Kimball and the Bible on the 'gospel discussion' board so I don't think I've done anything wrong. I guess I'll ask the question again to see if someone will answer:

"So was Kimball saying that these biblical teachings were originated by Satan and are not God's word?"

You think it is a sensible question to ask whether President Kimball who belived and taught that the bible was the Word of God also believe that the Word of God originated with the devil.

Obviously you think we're morons but I can tell you that this adolescent type of question has been posed hundreds or time. It was just as dumb the first time as it is this time.

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Not sure what a troll is, except in kids' stories, and I'd like to think I'm a little more handsome! :D

Seriously though, I asked a sensible question, quoting Spencer W Kimball and the Bible on the 'gospel discussion' board so I don't think I've done anything wrong. I guess I'll ask the question again to see if someone will answer:

"So was Kimball saying that these biblical teachings were originated by Satan and are not God's word?"

You think it is a sensible question to ask whether President Kimball who belived and taught that the bible was the Word of God also believe that the Word of God originated with the devil.

Obviously you think we're morons but I can tell you that this adolescent type of question has been posed hundreds or time. It was just as dumb the first time as it is this time.

I haven't called anyone a moron, but you have referred to my comments as "dumb", "dufus" and "adolescent".

The reason I think my question is sensible, is because Spencer Kimball said that, teaching that belief in Jesus is all that is necessary for salvation, was an idea originated by Satan; yet this teaching can be found in the Bible on numerous occasions. So I was wondering what Kimball thought about those words that I quoted. He seems to be saying in "The Miracle of Forgiveness" that they come from Satan.

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I haven't called anyone a moron,

No - you only THINK that were morons.

but you have referred to my comments as "dumb", "dufus" and "adolescent".

Precisely. I could have referred to your comments as intelligent, insightful, and probing but that wouldn't have made any sense, now would it.

The reason I think my question is sensible, is because Spencer Kimball said that, teaching that belief in Jesus is all that is necessary for salvation, was an idea originated by Satan; yet this teaching can be found in the Bible on numerous occasions. So I was wondering what Kimball thought about those words that I quoted. He seems to be saying in "The Miracle of Forgiveness" that they come from Satan.

Yeah - thanks for clarifying for the third time - as if we didn't get it the first two times.

Troll.

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"One of the most fallacious doctrines originated by Satan and propounded by man is that man is saved alone by the grace of God; that belief in Jesus Christ alone is all that is needed for salvation." (The Mircale of Forgiveness, Spencer W. Kimball pp. 206-207)

Doesn't the Bible say, "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." Ephesians 2:8-9?

Also: "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. " John 3:16-18

So was Kimball saying that these biblical teachings were originated by Satan and are not God's word?

No...President Kimball was refering to mainstream Christiandom's interpretation of the Biblical scriptures you quoted!

Doesn't the Bible say, "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." Ephesians 2:8-9?

The true meaning of this scripture is that "we are all saved through faith in Christ and not by our own hand as we cannot save ourselves".....it is a gift from God....and no "man" can save himself or should boast that he can. It does not mean we should not follow the command of God to serve our neighbor and do good "works" upon the earth and to make sacred covenants with Him through the ordinances of the Gospel.

Also: "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. " John 3:16-18

And where pray tell does President Kimball say this scripture is untrue? Yes it's true...through faith in Jesus Chist and the saving Ordinances of the Gospel (works) one can have eternal life.

I can quote scripture all day long showing the value of "works" in justifying faith in regards to being saved...

James 2:14-24

14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,

16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Before you post your next anti-Mormon question read the board and past post topics....this ones been beaten to death as well as most of the other anti-Mormon garbage that has been floating around for the past 150 years.

Oh...BTW here's some modern day scripture that shows the importance of the Ordinances (works) of the Gospel of Jesus Christ:

D&C 132: 32

32 Go ye, therefore, and do the aworks of Abraham; enter ye into my law and ye shall be saved.

ALMA 5:15-20

15 Do ye exercise faith in the redemption of him who created you? Do you look forward with an eye of faith, and view this mortal body raised in immortality, and this corruption raised in incorruption, to stand before God to be judged according to the deeds which have been done in the mortal body?

16 I say unto you, can you imagine to yourselves that ye hear the voice of the Lord, saying unto you, in that day: Come unto me ye blessed, for behold, your works have been the works of righteousness upon the face of the earth?

17 Or do ye imagine to yourselves that ye can lie unto the Lord in that day, and say—Lord, our works have been righteous works upon the face of the earth—and that he will save you?

18 Or otherwise, can ye imagine yourselves brought before the tribunal of God with your souls filled with guilt and remorse, having a remembrance of all your guilt, yea, a perfect remembrance of all your wickedness, yea, a remembrance that ye have set at defiance the commandments of God?

19 I say unto you, can ye look up to God at that day with a pure heart and clean hands? I say unto you, can you look up, having the image of God engraven upon your countenances?

20 I say unto you, can ye think of being saved when you have yielded yourselves to become subjects to the devil?

And now a question for you: Why is it so hard for you to believe that the Lord leads and guides His church in these days? And that further light and knowledge of the Gospel has been given to man in these latter days?? You actually think God has stopped guiding his children as he did in the past? You don't suppose He restored the Gospel to the Earth in it's fullest because precious parts of it were lost and some simple truths were twisted by man? Could it be you deny the truth because you haven't really searched for it? You take the word of some preacher or some anti-Mormon literature? Try reading the Book of Mormon and the Doctrine and Covenants with and open heart and mind....then go to the source and humble yourself and ask God whether these things are not true.....or are you too afraid to? Gonna listen to your Minister/Preacher/Priest or your Father in Heaven? You will never know the truth until you sincerely search for it and then ask God to make manifest the truth to you. Don't trust some preacher who's hellbent on keeping you in his congregation...remember he needs your offerings for his living.

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So was Kimball saying that these biblical teachings were originated by Satan and are not God's word?

Sheeze - if you are going to be a troll - at least try and be clever, or subtle, or intelligent or something.

Since you're guilty of making making a dufus post, here's your assignment: Post 10 biblical scriptures that say that salvation does not come about purely as matter of grace through faith alone.

Not sure what a troll is, except in kids' stories, and I'd like to think I'm a little more handsome! :D

Seriously though, I asked a sensible question, quoting Spencer W Kimball and the Bible on the 'gospel discussion' board so I don't think I've done anything wrong. I guess I'll ask the question again to see if someone will answer:

"So was Kimball saying that these biblical teachings were originated by Satan and are not God's word?"

did you read that yourself or did you visit a nice anti site????

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So was Kimball saying that these biblical teachings were originated by Satan and are not God's word?

Sheeze - if you are going to be a troll - at least try and be clever, or subtle, or intelligent or something.

Since you're guilty of making making a dufus post, here's your assignment: Post 10 biblical scriptures that say that salvation does not come about purely as matter of grace through faith alone.

Not sure what a troll is, except in kids' stories, and I'd like to think I'm a little more handsome! :D

How long have you been on the net? anyone who has been on any message board for more than a month knows what a troll is in the internet sense. Playing dumb won't help you here.

Seriously though, I asked a sensible question, quoting Spencer W Kimball and the Bible on the 'gospel discussion' board so I don't think I've done anything wrong. I guess I'll ask the question again to see if someone will answer:

"So was Kimball saying that these biblical teachings were originated by Satan and are not God's word?"

No.

But lame as it was, it was a nice try as far as trolls go. Okay, who am I kiddng? It was a rotten first try as a troll. You need to read better anti-Mormon sites before you come in here and try your hand at it. Keep trying, though. Tact is a skill that will serve you well in your future trolling, and you will avoid the pitfalls of those who have come before you.

Next time, why not try the 'sneak-attack' approach to anti-Mormonism? Isn't there a website where you could practice your new-found trolling skills before trying them out on real people? You could have fellow haters critique your style and means of attack, and help you to hone your needling skills.

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Name the song that these lyrics come from - traveling over the same old ground. But do we have, the same old fears. Wish you were hear.

Just thought I would try and lighten the mood.

allmosthumble

pink floyd...wish you were here

I love Pink Floyd music....awesome

Yeah, the line about 'wish you were here' was a dead giveaway to the song.

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"One of the most fallacious doctrines originated by Satan and propounded by man is that man is saved alone by the grace of God; that belief in Jesus Christ alone is all that is needed for salvation." (The Mircale of Forgiveness, Spencer W. Kimball pp. 206-207)

Doesn't the Bible say, "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." Ephesians 2:8-9?

Also: "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. " John 3:16-18

"we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another. But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. " Titus 3:3-7

So was Kimball saying that these biblical teachings were originated by Satan and are not God's word?

Rather than blast you personally like everyone else, I'll simply answer your question that if you believe that all you have to do is accept Jesus Christ as your Savior, and that you have no further responsibility to keep the commandments(which was Spencer W. Kimball's point), then you do not believe the Bible...You cannot understand the role of Grace and Works by quoting a few scriptures from the Apostle Paul in which he is reprimanding Christians for not accepting grace and believing they still had to keep THE LAW OF MOSES(which was an entirely new concept they had innitially accepted, but that Paul had to reinforce).

I believe Jesus on this subject:

"Greater love hath no man than this, that a man should lay down his life for his friends. Ye are my friends if ye do whatsoever I command you."

Kinda sounds like in order to make the sacrifice of our Lord effective in our lives we not only need to BELIEVE but we also need to keep his commands...It is a covenant relationship in which his Grace satisfies the demands of Gods Justice for violation of eternal law...Our part in that covenant is to do our best (not just believe alone) and when we fall short, we repent. That is what Kimball (Have you even read his book from which you so liberally quote, or did you just copy someone elses quote from his book? I have read his book and am currently reading it again right now.)was saying, and it is absolutely what Jesus and the Bible (in countless places) teaches. The New Testament teaches the covenant relationship and you need to take all scriptures on the subject into account, including their context...It is an absolute lie of the devil that ALL we have to do is accept Jesus and we are saved.

On my mission in Texas, I encountered a man (happened to be Southern Baptist) who said he could murder me and my companion, and then shoot himself and he would still go to heaven because he was saved by Grace...He even held up his Bible and said he did not even need this anymore, and threw it across the yard...Granted he was a bit extreme and animated, but is that the camp your in? Do you believe you can you do whatever you want now that your "saved" and still go to heaven? I hope not. Now it should also be pointed out, that keeping the commandments ALONE will not get us to heaven without belief in and acceptance of Christ's Grace....Mormons do not believe they can or have to work there way to heaven...we understand the covenant relationship that we have with our Lord (Jesus)whom we must accept and submit ourselves too...Kimball was rejecting the idea that acceptance of Christ's grace gives us a license to continue our wanton ways without fear of consequence(which would be a a pernicious lie of the devil)...Had you read his entire book, instead of just your quote, you would know that his book is calling believers in Christ to repentance not rejecting the concept of Grace.

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Rather than blast you personally like everyone else, I'll simply answer your question that if you believe that all you have to do is accept Jesus Christ as your Savior, and that you have no further responsibility to keep the commandments(which was Spencer W. Kimball's point), then you do not believe the Bible...

- Thanks for actually engaging with the question :-) The Bible does actually teach that you are saved before you have done any 'works' necessary for salvation: "And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it" Colossians 2:13-15 and also: "But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus." Ephesians 2:4-7 These two quotations make it clear that Christ saves, determines the Eternal destiny of believers while they are yet 'dead in sins'. It was Jesus who did this, not those who were dead in sins.

You cannot understand the role of Grace and Works by quoting a few scriptures from the Apostle Paul in which he is reprimanding Christians for not accepting grace and believing they still had to keep THE LAW OF MOSES(which was an entirely new concept they had innitially accepted, but that Paul had to reinforce).

- Paul does teach that the law of Moses has been fulfilled in Christ. It was fulfilled because Jesus kept the Law and as such was the only sacrifice 'without blemish' that would be acceptable as a propitiation for our sins. Thus Paul was teaching that we can only be saved by putting our total trust and faith in Him and His acceptable sacrifice.

I believe Jesus on this subject:

"Greater love hath no man than this, that a man should lay down his life for his friends. Ye are my friends if ye do whatsoever I command you."

Jesus did indeed teach them this, but there are numerous examples of where Jesus taught that people's faith had saved them, not actions. People will then recognise these people as his disciples by their actions, as is taught in Hebrews, and James.

Kinda sounds like in order to make the sacrifice of our Lord effective in our lives we not only need to BELIEVE but we also need to keep his commands...It is a covenant relationship in which his Grace satisfies the demands of Gods Justice for violation of eternal law...Our part in that covenant is to do our best (not just believe alone) and when we fall short, we repent.

- I don't see the Bible teaching that we must do our best in order to be saved. It repeatedly talks about salvation through faith and not works.

That is what Kimball (Have you even read his book from which you so liberally quote, or did you just copy someone elses quote from his book? I have read his book and am currently reading it again right now.)was saying, and it is absolutely what Jesus and the Bible (in countless places) teaches.

- I would like to see one or two places where Jesus teaches that we must do our best in order to be saved.

The New Testament teaches the covenant relationship and you need to take all scriptures on the subject into account, including their context...It is an absolute lie of the devil that ALL we have to do is accept Jesus and we are saved.

- Please show me then from the Bible that we are saved through a covenant relationship in which we must try our best and have repented of all outstanding sins.

On my mission in Texas, I encountered a man (happened to be Southern Baptist) who said he could murder me and my companion, and then shoot himself and he would still go to heaven because he was saved by Grace...He even held up his Bible and said he did not even need this anymore, and threw it across the yard...Granted he was a bit extreme and animated, but is that the camp your in? Do you believe you can you do whatever you want now that your "saved" and still go to heaven? I hope not.

- When we are saved, we are called to produce works to demonstrate our faith. As pointed out in James, and also here: "Furthermore then we beseech you, brethren, and exhort you by the Lord Jesus, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please God, so ye would abound more and more." 1 Thessalonians 4:1. God promises to save those who believe (see John 3) and he does not go back on His promises. 2 Thessalonians 2:16-17 sums this up fantastically: "Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace, Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work." Firstly it confirms that we have everlasting consolation and good hope through grace. If Jesus' promises could be perpetually revoked then reinstated as He seemed fit we could not have such consolation and hope. Secondly, the writer (Paul) asks God to 'stablish in you every good word and work'. He is thus acknowledging both the importance of doing good work, and also that this comes from God Himself, it is not ours to boast about. My point is that God can forgive all sin, and will keep his promises, and also that we are expected to present works that demonstrate that we have been saved. Therefore you could question the heart of someone claiming that it is of no importance whether or not he kills someone. That would not be a reflection of the love God had shown that individual through saving him.

-Don't forget that "neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord." Romans 8:38-39

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"So was Kimball saying that these biblical teachings were originated by Satan and are not God's word?"

I'm sure he was speaking of the heresy of antinomianism (the very thing that some of the great reformers themselves denounced). It is often a byproduct of "grace alone" recognition. It is through G-d’s grace that we are saved. There are however a few things He has asked of us to receive His infinite grace.

Satan’s origination is not the Biblical teachings; it is the post 17th century propagation of heretical eisegesis that is not from G-d.

Edited to add:

The Bible does actually teach that you are saved before you have done any 'works' necessary for salvation

Are you saved, or are you justified?

Justification and Sanctification are not one-in-the-same.

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Doesn't the Bible say, "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." Ephesians 2:8-9?

The true meaning of this scripture is that "we are all saved through faith in Christ and not by our own hand as we cannot save ourselves".....it is a gift from God....and no "man" can save himself or should boast that he can. It does not mean we should not follow the command of God to serve our neighbor and do good "works" upon the earth and to make sacred covenants with Him through the ordinances of the Gospel.

- So you agree then that our actions don't save us, faith in Christ, which is a gift from God, saves us?

Also: "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. " John 3:16-18

And where pray tell does President Kimball say this scripture is untrue? Yes it's true...through faith in Jesus Chist and the saving Ordinances of the Gospel (works) one can have eternal life.

- The scripture makes no reference to the saving ordinances of the gospel, only belief.

I can quote scripture all day long showing the value of "works" in justifying faith in regards to being saved...

James 2:14-24

14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,

16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

- This scripture is a fantastic example of how Christians are told to prove their claim of faith by their actions. How can one claim to have faith in God, yet not show love his neighbour? Loving actions and works are the outward sign of an inward reality: a changed nature brought about by God's grace. Our works are how we back up our claims, yet the Bible clearly states that we were saved whilst dead in sin, not once we'd done some works to earn salvation. James is teaching that we can justify our claims to others through demonstrating a changed nature by good deeds. The good deeds are therefore a result of being saved and not the cause.

And now a question for you: Why is it so hard for you to believe that the Lord leads and guides His church in these days? And that further light and knowledge of the Gospel has been given to man in these latter days?? You actually think God has stopped guiding his children as he did in the past? You don't suppose He restored the Gospel to the Earth in it's fullest because precious parts of it were lost and some simple truths were twisted by man? Could it be you deny the truth because you haven't really searched for it? You take the word of some preacher or some anti-Mormon literature? Try reading the Book of Mormon and the Doctrine and Covenants with and open heart and mind....then go to the source and humble yourself and ask God whether these things are not true.....or are you too afraid to? Gonna listen to your Minister/Preacher/Priest or your Father in Heaven? You will never know the truth until you sincerely search for it and then ask God to make manifest the truth to you. Don't trust some preacher who's hellbent on keeping you in his congregation...remember he needs your offerings for his living.

I'd be quite happy to answer these questions on a new thread, but this thread is on a different topic so I'd prefer to keep this one on track. Thanks :)

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Rather than blast you personally like everyone else, I'll simply answer your question that if you believe that all you have to do is accept Jesus Christ as your Savior, and that you have no further responsibility to keep the commandments(which was Spencer W. Kimball's point), then you do not believe the Bible...

- Thanks for actually engaging with the question :-) The Bible does actually teach that you are saved before you have done any 'works' necessary for salvation: "And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it" Colossians 2:13-15 and also: "But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus." Ephesians 2:4-7 These two quotations make it clear that Christ saves, determines the Eternal destiny of believers while they are yet 'dead in sins'. It was Jesus who did this, not those who were dead in sins.

You cannot understand the role of Grace and Works by quoting a few scriptures from the Apostle Paul in which he is reprimanding Christians for not accepting grace and believing they still had to keep THE LAW OF MOSES(which was an entirely new concept they had innitially accepted, but that Paul had to reinforce).

- Paul does teach that the law of Moses has been fulfilled in Christ. It was fulfilled because Jesus kept the Law and as such was the only sacrifice 'without blemish' that would be acceptable as a propitiation for our sins. Thus Paul was teaching that we can only be saved by putting our total trust and faith in Him and His acceptable sacrifice.

I believe Jesus on this subject:

"Greater love hath no man than this, that a man should lay down his life for his friends. Ye are my friends if ye do whatsoever I command you."

Jesus did indeed teach them this, but there are numerous examples of where Jesus taught that people's faith had saved them, not actions. People will then recognise these people as his disciples by their actions, as is taught in Hebrews, and James.

Kinda sounds like in order to make the sacrifice of our Lord effective in our lives we not only need to BELIEVE but we also need to keep his commands...It is a covenant relationship in which his Grace satisfies the demands of Gods Justice for violation of eternal law...Our part in that covenant is to do our best (not just believe alone) and when we fall short, we repent.

- I don't see the Bible teaching that we must do our best in order to be saved. It repeatedly talks about salvation through faith and not works.

That is what Kimball (Have you even read his book from which you so liberally quote, or did you just copy someone elses quote from his book? I have read his book and am currently reading it again right now.)was saying, and it is absolutely what Jesus and the Bible (in countless places) teaches.

- I would like to see one or two places where Jesus teaches that we must do our best in order to be saved.

The New Testament teaches the covenant relationship and you need to take all scriptures on the subject into account, including their context...It is an absolute lie of the devil that ALL we have to do is accept Jesus and we are saved.

- Please show me then from the Bible that we are saved through a covenant relationship in which we must try our best and have repented of all outstanding sins.

On my mission in Texas, I encountered a man (happened to be Southern Baptist) who said he could murder me and my companion, and then shoot himself and he would still go to heaven because he was saved by Grace...He even held up his Bible and said he did not even need this anymore, and threw it across the yard...Granted he was a bit extreme and animated, but is that the camp your in? Do you believe you can you do whatever you want now that your "saved" and still go to heaven? I hope not.

- When we are saved, we are called to produce works to demonstrate our faith. As pointed out in James, and also here: "Furthermore then we beseech you, brethren, and exhort you by the Lord Jesus, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please God, so ye would abound more and more." 1 Thessalonians 4:1. God promises to save those who believe (see John 3) and he does not go back on His promises. 2 Thessalonians 2:16-17 sums this up fantastically: "Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace, Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work." Firstly it confirms that we have everlasting consolation and good hope through grace. If Jesus' promises could be perpetually revoked then reinstated as He seemed fit we could not have such consolation and hope. Secondly, the writer (Paul) asks God to 'stablish in you every good word and work'. He is thus acknowledging both the importance of doing good work, and also that this comes from God Himself, it is not ours to boast about. My point is that God can forgive all sin, and will keep his promises, and also that we are expected to present works that demonstrate that we have been saved. Therefore you could question the heart of someone claiming that it is of no importance whether or not he kills someone. That would not be a reflection of the love God had shown that individual through saving him.

-Don't forget that "neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord." Romans 8:38-39

Yep, that's pretty much what I thought you would say...I can see why most people on the forum responded with some laziness...and a touch of hostility...I have had this argument so many times and have quoted scripture exhaustibly in the process...have no interest in doing it again for someone who is already decided on the subject...I could comment on several points, but again, since you have decided the issue, and so have I, there really is no need...If your purpose in asking the question was to come to some understanding of what Mormons believe then I suggest you read all of President Kimball's book, not just two paragraphs... but you seem more interested in debating an issue on which you have already decided...If I had my scriptures handy I could furnish you with a list of scriptures demonstrating that Grace is not all you need for salvation (from the Bible), but again, you have decided where you stand so I don't feel like beating a dead horse...Mormons are well aquainted with biblical teachings on the subject, so I wouldn't knock yourself out trying to convince us that we don't need to keep the commandments of our Lord. We do. Period. When we don't, we are to repent. Period. Jesus himself is very clear on that subject so I suggest you read the Gospels again and see what he says about repentence and keeping the commandments and stop listening to your preachers interpretation, or ignoring the scriptures that say you need to keep the commandments. Mormons certainly are not going to go to hell for accepting Christs sacrifice for our sins, repenting throughout our lives, and striving to keep his commandments...

You said:

- Paul does teach that the law of Moses has been fulfilled in Christ. It was fulfilled because Jesus kept the Law and as such was the only sacrifice 'without blemish' that would be acceptable as a propitiation for our sins. Thus Paul was teaching that we can only be saved by putting our total trust and faith in Him and His acceptable sacrifice.

This is the point I was making with one exception...Christ fulfilled the Law of Moses and relieved mens responsibilty of keeping the law of "ordinances and performances" such as sacrificing animals to atone for ones sins, etc...but that does not mean he absolved us of our responsibilities in repenting of our sins...i.e. asking for forgiveness etc... The sacrifice has now been made for us by Christ. He fulfilled the law of sacrifice by the shedding of his perfect blood...He shed his blood for me and you, for every sin we have and will commit and his grace is freely given but we have to accept it...we accept it by acknowledging our faults before God and repenting of them. That is not something we do once...we do it throughout our lives, and is part of what is meant by "abiding in him".

You said nothing to answer whether or not the guy who said he could murder us and still go to heaven is actually right or wrong...you do what most people in your camp do which is say maybe he really was not saved to begin with since noone who is saved would ever do such a thing...So is it not possible in your mind to fall from grace? Can't an honest true converted Christian, through a series of bad choices, seperate himself from God's grace by commiting such a heinous crime of UNREPENTED murder? In your mind, does he not have to go before God and confess his crimes in order to be forgiven and allow Christ's blood to wash the sin away? Or can he simply say, "Wow, I really screwed up here, good thing I got saved and followed Jesus all those years cuz now I'm a murderer. At least I'm saved in the kingdom." Is there no way to sink yourself to hell once you have been saved? No crime, no vicious act?

Since I do not have my scriptures with me, I pilfered this one from a post above...hahah

James 2:14-24

14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,

16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

Remember he was speaking to converted and baptized Christians in these versus here...He refers to their fellow Christians as "brothers and sisters"...a common term used in the early Christian church....So if your faith is dead because you do not work, what does "dead" mean? A new kind of living? The faith necessary to save him has died because he refused to work...that is the relationship here...

Look at the parable of the sheep and the goats taught by our Lord...Who are the goats? They believed in the Lord and refered to him in that way and yet they are the ones who did not visit those in prison, clothe the naked, feed the hungry, administer to the sick etc...in other words those who did not work! What is the fate of those who call him Lord (in this story), who knew him and yet did not see HIM in their fellow man...They were sorted to the left hand of God and cast out! Those who were the sheep(those who did labor and served Jesus by serving their fellow man) in this story were sorted to the right hand of God to sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob on the right hand of God...There are other parables taught by our Lord and direct statements regarding these priciples in The Gospels as well as the writings of Paul, but you won't see them, because you have been taught this concept of justification by faith ALONE, and your reading the Bible with those "goggles" on so to speak. You have a belief which you are then searching out in the scriptures in order to find justification for that belief...of course you will probably accuse me of the same...:)

Interest leads reason after-all...

For an excellent book on the Mormon understanding of Grace read Stephen E. Robinsons book entitled: Believing Christ http://www.deseretbooks.com/store/search?s...elieving+christ

In it, he points out that a lot of the disagreement is about the how vocabulary used by both sides of the argument is often misunderstood and there is much we can agree on...you might find you like the book and may decide perhaps Mormons are not as far off as you think...if your not interested in reading it, that's fine, but your wasting your time if you think your going to convince us to believe what we see as counter to the word of God...all of it...not just the tidbits you use to support an INCOMPLETE belief.

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So was Kimball saying that these biblical teachings were originated by Satan and are not God's word?

Sheeze - if you are going to be a troll - at least try and be clever, or subtle, or intelligent or something.

Since you're guilty of making making a dufus post, here's your assignment: Post 10 biblical scriptures that say that salvation does not come about purely as matter of grace through faith alone.

I'd like to echo Snow here and say this should be easy to do since there are a lot more than ten... :ahhh: Shocking, I know...:)

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"So was Kimball saying that these biblical teachings were originated by Satan and are not God's word?"

Satan’s origination is not the Biblical teachings; it is the post 17th century propagation of heretical eisegesis that is not from G-d.

Thank you Doc! This is well said...excellent point!

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Thanks for your response Isaac, it is much appreciated. I'd like to pick up on just a few points in order to keep this thread relatively manageable in size. Please don't take it as me being disrespectful. :)

"Mormons are well aquainted with biblical teachings on the subject, so I wouldn't knock yourself out trying to convince us that we don't need to keep the commandments of our Lord. We do. Period. When we don't, we are to repent. Period. Jesus himself is very clear on that subject so I suggest you read the Gospels again and see what he says about repentence and keeping the commandments and stop listening to your preachers interpretation, or ignoring the scriptures that say you need to keep the commandments. "

I don't feel obliged to agree 100% with anyone preaching in my church, it is God and His word I've accepted, not that of any preacher. The Bible certainly does say we must repent and keep the commandments, of course, and I agree entirely. Yet if God has promised us eternal life, he does not change his mind (this is also in the Bible). God does not break his promises. Eternal means eternal, there aren't exceptions to this mentioned in the Bible.

"Mormons certainly are not going to go to hell for accepting Christs sacrifice for our sins, repenting throughout our lives, and striving to keep his commandments..."

Are we talking about the same Jesus here? I'm not sure we are if you go by all the LDS leaders have taught on the subject, and therefore I'm not sure I can agree with you on this.

"This is the point I was making with one exception...Christ fulfilled the Law of Moses and relieved mens responsibilty of keeping the law of "ordinances and performances" such as sacrificing animals to atone for ones sins, etc...but that does not mean he absolved us of our responsibilities in repenting of our sins...i.e. asking for forgiveness etc... The sacrifice has now been made for us by Christ. He fulfilled the law of sacrifice by the shedding of his perfect blood...He shed his blood for me and you, for every sin we have and will commit and his grace is freely given but we have to accept it...we accept it by acknowledging our faults before God and repenting of them. That is not something we do once...we do it throughout our lives, and is part of what is meant by "abiding in him"."

Hmm. The way I would explain it is that, when we turn to Christ and believe, we are accepted by Christ, he saves us there and then and we are adopted into His family. (see Ephesians 1) We become heirs to His glory "For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. " (from Romans 8) It is a perfectly normal thing for a loving God to share His glory with those He has brought into His family.

"You said nothing to answer whether or not the guy who said he could murder us and still go to heaven is actually right or wrong...you do what most people in your camp do which is say maybe he really was not saved to begin with since noone who is saved would ever do such a thing..."

They quite rightly say maybe since they are not the one to decide on the condition of another's faith. God knows those whom He has chosen, how could I possibly know, or be in a position to judge? What must a Mormon do to be saved? Can Mormons tell whether or not they are saved?

"So is it not possible in your mind to fall from grace?"

No, if God says in the Bible "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." Then that means Eternal. Jesus died once for all " now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. " Hebrews 9 You either accept that sacrifice or you don't. Repentance is still of the utmost importance (see below), however you need only ACCEPT the free gift of salvation through Christ's eternal sacrifice once. You don't need to 're-accept' it over and over again.

"Can't an honest true converted Christian, through a series of bad choices, seperate himself from God's grace by commiting such a heinous crime of UNREPENTED murder?"

He or she could separate themselves from God's presence or fellowship or guidance, which is hardly surprising because how else would they bring themselves to do such a thing in the first place?! However, Jesus promises not to forsake those he has chosen. He keeps His promises and I trust Him to do that, even though the individual in question would CERTAINLY need to do some repenting in order to regain fellowship with God and to re-enter communion with the Holy Spirit.

"In your mind, does he not have to go before God and confess his crimes in order to be forgiven and allow Christ's blood to wash the sin away? "

If this person has already accpeted Jesus as his Lord and Saviour, then his sins were washed away then and there. The washing doesn't happen over and over again, otherwise Eternal life keeps stopping and starting between 'repentances'. That would be making salvation dependent on our act of repentance, not on God's act of love and the promise He made when he gave the gift of Eternal salvation. It would be like saying God is BOUND to save me, again, because I have repented, again. This would imply we have control over our salvation, but we don't, God does, and He made it simple: "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. " God gives us our faith and our salvation, it is His gift. We have nothing without God's granting it. The theoretical person in question must repent if he or she desires to re-build his relationship with His Lord, and if he or she were once in such a relationship I am sure at some point that such a desire would be there, since their rememberance of such a wonderful experience, and their remorse, would surely prompt them to repentance.

"Or can he simply say, "Wow, I really screwed up here, good thing I got saved and followed Jesus all those years cuz now I'm a murderer. At least I'm saved in the kingdom." Is there no way to sink yourself to hell once you have been saved? No crime, no vicious act? "

Let me turn this on its head. God says you believe me, accept me as Lord, turn to me and renounce sin and I promise that you will be mine eternally, in my family. But then, upon certain conditions that were never in the original promise He says, er, actually I no longer want you in my family, you will never be with me again. That doesn't sound to me either like a God who keeps His promises, or like a truly loving Father in Heaven. If parents on earth can keep themselves from permanently disowning children who commit serious sins, how much more is God able to continue to love and keep those he has chosen in His family!

"Since I do not have my scriptures with me, I pilfered this one from a post above...hahah

James 2:14-24

14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,

16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

Remember he was speaking to converted and baptized Christians in these versus here...He refers to their fellow Christians as "brothers and sisters"...a common term used in the early Christian church....So if your faith is dead because you do not work, what does "dead" mean? A new kind of living? The faith necessary to save him has died because he refused to work...that is the relationship here..."

The point being made here is that one who claims to have faith but can not prove it, does not truly have faith. Loving your neighbour is an outward manifestation of the inner reality of faith. It is this inner faith in the sacrifice of Jesus that saves, not the actions. The actions of faith are the fruits of it. If I have faith but can't prove it by acting faithfully, you could quite rightly call me a liar.

"Look at the parable of the sheep and the goats taught by our Lord...Who are the goats? They believed in the Lord and refered to him in that way and yet they are the ones who did not visit those in prison, clothe the naked, feed the hungry, administer to the sick etc...in other words those who did not work! What is the fate of those who call him Lord (in this story), who knew him and yet did not see HIM in their fellow man...They were sorted to the left hand of God and cast out! "

Did these people have faith? Apparently not since there was nothing there that could prove it! If they had had faith, acts of love would have followed. John 13:35 - "By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another"

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Are we talking about the same Jesus here? I'm not sure we are if you go by all the LDS leaders have taught on the subject, and therefore I'm not sure I can agree with you on this.

As opposed to what? The nebulous self-contradictory cloud of Greek philosophy that post 4th Century "Christians" have taught on the subject? (See, I can engage in worthless [and baseless] polemics too.)

This "different Jesus" crap is just that... crap. It is an intellectually dishonest polemic. Quantitatively, the "LDS Jesus" and the "Jesus of the Bible" are ONE IN THE SAME. The "Catholic Jesus" is the same Jesus as the "Lutheran Jesus" and the "Evangelical Jesus" and the "LDS Jesus." Qualitative differences do not equate to quantitative differences; no matter how much one wishes to misconstrue, quote-mine, or wrestle scripture.

You ask "Please don't take it as me being disrespectful," and then go on to try to copyright Christ. IMO, that is quite disrespectful. It is akin to the xenophobes I deal with on anti-Mormon sites that refer to "the LDS god."

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Are we talking about the same Jesus here? I'm not sure we are if you go by all the LDS leaders have taught on the subject, and therefore I'm not sure I can agree with you on this.

As opposed to what? The nebulous self-contradictory cloud of Greek philosophy that post 4th Century "Christians" have taught on the subject? (See, I can engage in worthless [and baseless] polemics too.)

This "different Jesus" crap is just that... crap. It is an intellectually dishonest polemic. Quantitatively, the "LDS Jesus" and the "Jesus of the Bible" are ONE IN THE SAME. The "Catholic Jesus" is the same Jesus as the "Lutheran Jesus" and the "Evangelical Jesus" and the "LDS Jesus." Qualitative differences do not equate to quantitative differences; no matter how much one wishes to misconstrue, quote-mine, or wrestle scripture.

You ask "Please don't take it as me being disrespectful," and then go on to try to copyright Christ. IMO, that is quite disrespectful. It is akin to the xenophobes I deal with on anti-Mormon sites that refer to "the LDS god."

OK, let's see the Book of Mormon then: "And behold, he shall be born of Mary, at Jerusalem" Alma 7:10. The Jesus I worship wasn't born in Jerusalem, He was born in Bethlehem. (Matthew 2:1 "Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem...")

One person cannot be born in two places, so it is quite clear that there must be two different "Jesuses".

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OK, let's see the Book of Mormon then: "And behold, he shall be born of Mary, at Jerusalem" Alma 7:10. The Jesus I worship wasn't born in Jerusalem, He was born in Bethlehem. (Matthew 2:1 "Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem...")

One person cannot be born in two places, so it is quite clear that there must be two different "Jesuses".

Has someone been reading John Ankerberg's and John Weldon's Everything You Ever Wanted to Know about Mormonism? It's amazing how much this tripe gets passed around. What's even more amazing is as early as 1838 Parley P. Pratt already had a sound response to this idiocy, yet somehow it still pops up all this time later:

"This you say, is a contradiction of his being born in Bethlehem, (a little place, six miles from Jerusalem,) but mark the local difference in the places where each was spoken. One prophet stands in the vicinity where the thing was fulfilled, and points out the exact location, (Bethlehem.) The other stands on the other side of the globe, from Jerusalem, and addresses a people who knew but little concerning the localities of the various towns and villages of Judea. The prophet speaks in general terms concerning a thing which should transpire in the land of Jerusalem, as they had a general idea of the great capitol city and country, from whence they sprang, rather than a distinct idea of all its villages. This is in perfect accordance with all the circumstances under which they wrote, and a great proof in favour of the Book of Mormon; because an imposter, in forging a book, would have said Bethlehem; for every school boy knows, that Bethlehem is the place where the Lord was born."

(Pratt, Mormonism Unveiled . . . Sutherland Exposed . . . . [1838], 19.)

Perhaps in your reading of the Book of Mormon (I'd hate to think you skimmed this from anti-Mormon propaganda instead of reading the actual book), you came across 1 Nephi 1:4, 7 and then compared it to Nephi 3:16, 23–24. You might have noticed that although Lehi dwelt "at Jerusalem," he evidently was outside of the city proper.

And what should we make of the fact that around 597 BCE (when the BoM narrative begins) that Jerusalem was more-or-less a city-state? The Babylonians had completely conquered the former kingdom of Judah at this point, and Zedekiah had already been put on the throne as the little Babylonian puppet that he was (see 1 Nephi 1:4 for the establishment that the narrative is after Zedekiah's placement). Although it was still technically called the "kingdom of Judah," the area that Zedekiah was given control over was pretty much reduced to the area directly surrounding Jerusalem (which would not be a far stretch to be known as "the land of Jerusalem" -- and which would most likely contain the town of Bethlehem).

BTW, "Pseudo-Jeremiah" (4Q385) from the Dead Sea Scrolls speaks of Jews being "taken captive from the land of Jerusalem." This is attributed to Jeremiah, the prophet and contemporary of Lehi. What should we make of this?

Please don’t let any of this stop you though. You are more than welcome to keep banging your head against the monolith of Mormonism and keep reading your anti-Mormon propaganda instead of studying your own religion. I’ve never understood why your ilk has this latent need to try to dismantle another religion; especially since if the same methods were applied to your own religion, it would crumble under your hypocrisy and double standards.

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<div class='quotemain'>

Are we talking about the same Jesus here? I'm not sure we are if you go by all the LDS leaders have taught on the subject, and therefore I'm not sure I can agree with you on this.

As opposed to what? The nebulous self-contradictory cloud of Greek philosophy that post 4th Century "Christians" have taught on the subject? (See, I can engage in worthless [and baseless] polemics too.)

This "different Jesus" crap is just that... crap. It is an intellectually dishonest polemic. Quantitatively, the "LDS Jesus" and the "Jesus of the Bible" are ONE IN THE SAME. The "Catholic Jesus" is the same Jesus as the "Lutheran Jesus" and the "Evangelical Jesus" and the "LDS Jesus." Qualitative differences do not equate to quantitative differences; no matter how much one wishes to misconstrue, quote-mine, or wrestle scripture.

You ask "Please don't take it as me being disrespectful," and then go on to try to copyright Christ. IMO, that is quite disrespectful. It is akin to the xenophobes I deal with on anti-Mormon sites that refer to "the LDS god."

OK, let's see the Book of Mormon then: "And behold, he shall be born of Mary, at Jerusalem" Alma 7:10. The Jesus I worship wasn't born in Jerusalem, He was born in Bethlehem. (Matthew 2:1 "Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem...")

One person cannot be born in two places, so it is quite clear that there must be two different "Jesuses".

HAHAHA...Oh wow, you do have an anti-mormon book on your lap don't you, or did you manage to pick that up in your careful reading of The Book of Mormon? Be honest! Why don't you just tell us which one your reading so we can consult our own copies here and answer whatever assertions are being made? This supposed contradiction has been answered over and over and over and over and over...different Jesus???? In short, the word "at" means "in, on, or nearby" . Bethlehem is Nearby Jerusalem...blah blah blah...I don't even have the energy to answer this further...it is a common usage like saying I lived in L.A. but actually resided in Glendale...This is tiring...The Jesus we believe in is the same as yours...He is the one that I love, whose life and teachings I read about in The Bible and other scripture...I do not subscribe to creeds written hundreds of years after his death designed to describe his nature etc...eluded to in the previous post...He is Gods son...He prayed to his Father, just like I do in his name...He died for me...I am sorry that you believe I trust in a different Jesus...

You wondered if I am aware of my leaders teachings on the subject and the answer is yes...I am also well aware of what anti-mormon writers say about our belief in a different Jesus...I am well aquainted with the arguments and quotations they use to formulate said arguments...and typically they do not attack our actual beliefs or the actual statements of church leaders, but their impression, or interpretation of what we believe and preach which is an entirely different thing...I was a missionary in DALLAS TEXAS...I could not tract a single block without hearing some negative thing about my beliefs or church...as a result I studied the arguments carefully and gained an appreciation for the Bible, perhaps more so than someone who did not experience the same opposition...I love the Bible, and I love Jesus...a lot! Scriptures by their very nature are subject to various interpretations as you well know...my point is that I have scriptural justification for my beliefs just like you do...based on interpretation...Please do not tell me the Bible is self explanitory and needs no interpretation ...If that were true, there would not be thousands of commentaries telling us what the Bible is trying to say...and the people who study it the most, would agree most closely on what it is trying to tell us...the opposite is true...There are as many interpretations of the Bible as there are readers...some will agree on various points and some will not, but please do not say you are immune to the opinions of commentators or a pastor in formulating your beliefs about what the Bible is trying to tell you...To call into question a persons personal belief in the "correct" Jesus or to say Mormons are not Christian (like the anti-mormon literature you are reading says)simply because you understand him differently is not productive...I believe in Jesus of Nazareth, carpenters son, (or one might say step son...:)). That he died for my sins is a fact that I have accepted...we disagree on some finer details, but I believe in the same Jesus...stop asserting that I believe in someone other than the Jesus whose life we read about in The Gospels...I could argue that you believe in a different Jesus than that which is taught in the Bible since your interpretation is governed by creeds written after the New Testament, but I won't since I know that you also believe in the Jesus of the New Testament.

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Issac, Dr. Stuess.....this thread is getting ridiculous....Dibster is just here to spew anti-Mormon garbage....we can see it in the replies. Dibster does not want to understand LDS doctrine in the least. Dibster wants to try and convince us LDS doctrine is wrong and we are going to hell if we continue to believe it...but Dibster loves us! And Dibster believes Dibster is doing the Lords work by harassing us. What Dibster fails to recognize is the LDS doctrine is not just based on the Bible. Dibster does not believe we have modern revelation and a living Prophet of God to guide us. Dibster is just ignorant to the fact that the Saints have accepted a marvelous gift from God....all the plain and simple truths and the Lord's priesthood restored to the Earth. We as LDS must love Dibster and try and show Dibster the truth....lets stop arguing Biblical scripture with Dibster.....lets quote the Book of Mormon, D & C, Pearl of G.P. AS well as the Bible and Dibster will see how the Lord has given us the correct knowledge which was lost or corrupted when the Bible was put together. Dibster.....God bless your heart for trying to offer the Saints here on this board your little piece of spiritual pie, but no thank you....we have the whole bakery!
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