I feel silly doubting a relationship over career prospects, but there it is

[Guest MormonGator]

9 hours ago, Bad Karma said:

I call that the inherent thread of justice.

I know of one girl who divorced her second husband (with whom she had three children under five) to marry her third-a wealthy businessman. This businessman (surprise!) quickly got bored with her and dropped her for a newer model. She was left with nothing. When she begged her second husband for "another chance" he said "No thanks." She's now on husband number four and she's under 40 years old. The saddest part about this is that she blames everyone but herself. "Oh I'm just following my heart." Might want to follow your head too sweetie. 

[Guest]

8 hours ago, MormonGator said:

I know of one girl who divorced her second husband (with whom she had three children under five) to marry her third-a wealthy businessman. This businessman (surprise!) quickly got bored with her and dropped her for a newer model. She was left with nothing. When she begged her second husband for "another chance" he said "No thanks." She's now on husband number four and she's under 40 years old. The saddest part about this is that she blames everyone but herself. "Oh I'm just following my heart." Might want to follow your head too sweetie. 

ick!

[Guest MormonGator]

56 minutes ago, DoctorLemon said:

ick!

She's actually a very nice girl who has serious problems with her decision making ability. 

[Bad Karma]

10 hours ago, MormonGator said:

I know of one girl who divorced her second husband (with whom she had three children under five) to marry her third-a wealthy businessman. This businessman (surprise!) quickly got bored with her and dropped her for a newer model. She was left with nothing. When she begged her second husband for "another chance" he said "No thanks." She's now on husband number four and she's under 40 years old. The saddest part about this is that she blames everyone but herself. "Oh I'm just following my heart." Might want to follow your head too sweetie. 

It's unfortunate, but it happens.

My marriage is not perfect, but my wife and I are working on it, always. Sometimes it's tense, the rest of the time it's total blessing. She would not trade me for richer, I would not trade her for younger. It took half a lifetime to find the one that would understand me and me her. Heavenly father led me to a woman who would love me for me. I am blessed. 

[Vort]

15 hours ago, MormonGator said:

She's actually a very nice girl who has serious problems with her decision making ability. 

Depends on what you mean by "very nice". Leaving your husband and the father of your children in order to marry a rich man is despicable, no matter how friendly and polite you might be.

[Guest MormonGator]

19 minutes ago, Vort said:

Depends on what you mean by "very nice". Leaving your husband and the father of your children in order to marry a rich man is despicable, no matter how friendly and polite you might be.

Like everyone else I know she's a mixture of good, bad, and ugly. Her personality is very nice even though she's made bad choices in the past. In other words, she is human. 

[Vort]

1 hour ago, MormonGator said:

Like everyone else I know she's a mixture of good, bad, and ugly. Her personality is very nice even though she's made bad choices in the past. In other words, she is human. 

I'm sure you are right, MG. But my point remains: What does it mean when we say that someone is "a very nice girl"? I have been told that Satan is well-mannered and glib, a pleasure to converse with -- on his own terms. Such "niceness" has no real meaning, as far as I can tell.

[mordorbund]

11 minutes ago, Vort said:

I'm sure you are right, MG. But my point remains: What does it mean when we say that someone is "a very nice girl"? I have been told that Satan is well-mannered and glib, a pleasure to converse with -- on his own terms. Such "niceness" has no real meaning, as far as I can tell.

Quite pleasant indeed. See how Tyndale translated his conversation with Eve:

Quote

But the serpent was sotyller than all the beastes of the felde which ye LORde God had made and sayd vnto the woman. Ah syr that God hath sayd ye shall not eate of all maner trees in the garden. 

 

2 And the woman sayd vnto the serpent of the frute of the trees in the garden we may eate 

3 but of the frute of the tree yt is in the myddes of the garden (sayd God) se that ye eate not and se that ye touch it not: lest ye dye. 

 

4 Then sayd the serpent vnto the woman: tush ye shall not dye:

"Ah sir" - so polite. "tush ye shall not die" - so congenial.

[Guest MormonGator]

1 hour ago, Vort said:

. Such "niceness" has no real meaning, as far as I can tell.

She might donate huge amounts of her time and money to charity, for all you know. She might also save babies from burning buildings, and give a kidney to her brother. If she gave a kidney to your daughter (again, not @Vorts own kid. I don't even know if he has them universal usage of the word "your" )you'd surely think she was "nice".  No, she hasn't done all that but my point stands. However weak we might be in one way we might make up for it in other ways. Lincoln was right when he said "Those that have little vice often times have little virtue." 

Obviously because I know her I'm willing to give her the benefit of the doubt. 

Edited January 6, 2017 by MormonGator

[Vort]

37 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

She might donate huge amounts of her time and money to charity, for all you know. She might also save babies from burning buildings, and give a kidney to her brother. If she gave a kidney to your daughter (again, not @Vorts own kid. I don't even know if he has them universal usage of the word "your" )you'd surely think she was "nice".  No, she hasn't done all that but my point stands. However weak we might be in one way we might make up for it in other ways. Lincoln was right when he said "Those that have little vice often times have little virtue." 

Obviously because I know her I'm willing to give her the benefit of the doubt. 

I admire your willingness to give her the benefit of any doubt you have. I also agree with the general idea that we don't pass personal judgment on others.

However, consider that saying someone is "a good person" or "a nice person" is, in effect, passing a (positive) judgment on them. Perhaps it's better to pass overly positive judgments on people than overly negative -- but I'm not convinced. Certainly when I'm hiring a babysitter, a neurosurgeon, or a money manager, I will be far more sensitive to negative information, and far less willing to give an airy "Oh, he's a nice guy" and use that as any sort of hiring criterion.

I suspect that in all but the most superficial of ways, it is not possible to withhold judgment on everyone. As the Savior taught, we will be judged by the same metric we use to judge others, so we should strive to make our judgments just. And as Elder Oaks pointed out a few years ago, there is a major difference between judging actions and judging individuals, as well as between "transitory" judgment and "permanent" judgment.

Adolph Hitler was an artist of some ability, apparently loved Eva Braun, and was said to have been good with children. These are all good things that give us some hope that maybe, in some way, his soul is still human and not forever lost. But he systematically exterminated six million men, women, and children for the crime of being Jewish, and was central in bringing about a war that killed perhaps as many as 80 million people. We should not pass personal judgment on Adolph Hitler's standing before God, since that is not ours to do. But few would argue that, based on his works, he should not be considered A Bad Guy.

Your friend may not be any Adolph Hitler, but the principle is the same. Being fond of children and helping out in a soup kitchen are good things. They do not make up for abandoning one's husband and removing his children from his influence in order to marry a rich man. I have no authority to judge this nameless woman, whom I do not even pretend to know except for the brief description you gave. But based on the information presented, i think I'm justified in saying that she's a great example of how women should never be.

Edited January 6, 2017 by Vort

[Guest MormonGator]

2 minutes ago, Vort said:

Your friend may not be any Adolph Hitler, but the principle is the same.

She is planning to invade Poland, but that's our little secret, okay? 

[Vort]

1 minute ago, MormonGator said:

She is planning to invade Poland, but that's our little secret, okay? 

LOL

[Just_A_Guy]

On 1/2/2017 at 9:36 AM, Katrina said:

It's not like I expect a doctor or lawyer salary to live on. But yes, I guess I do want people to look at my lifestyle and see what Mormons are capable of. 

There's a charming little passage in "Pride and Prejudice" where Elizabeth, realizing how compatible her personality is with that of Mr. Darcy, self-effacingly regrets that she will never be able to marry him and thus show to the admiring masses an example of true connubial felicity.  

It's not bad to want to set a good example of any virtue; including fiscal prudence.  But IMHO it isn't terribly practical either.  Because in our debt-driven economy, the only way people will know you're setting a good example is if you release quarterly balance sheets.

Forget the Joneses. Pursue the lifestyle you want.  (After consultation with the Lord, of course.)

[SilentOne]

22 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

It's not bad to want to set a good example of any virtue; including fiscal prudence.  But IMHO it isn't terribly practical either.  Because in our debt-driven economy, the only way people will know you're setting a good example is if you release quarterly balance sheets.

My neighborhood has a bi-monthly newsletter. Maybe I should submit a balance sheet for inclusion in the next one.

[jerrop]

Jumping in after the action...

I will echo LiterateParakeet's remark about therapists or counselors not necessarily making lots of money. I claim some authority in this, having worked in mental health for some years and knowing professionals of all types in the field. Many of them do in fact earn little more than a teacher at the same level in their career. Let me give you some practical information. "Therapist" and "counselor" are broad terms, considering qualifications. You can be a therapist with a master's degree, but moneywise you are in the back of the line. Or you can be a therapist with an MD and still likely earn less money than other MD specialists. And all of that hinges on getting into a graduate program, which is far less simple or likely than many people think. Wanting admission doesn't get you in a program, just like wanting more money doesn't fill up your bank account. Four years of unsuccessful applications taught me that I was not heading in the direction the Lord wanted me to. That's one of the hard ways to figure it out.

But there's another consideration here. An upper middle class income for a therapist will require an investment of a good 4-5 years of graduate school, at least 1 year of internship, and possibly an additional 1-3 year fellowship, before you get close to that income supposedly showing everyone what a Mormon is capable of. Then for most it requires a minimum of 50-60 hour workweeks, as well as some evenings and weekends (unless you want to sacrifice pay). The work can be particularly draining and thankless, and with the direction healthcare is headed in, everything could change in 15-20 years. That will be your fiancé's life as you're trying to grow and raise a family if he keeps the original plan.

Our ward includes a medical school, and it's striking how most med students and residents have such little time for anything but training. Many (but not all) are completely out of touch with their families and hardly see them. Many (but not all) cringe at church callings with any time commitment. Many (but not all) say they feel like a zombie because they sacrifice so much sleep to [insert medicine thing]. I'll contrast that with my experience earning 60-70% of what I would have as a neuropsychologist, working 40 hour weeks with consistent scheduling and no evenings or weekends. I don't like my job, but it allows me to do what I do love: I have time for my family, I spend most evenings with my kids and the rest with ward members, I can commit adequate time to being engaged in church service (even in busy callings), I can reasonably maintain good health, and I even have some free time some days. Our house is not as fancy or as big as I once imagined, I drive a 25-year-old Honda, and I don't travel to exotic locales (unless the intermountain west counts). But our needs are met and that is enough.

Consider what the opportunity cost of a "higher" standard of living may be, for both of you. Money doesn't make someone evil, their choices do; still, money seems to open the door a bit wider. The Lord never told me He would give me a home in a gated community and new cars, but he did tell me He'd take care of me if I did the best I could to follow Him. I feel that, in spite of my many failings, He's kept good on that. Eowyn's right -- focus on showing people what kind of a *life* Mormons are capable of living. Aim for careers you like that will still allow you both to live good lives as good people. The blessings will be far richer than any level of income.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, jerrop said:

Jumping in after the action...

I will echo LiterateParakeet's remark about therapists or counselors not necessarily making lots of money. I claim some authority in this, having worked in mental health for some years and knowing professionals of all types in the field. Many of them do in fact earn little more than a teacher at the same level in their career. Let me give you some practical information. "Therapist" and "counselor" are broad terms, considering qualifications. You can be a therapist with a master's degree, but moneywise you are in the back of the line. Or you can be a therapist with an MD and still likely earn less money than other MD specialists. And all of that hinges on getting into a graduate program, which is far less simple or likely than many people think. Wanting admission doesn't get you in a program, just like wanting more money doesn't fill up your bank account. Four years of unsuccessful applications taught me that I was not heading in the direction the Lord wanted me to. That's one of the hard ways to figure it out.

But there's another consideration here. An upper middle class income for a therapist will require an investment of a good 4-5 years of graduate school, at least 1 year of internship, and possibly an additional 1-3 year fellowship, before you get close to that income supposedly showing everyone what a Mormon is capable of. Then for most it requires a minimum of 50-60 hour workweeks, as well as some evenings and weekends (unless you want to sacrifice pay). The work can be particularly draining and thankless, and with the direction healthcare is headed in, everything could change in 15-20 years. That will be your fiancé's life as you're trying to grow and raise a family if he keeps the original plan.

Our ward includes a medical school, and it's striking how most med students and residents have such little time for anything but training. Many (but not all) are completely out of touch with their families and hardly see them. Many (but not all) cringe at church callings with any time commitment. Many (but not all) say they feel like a zombie because they sacrifice so much sleep to [insert medicine thing]. I'll contrast that with my experience earning 60-70% of what I would have as a neuropsychologist, working 40 hour weeks with consistent scheduling and no evenings or weekends. I don't like my job, but it allows me to do what I do love: I have time for my family, I spend most evenings with my kids and the rest with ward members, I can commit adequate time to being engaged in church service (even in busy callings), I can reasonably maintain good health, and I even have some free time some days. Our house is not as fancy or as big as I once imagined, I drive a 25-year-old Honda, and I don't travel to exotic locales (unless the intermountain west counts). But our needs are met and that is enough.

Consider what the opportunity cost of a "higher" standard of living may be, for both of you. Money doesn't make someone evil, their choices do; still, money seems to open the door a bit wider. The Lord never told me He would give me a home in a gated community and new cars, but he did tell me He'd take care of me if I did the best I could to follow Him. I feel that, in spite of my many failings, He's kept good on that. Eowyn's right -- focus on showing people what kind of a *life* Mormons are capable of living. Aim for careers you like that will still allow you both to live good lives as good people. The blessings will be far richer than any level of income.

This brings up an interesting question... is it righteous for a father to work 70 hours a week regularly and neglect church and family in pursuit of getting rich?  Or is it actually a type of idol worship, in that you are putting money ahead of God?  Are you better off in the eyes of God being lower middle class and working normal hours?

I am not making a judgment on those who do work 70 hour weeks regularly... just thinking out loud.  But i do worry that increasingly long workweeks are leading America to become a father deprived society.  This can't be good for the integrity of the family.

Like they say in law, no one on their death bed regrets "not billing more hours".

Edited January 13, 2017 by DoctorLemon

[Larry Cotrell]

59 minutes ago, DoctorLemon said:

This brings up an interesting question... is it righteous for a father to work 70 hours a week regularly and neglect church and family in pursuit of getting rich?  Or is it actually a type of idol worship, in that you are putting money ahead of God?

 I think becoming completely obsessed with anything is a form of idol worship.  This definitely includes work and money. 

1 John 2:15-17 "Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever."

[jerrop]

5 minutes ago, DoctorLemon said:

I am not making a judgment on those who do work 70 hour weeks regularly... just thinking out loud.  But i do worry that increasingly long workweeks are leading America to become a father deprived society.  This can't be good for the integrity of the family.

This is exactly my feeling. I hope I didn't come across as judgmental myself. I maybe got a touch ahead of myself in places. I should say that I do know men who commit this kind of time to work and are still tremendous fathers and husbands, and neglect neither family nor church. So I know it's possible, and they all say the way they make it happen is making a very conscious and sometimes heroic effort to give family and church their due. I suppose the source of the implied question is the observation that some choose to approach work in a way that precludes fulfillment of other responsibilities. (And this isn't exclusively medicine or healthcare; it can be seen anywhere.)

My own father was self-employed for a good portion of my youth and I remember many nights when a production run was starting so he would come home just in time for dinner and go back to work right after to tend the machines all night. We would drop in sometimes and it seemed awful all the way around. Given the circumstances, that was what it took to keep things afloat, and I now understand the pressures he faced. One of the best moments was hearing that he was leaving his company for a quiet 9-5. We all survived, and he and I have a good relationship now, but I wonder sometimes how it would have been different if he had more time to be at home. I can only imagine how it affected my mom.

So I always try to carefully evaluate what a job will cost me and my family, rather than just what it will pay me. I encourage others (especially the OP) to do the same. I know myself well enough to know that committing that much to work would have serious detrimental effects on what is really my life's work. I give serious credit to those who can make it all happen.

Sorry to derail the thread...

[Latter-Day Marriage]

2 hours ago, DoctorLemon said:

This brings up an interesting question... is it righteous for a father to work 70 hours a week regularly and neglect church and family in pursuit of getting rich?  Or is it actually a type of idol worship, in that you are putting money ahead of God?  Are you better off in the eyes of God being lower middle class and working normal hours?

I am not making a judgment on those who do work 70 hour weeks regularly... just thinking out loud.  But i do worry that increasingly long workweeks are leading America to become a father deprived society.  This can't be good for the integrity of the family.

Like they say in law, no one on their death bed regrets "not billing more hours".

Doing that to get rich isn't right, but there can be times where for a time a person might have to do that to deal with a crisis.

[Guest]

16 minutes ago, Latter-Day Marriage said:

Doing that to get rich isn't right, but there can be times where for a time a person might have to do that to deal with a crisis.

Good clarification - i am not talking about working 70 hours three weeks a year when things get crazy, or working a 70 hour a week job because nothing else is available while you look for something else to do.  I am talking about those fathers who make a conscious decision to work 80 hours a week in a biglaw firm for decades on end because they want to live in a mcmansion (which they will wind up spending about 30 hours a week in, mostly sleeping).

To me, such a lifestyle is not living, nor is it doing the Lord's work on the Earth.  It is wasting away your prime years on a mess of pottage.  It is missing your childrens' childhoods.  It is risking your eternal marriage.  And, unfortunately, many really high paying jobs are like this.

Someday, these fathers will be on their death beds, and what will they have to show for their lives?  Money?  Well, they can't take that with them.  They will have wished that they had spent their time taking care of others and preparing for eternity rather than chasing money.

Edited January 13, 2017 by DoctorLemon

[Backroads]

There are seasons to life where, sure, you can wrap yourself up in your career more than in other times. There's nothing wrong with building a strong career.

But, all things being equal, I don't think it's right to regularly work long hours at the expense of your family if you can help it. The father ought to be the provider, not the mysterious figure who deposits paychecks into the family account.

On that same note, I have heard of men who work multiple jobs and never see their families so their wives can stay home. While I don't condemn the desire, that situation personally doesn't sit right with me.

[NightSG]

32 minutes ago, DoctorLemon said:

Someday, these fathers will be on their death beds, and what will they have to show for their lives?  Money?  Well, they can't take that with them.

Of course not; their kids will need it for therapy.

[Latter-Day Marriage]

On 2017-01-13 at 6:27 PM, Backroads said:

On that same note, I have heard of men who work multiple jobs and never see their families so their wives can stay home. While I don't condemn the desire, that situation personally doesn't sit right with me.

That's a harder call to make.  There is a HUGE advantage to the kids to have a full time mom and that certainly is worth some level of sacrifice.  If the husband has a career and not just a job, having the wife home full times gives him an advantage in the workplace as well.  If he is just working dead end jobs and there is no plan to get to a point where he can work less and still have her home then they need to do something about that.

[Bad Karma]

On 1/13/2017 at 0:07 PM, DoctorLemon said:

This brings up an interesting question... is it righteous for a father to work 70 hours a week regularly and neglect church and family in pursuit of getting rich?  Or is it actually a type of idol worship, in that you are putting money ahead of God?  Are you better off in the eyes of God being lower middle class and working normal hours?

I am not making a judgment on those who do work 70 hour weeks regularly... just thinking out loud.  But i do worry that increasingly long workweeks are leading America to become a father deprived society.  This can't be good for the integrity of the family.

Like they say in law, no one on their death bed regrets "not billing more hours".

Matthew 19:24 " And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God".

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Bad Karma said:

Matthew 19:24 " And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God".

I have always interpreted the "rich man" in this scripture to not refer to a person who happens to have money, but rather a person who has set his heart upon having money and adopts a certain subset of attitudes that come with this mentality (such as the belief that the poor are somehow less worthy or righteous, and should be shunned to some degree or another).  You can be a "rich man" and not have lots of money.  Conversely, you can be "middle class" (read: righteous) and have millions, or even billions, of dollars.  It all depends on what your attitude towards money is.

I know plenty of wonderful Mormons who have good, righteous morals and a middle class mentality, complete with due humility... and happen to have, for whatever reason, been blessed with a couple of million dollars in a bank account.  One of the most righteous men I have ever met was the millionaire in my home ward, who would do anything to help someone in need, and I mean anything.  (He had seven sons, ALL of whom served missions and married in the temple!)  I have no reason to doubt that these wonderful souls will be saved in the Celestial Kingdom.

I have also unfortunately known some people who have become obsessed with money, and more to the point, with social class.  They have taken up this attitude that they are better than people who are poorer or less educated, and are constantly "sizing up" others in comparison to themselves (which is the definition of pride, according to the Church)..  What is interesting, these people with these types of attitude may not necessarily have money... I have known people who are middle to upper-middle class who still harbor these attitudes.  However, I believe that these people, who harbor these attitudes, are the rich people referred to in Matthew 19:24.  

And, while I do think that OP has a right to have some say in her husband's career decisions, I think her statement about how good Mormons should necessarily be wealthy is disturbingly close to what the Savior warned against in Matthew 19:24.  

Bottom line - you just don't want to be one of the "rich people" spoken in Matthew 19:24.  It is repulsive to God, and it is repulsive to others.  Just don't go there.

Edited January 15, 2017 by DoctorLemon