I feel silly doubting a relationship over career prospects, but there it is


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My fiance and I have been engaged for about two months. I know this probably sounds incredibly shallow, but he has recently changed his major in school and wants to go into education rather than the psychology program he was in. He asked me my thoughts about it, and I at first I didn't mind and just wanted to support his dream. However, now that our wedding date is coming closer, I find myself really bothered by his major. I know a number of teachers and they all seem to make it all right even on one income, but it just doesn't seem... righteous. I know this sounds crazy, but it seems every single Mormon mentioned in the media is a great example of success. All the GAs have or had high-income careers. I know we shouldn't crave wealth, but isn't it a sign of righteous living just the same? I feel so shallow with this, especially since we are living as poor students anyway, but I'm not sure I want the quality of life a teacher would provide, even with a masters, after watching friends and family who live that way. 

Should I ask him to change his major back? At the same time, I also don't want him in a career he's bitter about. I just want us in a position to be a good example.

Edited by Katrina
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Well, are you trying to marry a general authority, or marry a worthy priesthood holder that has all the keys your home will need?

Wealth is not a sign of righteous living. It's a sign of a lot of things, but poor people or middle-class people aren't less righteous than "successful" people. In fact, I think a lot is said about wealth and also about humility in the scriptures(not that you can't have both, but it's right there in print that it's not easy).

I think the idea that your husband needs a major NOW that will bring him success ASAP, and that that is important to his spiritual progress, is a fallacy. Are you being honest with yourself? Is it really just that you're disappointed that your life with him won't be as comfortable as you were thinking? (ps... unless he was going to go into psychiatry, you were probably never going to be rich, anyway. A psychology degree is worth the paper it's printed on by itself, and a counseling licensure might put him in a higher bracket than a teacher, but not "high-income").

Anyway, however I feel about your ideas here, I think the greater point is that you two shouldn't be getting married any time soon. Do him a service and get this figured out for yourself before he's tied to your disappointment for the rest of his life. That's about the worst thing you can give the man you love. 

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4 hours ago, Katrina said:

isn't it a sign of righteous living just the same?

No.  Joseph Smith struggled with money most of his life.   I have a friend who is in Pres. Monson's ward, and she showed me his house.  It was just an average home in an average neighborhood---something a teacher's salary could afford.

There might not be that much difference between the income from a psychology degree and the income from an educators degree.  I know a lot of therapists and they live modestly like teachers.  My previous therapist has a PhD.  We met in his home and it is very modest.  

I don't think you should ignore what you are feeling though.  If you were my daughter, I would tell you that if you are thinking of breaking up the engagement over a change of major then perhaps you are more interested in marriage than in this young man.  If my son was engaged to a you, I would counsel him to break it off.

So I agree with the others that you should fast, pray and go to the temple to be sure that this young man is a good match for you, regardless of what his major is or how much money he will make.  That is not the biggest issue here.  I say that as kindly as possible.  

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There are, I think, two questions encompassed by the OP.

1.  Is wealth correlated to righteousness?  I agree with the others here that it is not.  

2.  Do you have a right, as a Latter-day Saint woman, to expect your husband to provide your family with a certain standard of living?  I am probably in the minority here; but I hold that you do.  This doesn't mean you have a right to actual *wealth*; or to be supported *in style*, or that you shouldn't be expected to make sacrifices of your own.  But if you aspire to be a stay-at-home mom; I think your husband has a patriarchal obligation to make that happen for you--if not right away, then within a reasonable time period after the wedding.  I think it's reasonable to sit your fiancé down and say "okay, bub, it's going to cost $60k per year to support me and those six kids you want.  Show me how you're going to make that kind of money with your education degree."

If you *do* want an even higher standard of living--IMHO that's not necessarily bad or shallow.  But whenever you reject a potential marriage partner, you are gambling that you will be able to find another person with all the qualities of the current candidate plus whatever qualities the current guy lacks.  So you always want to be realistic about whether such a knight in shining armor does, in fact, exist.  There's a reason we call him "Mr. Right" and not "Mr. Perfect".

Edited by Just_A_Guy
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7 hours ago, Katrina said:

My fiance and I have been engaged for about two months. I know this probably sounds incredibly shallow, but he has recently changed his major in school and wants to go into education rather than the psychology program he was in. He asked me my thoughts about it, and I at first I didn't mind and just wanted to support his dream. However, now that our wedding date is coming closer, I find myself really bothered by his major. I know a number of teachers and they all seem to make it all right even on one income, but it just doesn't seem... righteous. I know this sounds crazy, but it seems every single Mormon mentioned in the media is a great example of success. All the GAs have or had high-income careers. I know we shouldn't crave wealth, but isn't it a sign of righteous living just the same? I feel so shallow with this, especially since we are living as poor students anyway, but I'm not sure I want the quality of life a teacher would provide, even with a masters, after watching friends and family who live that way. 

Should I ask him to change his major back? At the same time, I also don't want him in a career he's bitter about. I just want us in a position to be a good example.

Yes, you should have a heart to heart talk with your fiance about his choice of major.  

I don't know how others' marriages work, but me and my wife have equal say over every life decision.  For example, I used to be a history major.  I got to a point where I wanted to start over and go into accounting; my wife wanted me to graduate and go into law.  Today, I am a lawyer.

 This brings me to my next point - if you are going to have a say in your husband's career, it is only fair that you accept the consequences.  Becoming a lawyer had both good and bad consequences for my family.  My wife helped me make the decision to do this, and she has owned the consequences of our decision (including some lengthy periods of unemployment at first).  You and your future husband should both have an equal say in all major decisions, from having kids to raising the kids to careers to whether you work to just about anything else.  You should also both equally own the consequences. 

Please know that you are not guaranteed wealth or even success, even if you do everything "right", in this economy.  I have still found, at best, mixed success as an attorney, even after graduating towards the top of a good law school.  The idea that wealth correlates to righteousness is just wrong.  There are millions of righteous saints in South America and Tonga who are living lifestyles worthy of the Celestial Kingdom and do not have running water in their houses or money to buy medicine they need.

So yes, have a talk with your fiance, and know you have a say in his decision, but stand by him and own the consequences of whatever you decide together, and know that there is no such thing as a guarantee anymore that you will end up even in the middle class, no matter how righteous you are.

Edited by DoctorLemon
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7 hours ago, Katrina said:

My fiance and I have been engaged for about two months. I know this probably sounds incredibly shallow, but he has recently changed his major in school and wants to go into education rather than the psychology program he was in. He asked me my thoughts about it, and I at first I didn't mind and just wanted to support his dream. However, now that our wedding date is coming closer, I find myself really bothered by his major. I know a number of teachers and they all seem to make it all right even on one income, but it just doesn't seem... righteous. I know this sounds crazy, but it seems every single Mormon mentioned in the media is a great example of success. All the GAs have or had high-income careers. I know we shouldn't crave wealth, but isn't it a sign of righteous living just the same? I feel so shallow with this, especially since we are living as poor students anyway, but I'm not sure I want the quality of life a teacher would provide, even with a masters, after watching friends and family who live that way. 

Should I ask him to change his major back? At the same time, I also don't want him in a career he's bitter about. I just want us in a position to be a good example.

There is no connection with wealth and righteousness, and no, not all GAs come from big high paying careers.  President Monson has spent most of his working life either in the military or working for Deseret News, neither of which pay mega bucks to people.  His home is a very modest bungalow.   Joseph Smith was often far from well off financially.  And while we are at it, church callings don't mean a thing about somebody's personal righteousness either.  Stop relying on such worldly outward measures and look at him the way God looks on him.  Look at his heart.  Teaching is a noble profession, it should in no way discourage you from sharing a life with him.  If somebody has a natural talent and a passion for a line of work, they will become a success in it whatever it is, but be realistic, these days no matter what career somebody has, being a single income family takes some (well worth it) sacrifices. 

Satan wants to discourage you from doing the right thing, don't play into his hands by getting wrapped up in these shallow concerns.  What good is a husband with a high income who is unfaithful, what good is his worldly success and fame if he isn't worthy to give your sick child a blessing? 

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My current occupation has nothing to do with my degree. It took me 5 years after marriage to settle into the field im in now, another 3 years after that to gain the courage to start my own "side hustle" business in another unrelated field. So now I have two incomes and feeling comfortable as a provider to my family. Wife has been a stay at home mother all these years and will be going back to work next month now that the kids are bigger.

Life is about the journey not about keeping up with the joneses in your ward.

Edited by priesthoodpower
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@Katrina

If you want a husband who can provide a higher income for you and your family, that isn't exactly shallow.  But don't try to claim that it is a religious/scriptural requirement for righteous people to be wealthy.  It isn't.  It's just plain wrong.

Yes, as an LDS wife/mother, you can expect  your husband to be a provider.  But think about this.  I'm a very successful engineer.   And I tend to make much more than most people I know.  This is a far cry from the mac n cheese, ramen, and beans and rice diet type I was as a student. But we still have financial struggles.  We only buy used cars because new ones are just too expensive for us.  We had to buy a pretty old house that is in poor condition because it was all we could afford that could fit our quite large family.  I now spend more money just on food in one month than my entire annual budget as a student.  And the other day we had a visit to the hospital that kept us from making repairs on our car.  So, we've got problems.

Don't think you're going to live in luxury.  The likelihood of that is very low.  If you want your husband to be a provider, you have to be a homemaker.  If you want your husband to be a great provider, you have to be a great homemaker.

That said, I'll make another commentary.  I'm a die-hard home-schooler.  So, the idea that your husband wants to be a teacher in a public school is just a bad idea to me.  And if you lean conservatively on the political spectrum (as many LDS do) then he's going to be in a world of hurt as educators nowadays lean quite liberal.  Many institutions of learning lean liberal a LOT.  He's going to be miserable just from that point alone.  ON THE OTHER HANDwe need more conservative teachers.

Edited by Guest
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As you've seen, teacher pay isn't that bad, particularly if a higher degree is involved. He can always take a seasonal job in the summer.

I agree that it seems there are pockets of Mormonism that emphasize self-reliance to the point of accumulating wealth, but I don't think there is any modern commandment that say we must seek high-income employment.

So, in that regard, I think you're mistaken.

I know several male teachers who support their families just fine. 

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11 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

"okay, bub, it's going to cost $60k per year to support me and those six kids you want.  Show me how you're going to make that kind of money with your education degree."

Speaking as one in the field, get a masters degree and/or pick the right district.

It might take a few years to get to 60 grand, but it's doable in a few years.

One also might aspire to administration, if one wants to deal with that end (never in a million years). My AP is two years younger than me, has a young bride, and ought to be making enough to support a family. Still not glamorous income, but higher than a boring old teacher.

Edited by Backroads
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1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

, the idea that your husband wants to be a teacher in a public school is just a bad idea to me.  And if you lean conservatively on the political spectrum (as many LDS do) then he's going to be in a world of hurt as educators nowadays lean quite liberal.  Many institutions of learning lean liberal a LOT

Yeah... in my experience, the liberal public school system is more myth than reality. And this comes from talking to teachers all over the country. You might get a few notable anecdotes, but from what I see its as mixed a bag as anything.

Besides, going private will almost guarantee poverty. Private school teaching is just above minimum wage, generally speaking. Not that there aren't perks.

Edited by Backroads
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4 minutes ago, Backroads said:

Yeah... in my experience, the liberal public school system is more myth than reality. And this comes from talking to teachers all over the country. You might get a few notable anecdotes, but from what I see its as mixed a bag as anything.

Besides, going private will almost guarantee poverty. Private school teaching is just above minimum wage, generally speaking. Not that there aren't perks.

That's good to know.  I didn't realize that.

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10 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

That's good to know.  I didn't realize that.

Now, I'm rah-rah homeschooling, school choice, slow unschooling in the woods, whatever have you, and I can complain about public schooling with the beat of them.

But it's not all bad.

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4 hours ago, Katrina said:

I know a number of teachers and they all seem to make it all right even on one income, but

Question - were you thinking that you would never need to earn an income, just be supported by your husband?

Whether or not it's a righteous desire, it's not a very realistic or practical plan.  It's good to seek after righteousness.  Here are some things to consider.

https://www.lds.org/manual/the-latter-day-saint-woman-basic-manual-for-women-part-b/duties-and-responsibilities/lesson-18-developing-self-reliance?lang=eng

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2012/04/seek-learning-you-have-a-work-to-do?lang=eng

Quote

In speaking specifically to women, President Thomas S. Monson said: “Often the future is unknown; therefore, it behooves us to prepare for uncertainties. … I urge you to pursue your education and learn marketable skills so that, should such a situation arise, you are prepared to provide."

 

 

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I have a special fondness for Educators.  Both my grandparents were Educators with my grandpa retiring a high school Principal and my grandma a 3rd grade teacher.  They raised NINE children all of whom finished college - 1 lawyer, 1 surgeon, 1 educator, 2 nurses, 1 architect, 3 engineers.  My grandparents paid for their kids' college with the help of work-study programs that the kids got as much as it was possible.  Yes, they lived modestly but comfortably.  All 9 children were taught by my grandparents in addition to public schooling.  Public school is terrible in my country - Philippines - because of the lack of resources.  Both my grandparents worked in the public school system because of their patriotic convictions to help poor kids and orphans (the only kids that go into public school, everyone else goes to parochial schools) and give them a chance to be productive members of society. 

My dad and all his siblings hold education very important.  We visit my grandparents every weekend with the rest of my cousins and we would line up to greet my grandparents and report our latest scholastic achievement.  So we had to do really well in school because if not my grandparents would sit us down and have a tutor session instead of playing with the rest of the cousins.

Both my grandparents have passed away but until today, we still report scholastic achievements even with everyone living all over the planet.  We now use Facebook to report the achievements of the 4th generation to continue my grandparents' legacy.  So my kids work hard in school because we treat it with utmost importance.

Here's a tip:  As long as your husband is righteously pursuing a means to provide for the family, it is not how much your husband makes.  It becomes how YOU spend what your husband makes.

Remember:  Love is that honest and pure desire to bring someone with you closer to Christ who is Joy.  Christ was born on a manger.  Being materially wealthy is of lesser importance than being spiritually wealthy.  Live righteously and your material needs will be met.

Hope this helps.

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There has been alot of good advice, but I would like to offer you a slightly different take. 

You say you are questioning if you should marry him because his prospect of being a provider is not as good and you would like.  How would you feel if you found out he was questioning being married to you because you weren't quite as pretty as he would have liked?  Very likely you would feel as if he had just utterly destroyed your world you would very likely feel unfairly judged to expectations that are unreasonable.

Clearly men and women have different roles to play and different things they consider important and there is nothing wrong that.  Nor is there anything wrong with taking a good hard look at our potential spouses and what they offer...  But that hard look should be based on spiritual foundation rather then worldly one.  Just as there are worldly standards of beautify there are worldly standards of providing.

The question is... Can you get to the spiritual level or are you on the worldly level?  It is critical to know where you are.  Maybe you find that you need some work in this area.  That is ok we all have areas we need to work on.  But if you know you are weak in this area then you should not move forward into something that will make you miserable.  Its not fair to you and it is not fair to him.    

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18 hours ago, Katrina said:

My fiance and I have been engaged for about two months. I know this probably sounds incredibly shallow, but he has recently changed his major in school and wants to go into education rather than the psychology program he was in. He asked me my thoughts about it, and I at first I didn't mind and just wanted to support his dream. However, now that our wedding date is coming closer, I find myself really bothered by his major. I know a number of teachers and they all seem to make it all right even on one income, but it just doesn't seem... righteous. I know this sounds crazy, but it seems every single Mormon mentioned in the media is a great example of success. All the GAs have or had high-income careers. I know we shouldn't crave wealth, but isn't it a sign of righteous living just the same? I feel so shallow with this, especially since we are living as poor students anyway, but I'm not sure I want the quality of life a teacher would provide, even with a masters, after watching friends and family who live that way. 

Should I ask him to change his major back? At the same time, I also don't want him in a career he's bitter about. I just want us in a position to be a good example.

The major concerns have been addressed....whats your BF's number I need to call him and tell him to run for the hills.....better yet you do him the favor and end it now

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I thought this was a joke when I first read it - being a teacher is not 'righteous' - really?

What about the Master Teacher - Jesus Christ? 

He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. (Isaiah 53:3)

Worldly success and money equate to righteousness - where did you get that idea? The greatest example upon which we should model our life is our Saviour Jesus Christ. Was he not righteous because he was not rich?

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4 hours ago, Carborendum said:

That said, I'll make another commentary.  I'm a die-hard home-schooler.  So, the idea that your husband wants to be a teacher in a public school is just a bad idea to me.  And if you lean conservatively on the political spectrum (as many LDS do) then he's going to be in a world of hurt as educators nowadays lean quite liberal.  Many institutions of learning lean liberal a LOT.  He's going to be miserable just from that point alone.  ON THE OTHER HANDwe need more conservative teachers.

As a fellow homeschooler, I am mostly in agreement. The only disagreement I have is that it's per se a bad idea for a socially and politically conservative man (even a homeschooler) to be a public school teacher. As you point out, it's likely not to be a comfortable fit in a lot of ways. But many (I daresay most) parents use public school as a way to abdicate their parental responsibility, often unconsciously. For children of such parents, a good teacher is quite literally a Godsend.

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I'm giving the OP the benefit of the doubt regarding priorities because I have seen a number of people in the church--good people--who encourage sons and daughters to consider income. They do it with the best of intentions and of course we all should strive to be self-sufficient, but I've seen it often get misrepresented where girls are anxiously seeking the "candidate most likely to be rich" and using engagement rings to test out income.

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2 hours ago, estradling75 said:

There has been alot of good advice, but I would like to offer you a slightly different take. 

You say you are questioning if you should marry him because his prospect of being a provider is not as good and you would like.  How would you feel if you found out he was questioning being married to you because you weren't quite as pretty as he would have liked?  Very likely you would feel as if he had just utterly destroyed your world you would very likely feel unfairly judged to expectations that are unreasonable.

Clearly men and women have different roles to play and different things they consider important and there is nothing wrong that.  Nor is there anything wrong with taking a good hard look at our potential spouses and what they offer...  But that hard look should be based on spiritual foundation rather then worldly one.  Just as there are worldly standards of beautify there are worldly standards of providing.

The question is... Can you get to the spiritual level or are you on the worldly level?  It is critical to know where you are.  Maybe you find that you need some work in this area.  That is ok we all have areas we need to work on.  But if you know you are weak in this area then you should not move forward into something that will make you miserable.  Its not fair to you and it is not fair to him.    

In a recent thread, a young man voiced his struggles over whether his girlfriend and potential fiancée was the right one for him, suggesting that he might meet someone prettier. He was roundly thumped on for such an attitude. I am astounded* that the same people who so willingly got all over him for his "immaturity" and "shallowness" did not similarly condemn this young woman for daring to suggest that her fiancé's new career path might not be as lucrative as she might want.

*I'm not really astounded. I'm not even surprised. This shameless double standard is par for the course.

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