estradling75 Posted December 15, 2016 Report Share Posted December 15, 2016 (edited) 10 minutes ago, MormonGator said: But it isn't. When you go out for a nice steak dinner you are also feeding the waiter. The host. The chef. The manger of the place. The owner. The valet. The bartender (even if you only drink coke and virgin drinks). So in a way, you actually are feeding the sheep. When was the last time you got a nice steak dinner simply because you wanted to keep a company in business? If you are like most people.. the answer is never. the last time you get a nice steak dinner was because you were hungry and you wanted/could afford a nice stake dinner. After all if you wanted to keep a company in business you could simply donate cash. It is the same kind of mindset of "Well I pay taxes so the government should feed the sheep" it just downgrades a step "Well I bought a stake (or expensive doodad) so that business will feed the sheep" That is not what Christ taught when it comes to feeding his sheep Edited December 15, 2016 by estradling75 SilentOne 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anatess2 Posted December 15, 2016 Report Share Posted December 15, 2016 10 minutes ago, estradling75 said: No... feeding the sheep is a valid contribution to feeding the sheep... Buying an expensive dodad... it is not feeding the sheep, it is is buying an expensive dodad. (it might be wise to buy an expensive dodad I am not arguing that) but trying to justify buying an expensive dodad as "feeding the sheep" is self delusional. To you. Not to me who knows my intent for buying an expensive doodad. See my post immediately preceding... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
estradling75 Posted December 15, 2016 Report Share Posted December 15, 2016 1 minute ago, anatess2 said: To you. Not to me who knows my intent for buying an expensive doodad. See my post immediately preceding... Really then don't buy the expensive doodad... just give them your money... otherwise your intent is deceptive Vort, SilentOne and mordorbund 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MormonGator Posted December 15, 2016 Report Share Posted December 15, 2016 Just now, estradling75 said: When was the last time you got a nice steak dinner simply because you wanted to keep a company in business? If you are like most people.. the answer is never. That's exactly the point. Why we need capitalism is because it takes negatives and turns it into positives. It's not because I like the chef or waiter-it's because I like myself and enjoying time with my friends. Guess what-it's the same with the waiter. He doesn't care about me , or you either. The truck driver who delivered the steak doesn't care about @estradling75. He cares about himself. The blunt truth is that nothing would get done if it all depended on love and kindness.Just because YOU are loving and sweet doesn't mean everyone is. Man is motivated by self interest and capitalism rewards mutually beneficial activities. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anatess2 Posted December 15, 2016 Report Share Posted December 15, 2016 (edited) 9 minutes ago, estradling75 said: Really then don't buy the expensive doodad... just give them your money... otherwise your intent is deceptive No reason to pass up on a gold-plated toothpick. I love gold-plated toothpicks. This is the thing I'm trying to impress. People get so stuck on the STUFF. It's just STUFF. The meaning of the STUFF is different for different people. Some people look at my gold-plated plated toothpick and see greed and avarice. I look at my gold-plated toothpick and see the character of the guy I bought the toothpick from and the story behind the toothpick... and rub my hands at the opportunity to show it off to people who will then ask... what's the story behind this toothpick? But... without the story, it's JUST A $500-worth toothpick. So, here's the question... What are you judging when you judged me deceptive? That, I believe, is where you can skid right into unrighteous judgment. Edited December 15, 2016 by anatess2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
estradling75 Posted December 15, 2016 Report Share Posted December 15, 2016 1 minute ago, MormonGator said: That's exactly the point. Why we need capitalism is because it takes negatives and turns it into positives. It's not because I like the chef or waiter-it's because I like myself and enjoying time with my friends. Guess what-it's the same with the waiter. He doesn't care about me , or you either. The truck driver who delivered the steak doesn't care about @estradling75. He cares about himself. The blunt truth is that nothing would get done if it all depended on love and kindness.Just because YOU are loving and sweet doesn't mean everyone is. Man is motivated by self interest and capitalism rewards mutually beneficial activities. Indeed that is way I said Capitalism is likely the best we can get in a fallen world... But the commands of Christ aren't about living in a fallen world its about becoming a person that can live in a Celestial world, and that requires more of us. mordorbund 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
estradling75 Posted December 15, 2016 Report Share Posted December 15, 2016 2 minutes ago, anatess2 said: No reason to pass up on a gold-plated toothpick. I love gold-plated toothpicks. Thus your intent is shown. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vort Posted December 15, 2016 Report Share Posted December 15, 2016 31 minutes ago, MormonGator said: It actually is, because it doesn't require force, which makes it virtuous because you are then free. Prostitution also does not require force. You are free to participate in it or not. That does not make it moral. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MormonGator Posted December 15, 2016 Report Share Posted December 15, 2016 1 minute ago, Vort said: Prostitution also does not require force. You are free to participate in it or not. That does not make it moral. http://fusion.net/story/107578/crisis-pushes-venezuelan-women-to-sell-sex-in-colombia/ Ironic you bring that up. Look what good ole' socialism does sometimes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anatess2 Posted December 15, 2016 Report Share Posted December 15, 2016 5 minutes ago, estradling75 said: Thus your intent is shown. I edited my post to clarify. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anatess2 Posted December 15, 2016 Report Share Posted December 15, 2016 Greed is a grievous sin. But so is envy... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vort Posted December 15, 2016 Report Share Posted December 15, 2016 5 minutes ago, MormonGator said: http://fusion.net/story/107578/crisis-pushes-venezuelan-women-to-sell-sex-in-colombia/ Ironic you bring that up. Look what good ole' socialism does sometimes. Not sure what your point is, MG. I daresay I despise socialism as much as you do. My point was very straightforward: The fact that capitalism allows you freedom to participate in it or not, as you choose, does not make it virtuous, any more than that fact makes prostitution virtuous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vort Posted December 15, 2016 Report Share Posted December 15, 2016 5 minutes ago, anatess2 said: Greed is a grievous sin. But so is envy... Who in this thread is exhibiting envy? If no one, why do you bring it up? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MormonGator Posted December 15, 2016 Report Share Posted December 15, 2016 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Vort said: Not sure what your point is, MG. I daresay I despise socialism as much as you do. My point was very straightforward: The fact that capitalism allows you freedom to participate in it or not, as you choose, does not make it virtuous, any more than that fact makes prostitution virtuous. It makes it virtuous because you have the power over yourself. Freedom. The article was fascinating because it showed in part how socialism has forced women into selling their bodies. Anti-Capitalism is based on envy, which is also sinful even though it's one of those sins that is sort of okay in our society because it's cool to hate the rich. Isn't one of the ten commandments you shall not covet your neighbors goods? Edited December 15, 2016 by MormonGator Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
estradling75 Posted December 15, 2016 Report Share Posted December 15, 2016 11 minutes ago, anatess2 said: So, here's the question... What are you judging when you judged me deceptive? That, I believe, is where you can skid right into unrighteous judgment. The same way you get to 2 minutes ago, anatess2 said: Greed is a grievous sin. But so is envy... But hey I am sure you didn't say that you unrighteously judged me to be envious any more then I unrighteously judged you to be deceptive... But rather judging the idea that MormonGator so clearly stated 17 minutes ago, MormonGator said: He cares about himself. <Snip> Man is motivated by self interest and capitalism rewards mutually beneficial activities. Self interest is the motivation and intent behind capitalism and Christ teaches selflessness. To engage in capitalism is to engage self interest... and we should not deceive ourselves into thinking our words can fundamentally change that by saying our intent is otherwise Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MormonGator Posted December 15, 2016 Report Share Posted December 15, 2016 (edited) 1 minute ago, estradling75 said: Self interest is the motivation and intent behind capitalism and Christ teaches selflessness. To engage in capitalism is to engage self interest... and we should not deceive ourselves into thinking our words can fundamentally change that by saying our intent is otherwise Can you pay for my groceries for a year? Just out of compassion and selflessness? Edited December 15, 2016 by MormonGator Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vort Posted December 15, 2016 Report Share Posted December 15, 2016 5 minutes ago, MormonGator said: It makes it virtuous because you have the power over yourself. Freedom. Then you agree that voluntary prostitution is virtuous? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MormonGator Posted December 15, 2016 Report Share Posted December 15, 2016 2 minutes ago, Vort said: Then you agree that voluntary prostitution is virtuous? I agree that in a free society (a truly free society) what two consenting adults do in private is their own affair. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
estradling75 Posted December 15, 2016 Report Share Posted December 15, 2016 2 minutes ago, MormonGator said: Can you pay for my groceries for a year? Just out of compassion and selflessness? I could but I will not... But then I fully recognize that I am selfish... and I have work to do... I also fully realize that if I were to employ you.. and thus paying for your groceries (according to the logic presented) I would not be doing it for selfless and compassionate reasons... I would be doing it for selfish reasons in that I fully expect to get an equal if not greater value back from your labor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vort Posted December 15, 2016 Report Share Posted December 15, 2016 5 minutes ago, MormonGator said: I agree that in a free society (a truly free society) what two consenting adults do in private is their own affair. Yes, but that is not the question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MormonGator Posted December 15, 2016 Report Share Posted December 15, 2016 (edited) 7 minutes ago, estradling75 said: I could but I will not... But then I fully recognize that I am selfish... and I have work to do... I also fully realize that if I were to employ you.. and thus paying for your groceries (according to the logic presented) I would not be doing it for selfless and compassionate reasons... I would be doing it for selfish reasons in that I fully expect to get an equal if not greater value back from your labor. There you go. And the people who work for you don't do it because they like you. They do it because they like themselves. And because you are a nice guy @estradling75 you realize that you need to work on selfishness. Many people out there don't want to work on it and won't admit it to themselves that they are selfish. That's another problem with compassion though. People pick and choose who they want to be compassionate towards. Edited December 15, 2016 by MormonGator Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
estradling75 Posted December 15, 2016 Report Share Posted December 15, 2016 1 minute ago, MormonGator said: Many people out there don't want to work on it and won't admit it to themselves that they are selfish. That is exactly my point... Buying a gold-tooth-pick or steak dinner or whatever is for you... Twisting yourself up in justifications on how it is "feeding the sheep" is just that... trying to justify it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MormonGator Posted December 15, 2016 Report Share Posted December 15, 2016 Just now, estradling75 said: That is exactly my point... Buying a gold-tooth-pick or steak dinner or whatever is for you... Twisting yourself up in justifications on how it is "feeding the sheep" is just that... trying to justify it. And that's where we just won't agree. Two people who see things fundamentally different. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
estradling75 Posted December 15, 2016 Report Share Posted December 15, 2016 6 minutes ago, MormonGator said: And that's where we just won't agree. Two people who see things fundamentally different. Except it was you who made the claim 14 minutes ago, MormonGator said: Many people out there don't want to work on it and won't admit it to themselves that they are selfish. All I did was point out a very clear example of people not admitting it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anatess2 Posted December 15, 2016 Report Share Posted December 15, 2016 1 hour ago, estradling75 said: All I did was point out a very clear example of people not admitting it If what you mean by people not admitting it is me buying a gold-plated toothpick then this statement is what we would call unrighteous judgment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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