Do Mormons seem relaxed enough to you?

[Guest]

From my own personal observation it seems Mormons as a collective religion seem to be non stop working and a lot of worrying and stress and pressure in life. I've experienced this myself from being in the church my whole life. I look at Buddhists and they seem so relaxed and at peace and seem to enjoy life the most. Do you agree that lots of Mormons are heavily stressed and that Buddhists seem to be able to relax more? When I think of Mormon people I think of parents with 5 or more kids struggling to succeed financially and worrying about achieving eternal life. Or young men and women worrying about if they are worthy to go on a mission and be good enough. That puts a ton of stress on the mind and all of my mental stress is from worrying about if I'm a good enough Mormon. I have Buddhist friends and they seem so much happier and just let life come to them and achieve inner peace and don't worry as much. I'm in no way interested in becoming a Buddhist (If I wasn't a Mormon I might want to be though), but I can't help but notice how stressed out and worried Mormons are, and how high the use of anti depressants in Utah is compared to other states in the United States.

[Guest]

I personally should be an example to you all that Mormons aren't relaxed enough in life.

[Jane_Doe]

7 minutes ago, Zarahemla said:

I personally should be an example to you all that Mormons aren't relaxed enough in life.

Zarahemala, the only person who is making your life stressful is YOU.  It is not Christ.  Our faith encourages us to count our many blessings, to ponder on the wonders God has done, to commune with Him, to take days of rest, to feel love and joy-- and to cherish all of these wonderful things.  You do NOT need to worry about if you're good enough.  You do NOT need to obsess over this the way you do.  It's unhealthy and against the ways of the Lord.

I'm going to reiterate my concerns that you may have OCD and should talk to your counselor about this.  

Edited December 24, 2016 by Jane_Doe

[Guest]

18 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

Zarahemala, the only person who is making your life stressful is YOU.  It is not Christ.  Our faith encourages us to count our many blessings, to ponder on the wonders God has done, to commune with Him, to take days of rest, to feel love and joy-- and to cherish all of these wonderful things.  You do NOT need to worry about if you're good enough.  You do NOT need to obsess over this the way you do.  It's unhealthy and against the ways of the Lord.

I'm going to reiterate my concerns that you may have OCD and should talk to your counselor about this.  

That's a load of crap that only I am the reason my life is stressful. Do you have any idea how strict the church is to teaching youth and adults about what to do and what not to do and that you will lose your family for eternity if you're not good enough? Not just me, but why is anti depressant use so high in Utah and why is suicide now going up among teenagers in Utah if not stress that the church imposes? I can't tell you how stressful watching old apostles speak like Spencer W Kimball and his book Miracle of Forgiveness. If you're going to suggest I have OCD and need to speak to my counselor about this, then you need to speak to many other Mormons in Utah who feel similar to me.

Edited December 24, 2016 by Zarahemla

[Jane_Doe]

Zarahemla, I have a friend who in college became very concerned about hygiene.  He would wash his hands very thoroughly before he ate.  That's a good thing right?  He washed them VERY thoroughly-- for 15 minutes straight with hard core soap.  In fact, we washed his hands so brutally that they water would run red with his blood.  He did this before every meal.  And before bed.  And before going to class.  And after class.  And in the middle of class.  And then he couldn't go to class any more because he couldn't stand the risk of contamination.  He quit his job because he was so worried about risk of contamination.  He nearly failed out of school and lost his scholarships.  He washed himself so brutally that he had to be had to be hospitalized- not just once, but repeatedly.  

Finally this friend went to counseling and was diagnosed with OCD.  He received treatment for this debilitating sickness.  He's better now: he has a job, does well in school, has many many friends, and is admired by all who know him.  

When I talk to you, I am thoroughly reminded of my friend.  You both want to be clean (he literally, you metaphorically) and nothing is wrong with wanting to be clean.  But when being clean becomes an debilitating obsession, it's a sickness itself.  I see how my friend is joyful in life today, and I wish that you could be healed too.

If you'd like, I could give you this friend's contact information.  He is now a huge advocate of mental health resources and especially OCD.   

Edited December 25, 2016 by Jane_Doe

[Guest]

29 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

Zarahemla, I have a friend who in college became very concerned about hygiene.  He would wash his hands very thoroughly before he ate.  That's a good thing right?  He washed them VERY thoroughly-- for 15 minutes straight with hard core soap.  In fact, we washed his hands so brutally that they water would run red with his blood.  He did this before every meal.  And before bed.  And before going to class.  And after class.  And in the middle of class.  And then he couldn't go to class any more because he couldn't stand the risk of contamination.  He quit his job because he was so worried about risk of contamination.  He nearly failed out of school and lost his scholarships.  He washed himself so brutally that he had to be had to be hospitalized- not just once, but repeatedly.  

Finally this friend went to counseling and was diagnosed with OCD.  He received treatment for this debilitating sickness.  He's better now: he has a job, does well in school, has many many friends, and is admired by all who know him.  

When I talk to you, I am thoroughly reminded of my friend.  You both want to be clean (he literally, you metaphorically) and nothing is wrong with wanting to be clean.  But when being clean becomes an debilitating obsession, it's a sickness itself.  I see how my friend is joyful in life today, and I wish that you could be healed too.

If you'd like, I could give you this friend's contact information.  He is now a huge advocate of mental health resources and especially OCD.   

You still haven't addressed any of the issues I raised, you just go after my mental health.

[Guest]

46 minutes ago, Zarahemla said:

That's a load of crap that only I am the reason my life is stressful. Do you have any idea how strict the church is to teaching youth and adults about what to do and what not to do and that you will lose your family for eternity if you're not good enough? Not just me, but why is anti depressant use so high in Utah and why is suicide now going up among teenagers in Utah if not stress that the church imposes? I can't tell you how stressful watching old apostles speak like Spencer W Kimball and his book Miracle of Forgiveness. If you're going to suggest I have OCD and need to speak to my counselor about this, then you need to speak to many other Mormons in Utah who feel similar to me.

It is actually pretty easy to not lose your family for eternity in the Church, when you think about it.  Assuming serious past sins are all cleared up, you really need to just stay with the program and always be making some effort, no matter how small, at improving yourself spiritually.  The Church gives you plenty of opportunities for this, such as calling to magnify, home teaching, chances at service, etc.  We also have a killer form of feedback in temple worthiness interviews, which should help us to exactly understand our standing before God.

Basically, if you have repented of your serious sins, stay with the program and keep moving forward spiritually (even slowly), you will not be found to be lukewarm and you will be saved in the Celestial Kingdom.  Don't overthink it; just keep moving forward and trust in grace for your imperfections.

As for antidepressant use, it may be a symptom that people in Utah are more well off and educated and more likely to get help for depression and the like then say, here in Texas, where there are millions of impovershed people with neither the resources nor the know how to get help.

[Jane_Doe]

8 minutes ago, Zarahemla said:

You still haven't addressed any of the issues I raised, you just go after my mental health.

When I see someone who is displaying signs of illness, I'm going to say "you appear ill".  I see this thread as a symptom of what's going on, not the cause.

Edited December 25, 2016 by Jane_Doe

[Jane_Doe]

15 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

When I see someone who is displaying signs of illness, I'm going to say "you appear ill".  I see this thread as a symptom of what's going on, not the cause.

Note: I'm also not stigmatizing you for being ill.  I just told you about my friend who I admire going through OCD.  I've spent most of my life with clinical depression and two of my best friends have it.  So many others in my life have also gone through mental health troubles.  I'm saying what saying because I've been in the throughs of mental sickness and I know personally how getting healed completely changes things for the better.

[Guest MormonGator]

@Zarahemla I think @Jane_Doe and the rest of us have bent over backwards to be accommodating to you. This is how you re-pay us? By saying we are all uptight and should take advice from you? Odd, given that you've asked us for advice virtually daily. Not cool bro. 

[zil]

Quote

Do Mormons seem relaxed enough to you?

Yes, especially when they're unconscious, like during a High Council Sacrament Meeting.

Zarahemla, I was born in the church too (I'd guess ~15+ years before you), and I don't stress over these things.  Know what the difference is?  (Besides experience, which you ought not to reject the wisdom of.)  Thankfully (for me), I was raised in Low-Density Zion (where church was half an hour away, and the stake covered a significant portion of the state).  (That won't account for all of it - I learned early on that stressing over things is counter-productive¹.)  You're seeing Utah culture, not the truth of the Gospel.  This is my biggest complaint about Utah Mormons - far too many of them (especially those with long family history in the church) cannot tell the difference between the culture and the doctrine (both in canonizing culture and treating doctrine casually).  Learning to correctly distinguish will bring a person greater happiness and success in the Gospel (which is all about happiness and success).

¹ I think this is something worth exploring until you've mastered it.  Whether you do that on your own, with someone's help, or not at all, is, of course, your choice, but I think it can be a learned behavior.  Stressing is self-defeating, and in my experience, all self-defeating thought and behavior is straight from Satan.

PS: In addition to the wrong elements of the culture, some research from not long ago (it was in Utah papers) suggested that high altitude aggravates depression - this actually makes biological sense².  Certainly it can't explain everything, but it should be considered a contributing factor.

² It is my understanding that there is a gland which reacts to high blood pressure, releasing calming chemicals (or hormones, don't remember, maybe they're the same thing) so your anger doesn't kill you - literally.  The problem is, the body cannot tell the difference between high pressure in the blood vessels and low pressure outside them.  Thus, when there's bad weather (or you're at altitude), this chemical is released (even though you don't need it) and calms you down (or, since you don't need it, makes you feel sad).  That could be old and wrong information (I read it in a book written decades ago), but it sure sounds convincing.

Whatever else is true, let go of the stress and the to-do lists and focus on becoming someone who loves God and wishes to follow the example of the Savior - his yoke is easy and his burden is light.

[Guest]

All of my hope and peace comes from Christ. All of it. My stress and unrest comes from cares of the world. I know that even on days when I'm worried about money or my weight or whatever, I can remember that those are temporary things, and that through Christ I have hope for eternal happiness, but also joy right now. 

I have major depressive disorder, and life has been pretty crappy for my family in a lot of ways for the last few years. But I feel joy, because I know that my mistakes and my pain and sorrows will be swallowed up in Christ through His Atonement. Not only that they will be someday, but they can be and have been now. 

Get to know Him and ask for that. The people who are grounded in hope through Him are the most peaceful, content people I know. The people running a rat race or trying to check off lists are miserable, as evidenced by your current state of unhappiness. 

[Guest]

Maybe it's just because I've had stressful church leaders, especially in my youth who pound in more thoughts in my head about what I could lose and sin, then about Christ and forgiveness and atonement.

[zil]

5 minutes ago, Zarahemla said:

Maybe it's just because I've had stressful church leaders, especially in my youth who pound in more thoughts in my head about what I could lose and sin, then about Christ and forgiveness and atonement.

You didn't like hearing it before, so you probably won't like hearing it again, but this is an important lesson to learn: You get to decide how you react to what others say.  Learn to note their words and then go away privately to ponder and pray about them.

Bonus lesson: not sure when I discovered this one, but eventually I discovered that some of the things I learned from my parents were not the things they were trying to teach me.  I expect this would be true for anyone who was trying to teach me something.  They were saying "A" and I was learning "A²".  So again, ponder and pray about what others tell you, so that the Spirit can teach you.

[Guest]

I agree with zil. It is possible that you choose what you hear in what people say. It could be possible that your leaders were teaching you about that Atonement as they warned you about sin, but you were so fixated on the sin part that you tuned it out. Goodness knows it happens here.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Zarahemla said:

Do Mormons seem relaxed enough to you?

Just look at the Lame Jokes thread.  One of the common things I've seen about most very active dedicated Mormons is that we tend to be a "silly" people.  Yes, we have plenty of fun and we relax enough.  I think that you confuse "caring" for "worrying".

If you tout it as a virtue that one has no cares in the world, I'd say you've got some messed up values.  We're supposed to care about things.  Think about who tells us "Eat,drink, and be merry, for tomorrow we die."  No, we're supposed to care about what is right.  We're supposed to care about others.  If we see some people suffering, shouldn't we want to do something about it?

Ask yourself: when was the last time you saw a Buddhist effort at charitable work?  Disaster relief?  Feed the hungry? Aid the poor?  Heal the sick?  That is what "not caring" gets you.  Is that what you want?

You think Buddhists are worry free?  You don't know enough Buddhists.  All Asians tended to congregate when I was growing up. Being a Mormon made no difference in that regard.  While they didn't have the same concerns, they still had concerns.  While they didn't worry about what I worried about, they still worried.  You're just spending a lot of time seeing Buddhists at their best and comparing it to your worst.  That's not apples to apples.

2 hours ago, Zarahemla said:

I personally should be an example to you all that Mormons aren't relaxed enough in life.

In life we must come to understand that most of the battles we fight are not with others, but with ourselves.  The greatest influence we have is to change ourselves, not others.  When we blame externalities for all our woes, we can never conquer ourselves.  It is only admitting our own weaknesses that we can address them.

Let me explain about "peace" and enduring to the end.

You've heard many people say that it's about "becoming" rather than "doing".  I don't think anyone gave you a practical example of what this means.

I had a friend named Claudia who had a "lost life".  She had been doing a good job of straightening her life out by the time I came around.  But she was still struggling with some things.  For example, she still had trouble quitting smoking.  Any time we were near anyone smoking, she'd get this tremendous urge to get a cigarette and light up.  She recognized there were some triggers that she could avoid so she didn't feel the urge.  Because once she felt the urge, it was so very difficult to resist.

One day we were walking down the street and she saw up ahead some smoker headed straight for us.  She panicked and said we had to cross the street immediately.  We did.  She pointed to the guy who was smoking and explained it to me.  Some months later, she found herself in a really good place.  She had so much peace in her life because she realized one day that she simply didn't have the desire to smoke anymore.  She looked at someone who was smoking and didn't have the panic she used to have.  She simply looked at it and thought,"That's really disgusting.  I can't believe I ever used to smoke."  She wasn't just hanging on with white knuckled fury.  She had become.  She caught the vision.  Being in that place is when you'll see true peace.  But that kind of peace doesn't come easy.  You see the peace of Buddhists.  I'll tell you from experience that doesn't even compare to the eventual peace from truly "becoming" the Celestial person that the Lord knows you can be.

I grew up with Buddhists.  And Taoism and Confucianism are what Koreans taught prior to the past few decades. Since I've spent a lot of time studying Korean culture, I tend to know these somewhat better than Buddhism.  And I can certainly see elements of wisdom and peace from all three. But the motivation to make life better for ourselves and others, the motivation to conquer the demons within, the principles of personal responsibility and public virtue are unparalleled in the Mormon faith.  But it does require something of us in the beginning.

It is only natural for you to think the grass is greener on the other side.  But I've been there.  And their springtime is certainly greener than our wintertime.  But our Summertime is second to none.

[Bad Karma]

OP,

I don't know, maybe we're taught to be accountable on a level of greater transparency than the other ducks on the pond, I like it, I love it that I have a testimony through some crazy stuff, I love it that second only to God himself, my wife, I am totally accountable to, dedicated to my children as well. I'm comfortable with being accountable to a fairly tough and often not very understanding Bishop, I'm comfortable with the men in my HPs group, we hold ourselves accountable to each other too. Do we worry that much you think? I don't think worry is the right word, I think we have simply chosen to belong to the body of a religion that believes in accountability, honesty, hard work, devotion to family, champions itself against evil where it is found. I'm a convert, I converted in my early 20s, I quickly witnessed the goodness of those fine folk and how they were always there for eachother and wanted that for myself. We're MORMONS, we are truly our brother's keeper. I think that is pretty cool. Do I think about my God more now as a Mormon than I did before I was a Mormon? I'd like to think so. He's been really good to me. 

[Just_A_Guy]

5 hours ago, Zarahemla said:

From my own personal observation it seems Mormons as a collective religion seem to be non stop working and a lot of worrying and stress and pressure in life. I've experienced this myself from being in the church my whole life. I look at Buddhists and they seem so relaxed and at peace and seem to enjoy life the most. Do you agree that lots of Mormons are heavily stressed and that Buddhists seem to be able to relax more? When I think of Mormon people I think of parents with 5 or more kids struggling to succeed financially and worrying about achieving eternal life. Or young men and women worrying about if they are worthy to go on a mission and be good enough. That puts a ton of stress on the mind and all of my mental stress is from worrying about if I'm a good enough Mormon. I have Buddhist friends and they seem so much happier and just let life come to them and achieve inner peace and don't worry as much. I'm in no way interested in becoming a Buddhist (If I wasn't a Mormon I might want to be though), but I can't help but notice how stressed out and worried Mormons are, and how high the use of anti depressants in Utah is compared to other states in the United States.

I have a Bhuddist-ex-Mormon client who insists that life is so much better now that she is away from Mormon oppression.  But, you know what?  In between all her meditation, her life is an ever-loving mess:  multiple criminal charges for intoxication, multiple incidents where her minor daughter was legally removed from her custody, a divorce, another adult daughter from whom she is estranged, and--topping it all off--she faces imminent deportation in about a month.  She is utterly unwilling to pay the price it would take to get her life together--she's a "good person inside", so she says; and sooner or later the world will naturally give her what she deserves.

But as for us:  we're Mormons.  We build things; and part of that building process naturally entails stepping back to make sure you're doing it right; and some of us do get overly wrapped up in that self-criticism until we internalize the true scope of Christ's atonement and enabling power.

By the way, Utah's depression/suicide stats are of a piece with those from other Mountain West states whose LDS populations are much lower.  The causes for this are not entirely understood; but the factors already mentioned (altitude, willingness to seek treatment through medical caregivers, reluctance to immediately self-medicate with illicit substances) probably do play a role in conjunction with genetics (Scandinavians have higher suicide rates and there are lots of Scandinavians in Utah).

[Bad Karma]

26 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

I have a Bhuddist-ex-Mormon client who insists that life is so much better now that she is away from Mormon oppression.  But, you know what?  In between all her meditation, her life is an ever-loving mess:  multiple criminal charges for intoxication, multiple incidents where her minor daughter was legally removed from her custody, a divorce, another adult daughter from whom she is estranged, and--topping it all off--she faces imminent deportation in about a month.  She is utterly unwilling to pay the price it would take to get her life together--she's a "good person inside", so she says; and sooner or later the world will naturally give her what she deserves.

But as for us:  we're Mormons.  We build things; and part of that building process naturally entails stepping back to make sure you're doing it right; and some of us do get overly wrapped up in that self-criticism until we internalize the true scope of Christ's atonement and enabling power.

By the way, Utah's depression/suicide stats are of a piece with those from other Mountain West states whose LDS populations are much lower.  The causes for this are not entirely understood; but the factors already mentioned (altitude, willingness to seek treatment through medical caregivers, reluctance to immediately self-medicate with illicit substances) probably do play a role in conjunction with genetics (Scandinavians have higher suicide rates and there are lots of Scandinavians in Utah).

I always laugh when I see the words "Mormon oppression", they are typically uttered by some pretty odd ducks, yup, we're oppressive! Knock off with the coffee, tea, booze, smoking, dope, fornication, messin' around, porn, theft, lying, murder, kicking your dog, stuff like that. We just ruin everyone's fun, dog gone Mormons!

Self observation, every time I have put the church on a back burner, my life takes turns for the truly tragic. I'll take two scoops of that "Mormon oppression", it works for me. My Mormon wife has said pretty much the same thing, odd that, no? Imagine that, a male and female consensus, who'd a thunk it? *Chuckle*

[Guest]

So the biggest advice I am getting here is develop my relationship with Christ and just focus on Christ, not checklists in order to achieve exaltation.

[kapikui]

16 hours ago, Zarahemla said:

That's a load of crap that only I am the reason my life is stressful. Do you have any idea how strict the church is to teaching youth and adults about what to do and what not to do and that you will lose your family for eternity if you're not good enough? Not just me, but why is anti depressant use so high in Utah and why is suicide now going up among teenagers in Utah if not stress that the church imposes? I can't tell you how stressful watching old apostles speak like Spencer W Kimball and his book Miracle of Forgiveness. If you're going to suggest I have OCD and need to speak to my counselor about this, then you need to speak to many other Mormons in Utah who feel similar to me.

Actually attempted suicide rate in Utah is one of the lowest.  It's just that Utah has an insanely high successful suicide rate,  which speaks to method, not motive.

[Ironhold]

7 hours ago, kapikui said:

Actually attempted suicide rate in Utah is one of the lowest.  It's just that Utah has an insanely high successful suicide rate,  which speaks to method, not motive.

I've heard about something called the "Hilton Report", which looked at the suicide rate. I've seen summations, but I can't find the actual report. 

http://www.adherents.com/largecom/lds_dem.html

The report says that active Mormons are 200% less likely to commit suicide, due in large part to the church's strong social network and abstinence from addictive substances like alcohol and illegal drugs. Rather, the state's high rate is due in large part to a wildly disproportionate number of non-member and inactive-member suicides. 

Another study that came out a few years ago added to matters by noting that places with high elevations tended to have higher rates of suicide, suggesting that the elevation itself has some sort of blame. This seems to match the information provided by the Kaiser Family Foundation - http://kff.org/other/state-indicator/poor-mental-health-among-adults/?activeTab=map&currentTimeframe=0&selectedDistributions=poor-mental-health-among-adults - which has over the last several years noted a consistently high incidence rate in the Rocky Mountain region. 

[Jane_Doe]

19 hours ago, Zarahemla said:

So the biggest advice I am getting here is develop my relationship with Christ and just focus on Christ, not checklists in order to achieve exaltation.

That is an excellent goal.  To help you on this quest, I think talking to your therapist about it will also be of benefit.  

[Fether]

I feel like stress can also be a sign of progression. Prophets, while in trials, are often said to be "weighed down by the sins of the people". Stress isn't bad, sadness isn't bad, etc. but it's the losing hope and faith that is bad.

Relaxation is not a fruit of the spirit x) peace is though!!

[Larry Cotrell]

As an unbiased third party, I would say most Mormons seem relaxed. There's always that one guy though (cough, cough, @MormonGator, cough) *Totally joking, if you weren't relaxed I couldn't say things like that

But yes, usually religious people in general are more relaxed. I've found that Mormons are almost always enjoying life.

Edited December 26, 2016 by Larry Cotrell