Mormon Tabernacle Choir singer quits because she claims Trump represents tyranny and fascism

[ldsister]

1 minute ago, Vort said:

Not sure how else to explain it to you, ldsister. I thought I was careful and thorough, but perhaps I have done a poor job of explaining. You know, the reader has some responsibility to take care in reading and parsing what is written. Perhaps it is you that has done a poor job of actually reading what was written. In any case, I will try once more.

I object to Sister Chamberlin using her position in the Mormon Tabernacle Choir as a pulpit for declaring her political opinion. She disgraces herself by publicly quitting the Choir and specifying it's because she doesn't like the president-elect. Had she quietly left the Choir because of her political opinion, I would have respected and even admired that. But, of course, I would not have, because I would not have known about it. And THAT was her whole point -- she wanted everyone to know about it. Despicable.

I would have felt the same way had Sister Beck trotted around proclaiming her previous status as General Relief Society president and pretending that had some bearing on her prayer at Trump's function. But of course, Sister Beck did no such thing. Unlike Sister Chamberlin, Sister Beck would not do any such thing.

Is that clear? Or do you still think this has something to do with my perception of public opinion?

I understood you. 

[Vort]

2 minutes ago, ldsister said:

I understood you. 

So then, I take it that you have no principled objection to Sister Chamberlin quitting the Mormon Tabernacle Choir in such a public way and calling out that she was doing so because she disagreed with the Choir singing at Trump's inauguration. I assume that, in the interest of honesty and consistency, you also would have no problem with someone publicly trading on his or her Church connections in support of Trump (or of puppy stomping, or of the widespread use of margarine, or some other topic you find distasteful). Right?

[ldsister]

4 minutes ago, Vort said:

So then, I take it that you have no principled objection to Sister Chamberlin quitting the Mormon Tabernacle Choir in such a public way and calling out that she was doing so because she disagreed with the Choir singing at Trump's inauguration. I assume that, in the interest of honesty and consistency, you also would have no problem with someone publicly trading on his or her Church connections in support of Trump (or of puppy stomping, or of the widespread use of margarine, or some other topic you find distasteful). Right?

I'm happy to continue discussing the interface between and faith and politics, though the current tone seems a bit tense. Are you interested in a conversation or do you see this being an argument? If it's the former, I would love to keep talking. If it's the latter, I'll probably opt out of this thread. 

Edited January 3, 2017 by ldsister

[Vort]

31 minutes ago, ldsister said:

I'm happy to continue discussing the interface between and faith and politics, though the current tone seems a bit tense. Are you interested in a conversation or do you see this being an argument? If it's the former, I would love to keep talking. If it's the latter, I'll probably opt out of this thread. 

I confess to having been more than a bit irritated. I am no fan of Donald Trump, as anyone who has spent time on this forum in the last nine months can attest. But disloyalty to the gospel or to the Church (which is ultimately the same disloyalty) is intolerable. I am sure that Sister Chamberlin does not consider herself disloyal and doesn't see anything wrong or duplicitous with her own actions, but I do and I do. And I get more irritated when people refuse to see the distinction between acting on one's beliefs and using one's Church position as an adjunct to their political activities, either in a positive or a negative sense.

But my irritation with what you wrote is ultimately my problem, not yours. I apologize for being less than friendly.

[estradling75]

4 hours ago, ldsister said:

Out of curiosity, what are your feelings about Julie B. Beck's endorsement of Trump? Do you consider her, as one of the most recognizable and prominent women in the church, as having used "her position in the Kingdom of God to promote her own political agenda"?

Fair enough... lets clarify my answer.  The  church has a very clear system and process when members have issues.  This process is wildly different then the one used to handling government problems.

In the church if there is a issue with how an organization is handling things you go to the head of that organization.  Because we believe that people "are called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those that are in authority..."  So we turn it over to be handled by those that are called to handle and deal with it.  This can sometimes be hard, but this life is about being tested, about seeing if we have the faith and trust in Christ, even when we have issues with the church.

In the Government if you have issues with how it is handling things you need to get the voice of the people behind in an wanting that change so you need to get the word out, until you either and elect a supportive representative, or pull an existing representative to your cause.

Two totally different organization setups and totally different methods of dealing with issues.

Now the church is very clear to us that it wants us to be engaged in the governmental process.  This includes members supporting candidates as individuals

Sister Beck supported Trump as an individual, the only church connection was that she was a highly respected church person.

Sister Chamberlain objected to a church action (Choir singing).  The correct course of action for Sister Chamberlain was up through the leaders called by the church.  I don't know if she ever did this and I wouldn't know...  but now it is moot... Because she lost faith that God guides and controls his church, and crossed over to political methods to try to force God's church to do what she wants.  And that is a big problem.   How do we know this... because she went public.

 

 

 

[NightSG]

On 12/30/2016 at 9:05 PM, zil said:

It's called brainwashing, and all but a very small percentage are susceptible to it (you cannot brainwash someone who is clinically OCD - at least, that was the last research I read).

Unfortunately, the last solid research was done by the Nazis.  Nobody since has been willing to test it fully in a proper research format.

Edited January 3, 2017 by NightSG

[anatess2]

On 12/31/2016 at 10:50 PM, Godless said:

Yes, I see the correlation. I've stated multiple times on this forum that the Obama administration has been too reluctant to acknowledge the link between religious extremism and recent terrorist activity. On the other side of the coin, you have Trump (and Cruz, while we're at it), who seems far too eager to make all Muslims the enemy in the eyes of the American people.  There's a balance between honest recognition of the enemy and dangerous stereotyping/profiling that has yet to be reached in public discourse.

This statement is a by-product of watching too much CNN.  There has NEVER been a time when Trump (nor Cruz who held a tougher stance on Islamic terrorism than Trump) showed that they were far too eager to make ALL Muslims the enemy in the eyes of the American people.

Here's his speech from Dec 8 of 2015.  Well before the first primary election.  Now, I want you to point out from this speech where he expressed hatred for Muslims or where he stated that ALL Muslims are the enemy - without going to CNN commentators for their spin on what he said (he pointed to the press cameras in the beginning of the speech to express his disdain for these spin-masters).  Remember - when he says AMERICANS they include every single American including Muslims and also remember that when he says JIHADIST they are all Muslims.

 

Edited January 3, 2017 by anatess2

[mirkwood]

On ‎1‎/‎1‎/‎2017 at 6:33 PM, ldsister said:

just as the singer's right to quit and openly announce why without being accused of underhanded motives should also remain intact. 

 

She had to put into a lottery to be one of the members of MoTab to participate in the event.  She could have not put in for it since she did not want to participate.  Instead she took the chance she would get selected and then makes this 15 minutes of fame move.  Yea, no underhanded motives there, right?

[a mustard seed]

When I first heard about this, I read a couple Deseret articles about it and it mentioned that Donald Trump Jr. visited the Temple Square and was "intrigued" by the Mormon Tabernacle's construction and he was no doubt the cause behind the suggestion/scouting of the choir for the inauguration. I don't know, from the quote they had from him in the article, it sounded like a prompting of the spirit. Not anything grand or life-changing it seems...but he might have kept that part private if he did feel that way, you know? I just thought how even singing American songs, the representation of the church there, even the minor influence of their voices could be something good, especially if the president elect is so in need of Godly guidance as people seem to imply with their criticisms. How could bringing the spirit(even just by setting an example of neutrality and peacemakers) to the inauguration be a bad thing?

I don't really have anything to say about whether or not this sister was "right" or "wrong" to represent herself and her opinions in such a way but I don't really understand the animosity and how she can think she's above Trump in any way when she can't even sing in the spirit of forgiveness and charity for him. Even if they were going to go sing for the actual Hitler, if I were in the choir, I'd be fasting and praying that our voices softened the heart of this man, or at the very least, the national scale of his followers who would be listening in the crowd and on TV. I'd be praying to an end to the contention and the divisiveness even as I do now.

[Traveler]

I have not read all this thread but for the most part – I do not believe this whole storyline. 

First off - not all the choir is going – just selected individuals.  Many that want to go have not been asked – I am not sure from the articles if this lady was really even asked to go.

Secondly – Singing in the choir is a unique calling – those in the choir do not have other callings.  This is a refusal to fulfill a calling – not just asking to be released.  I doubt this lady will ever be allowed to sing with the choir again – or even try out.  It is not just a refusal to fulfill a calling it is demonizing anyone in the choir that respects their calling and desires to serve G-d through a prophetic call.  This person could have declined in a polite and respectful way

The choir has performed at several presidential inaugurations of both political parties.

 

There is something else going on here that is being left out of the published stories.    I do not know what it is – but whatever it is, it does not smell good or sparkle as someone desiring to be Christ like and an example or compassion and kindness.  It looks more like a Pharisee wrapped in the kind of prejudice that believed that if anyone talked to a Samaritan that they were unworthy to enter Synagogue for a week.

 

The Traveler

[anatess2]

12 hours ago, a mustard seed said:

When I first heard about this, I read a couple Deseret articles about it and it mentioned that Donald Trump Jr. visited the Temple Square and was "intrigued" by the Mormon Tabernacle's construction and he was no doubt the cause behind the suggestion/scouting of the choir for the inauguration. I don't know, from the quote they had from him in the article, it sounded like a prompting of the spirit. Not anything grand or life-changing it seems...but he might have kept that part private if he did feel that way, you know? I just thought how even singing American songs, the representation of the church there, even the minor influence of their voices could be something good, especially if the president elect is so in need of Godly guidance as people seem to imply with their criticisms. How could bringing the spirit(even just by setting an example of neutrality and peacemakers) to the inauguration be a bad thing?

I don't really have anything to say about whether or not this sister was "right" or "wrong" to represent herself and her opinions in such a way but I don't really understand the animosity and how she can think she's above Trump in any way when she can't even sing in the spirit of forgiveness and charity for him. Even if they were going to go sing for the actual Hitler, if I were in the choir, I'd be fasting and praying that our voices softened the heart of this man, or at the very least, the national scale of his followers who would be listening in the crowd and on TV. I'd be praying to an end to the contention and the divisiveness even as I do now.

 

I'm more willing to bet that Trump chose the MoTab to perform because the guy he most like to emulate - Ronald Reagan - had them on his inauguration parade and Reagan gave glowing praise to their rendition of Battle Hymn of the Republic at that event.

[NightSG]

2 hours ago, Traveler said:

Secondly – Singing in the choir is a unique calling – those in the choir do not have other callings.  This is a refusal to fulfill a calling – not just asking to be released.

More to the point, it's a public tantrum about one relatively small aspect of a calling.  Especially with it not being the full choir, I can't imagine there being any issue if she'd simply gone to the appropriate person and said "I would really like to sit this one event out."

[prisonchaplain]

16 hours ago, mirkwood said:

 

She had to put into a lottery to be one of the members of MoTab to participate in the event.  She could have not put in for it since she did not want to participate.  Instead she took the chance she would get selected and then makes this 15 minutes of fame move.  Yea, no underhanded motives there, right?

I'd love to hear from the lady's supporters, because this clinches the deal for me. If she intentionally put in to participate in the choir's inaugural performance, and then used her position to refuse participating, THEN it would seem an intentional use of the church choir's popularity to broadcast a personal political position.  In fairness, was the lottery before the election or after?  If before, then the lady might rightly say she never though Trump would be elected (RealClearPolitics had his chances at about 13%).

[Guest MormonGator]

6 minutes ago, prisonchaplain said:

I'd love to hear from the lady's supporters, because this clinches the deal for me. If she intentionally put in to participate in the choir's inaugural performance, and then used her position to refuse participating, THEN it would seem an intentional use of the church choir's popularity to broadcast a personal political position.  In fairness, was the lottery before the election or after?  If before, then the lady might rightly say she never though Trump would be elected (RealClearPolitics had his chances at about 13%).

I was a supporter until I read about this. It's obvious that she manipulated the entire thing in order to prove something. 

I was/am a supporter of anyone in the choir who chooses not to sing at his inauguration and does so in a respectful way.  

Edited January 4, 2017 by MormonGator

[Vort]

35 minutes ago, prisonchaplain said:

I'd love to hear from the lady's supporters, because this clinches the deal for me. If she intentionally put in to participate in the choir's inaugural performance, and then used her position to refuse participating, THEN it would seem an intentional use of the church choir's popularity to broadcast a personal political position.  In fairness, was the lottery before the election or after?  If before, then the lady might rightly say she never though Trump would be elected (RealClearPolitics had his chances at about 13%).

I would be willing to wager large sums of money that the Clinton campaign never contacted the Mormon Tabernacle Choir about potentially singing at Clinton's inauguration. It is certain in my mind that the contact was made by Tump's people post-election.

[mirkwood]

Oh and my source is a friend who is in MoTab.

[NeuroTypical]

I remember watching Pres. Clinton's inauguration party and blowout blast fiesta lollapalooza.  I remember thinking vaguely about how it wasn't exactly the most dignified way to assume the mantle of the leader of the free world, but whatever.  The nation wanted to celebrate, and celebrate they did.  

Glad to hear MoTab is going to classy-up the place this time around.  It is more to my liking than this.

[Maureen]

4 hours ago, Traveler said:

...Secondly – Singing in the choir is a unique calling – those in the choir do not have other callings.  This is a refusal to fulfill a calling – not just asking to be released.  I doubt this lady will ever be allowed to sing with the choir again – or even try out.  It is not just a refusal to fulfill a calling it is demonizing anyone in the choir that respects their calling and desires to serve G-d through a prophetic call...

Singers who wish to join the Motab choir must apply and audition for a choir position.

How does a singer join the Mormon Tabernacle Choir?

The Choir accepts applications for new singers from July 1 to August 15 every year. Before members join the Choir, they undergo a rigorous audition process consisting of three phases, which take place over approximately six months. Prospective Choir members must also be active members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, be recommended by their bishops, and live within 100 miles of Temple Square in Salt Lake City. Applicants must be between 25 and 55 years of age. Tenure in the Choir is 20 years or until age 60, whichever comes first.

In the first step of the audition process, applicants submit an unaccompanied recording of a song selected by the music director. The second stage of the audition, a musical skills test, measures musical ability and aptitude. Applicants with an acceptable test score then advance to the third stage, where they perform a hymn of their choice, sight-read a piece of music, and test their vocal range in person before the music director and associate music director.

Even after selections of new singers are made, the evaluation process is not quite complete. The selected singers are brought into the Temple Square Chorale for a four-month period during which they attend musical training classes and sing with the Chorale. If they successfully complete the training program, they become members of the Mormon Tabernacle Choir.

https://www.mormontabernaclechoir.org/about/faqs.html#join

This is my view on how this event has unfolded - The Motab was invited to sing at Trump's inauguration and they accepted. Jan Chamberlin, a member of the choir, did not agree with this acceptance to sing for Trump as did many other LDS members and so she resigned from the Motab choir completely, not just for this event. She is no longer a member of the choir. She announced her decision on her FB page and the reasons why, which may seem a bit over the top, but she's entitled to her feelings. FB is social media and somewhat public depending on how a person sets it up; or in some cases don't know they have the ability to make their pages public or private.  I believe her FB page is down now, and I speculate that she took it down because she was getting hateful replies to her announcement. I doubt she had malicious ulterior motives for writing her feelings on her own FB page. I doubt very much that because this one ex-choir member feels this way, that that gives the impression the majority of the choir feels this way.

M.

[prisonchaplain]

I searched for a secular, liberal source that reported on the story. BTW, there were many.  It seems clear to me that Sis. Jan was very motivated to get her political objections publicized.  She considered simply skipping the event, but said she could not look herself in the mirror by only doing that.  This was no private little objection that became an accidental viral news story. She got very much what she wanted, imho.

http://www.rollingstone.com/music/news/mormon-tabernacle-singer-quits-choir-over-trump-inauguration-w458429

[Just_A_Guy]

27 minutes ago, Maureen said:

Singers who wish to join the Motab choir must apply and audition for a choir position.

How does a singer join the Mormon Tabernacle Choir?

The Choir accepts applications for new singers from July 1 to August 15 every year. Before members join the Choir, they undergo a rigorous audition process consisting of three phases, which take place over approximately six months. Prospective Choir members must also be active members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, be recommended by their bishops, and live within 100 miles of Temple Square in Salt Lake City. Applicants must be between 25 and 55 years of age. Tenure in the Choir is 20 years or until age 60, whichever comes first.

In the first step of the audition process, applicants submit an unaccompanied recording of a song selected by the music director. The second stage of the audition, a musical skills test, measures musical ability and aptitude. Applicants with an acceptable test score then advance to the third stage, where they perform a hymn of their choice, sight-read a piece of music, and test their vocal range in person before the music director and associate music director.

Even after selections of new singers are made, the evaluation process is not quite complete. The selected singers are brought into the Temple Square Chorale for a four-month period during which they attend musical training classes and sing with the Chorale. If they successfully complete the training program, they become members of the Mormon Tabernacle Choir.

https://www.mormontabernaclechoir.org/about/faqs.html#join

This is my view on how this event has unfolded - The Motab was invited to sing at Trump's inauguration and they accepted. Jan Chamberlin, a member of the choir, did not agree with this acceptance to sing for Trump as did many other LDS members and so she resigned from the Motab choir completely, not just for this event. She is no longer a member of the choir. She announced her decision on her FB page and the reasons why, which may seem a bit over the top, but she's entitled to her feelings. FB is social media and somewhat public depending on how a person sets it up; or in some cases don't know they have the ability to make their pages public or private.  I believe her FB page is down now, and I speculate that she took it down because she was getting hateful replies to her announcement. I doubt she had malicious ulterior motives for writing her feelings on her own FB page. I doubt very much that because this one ex-choir member feels this way, that that gives the impression the majority of the choir feels this way.

M.

FWIW:  IIRC you audition but, once accepted, you are called and "set apart" to the position much like a missionary.

[Maureen]

Who's the Motab choir member on the forum? Is it @bytor2112?

M.

[Just_A_Guy]

1 hour ago, Maureen said:

Who's the Motab choir member on the forum? Is it @bytor2112?

M.

@HiJolly.

[Maureen]

5 hours ago, prisonchaplain said:

I searched for a secular, liberal source that reported on the story. BTW, there were many.  It seems clear to me that Sis. Jan was very motivated to get her political objections publicized.  She considered simply skipping the event, but said she could not look herself in the mirror by only doing that.  This was no private little objection that became an accidental viral news story. She got very much what she wanted, imho.

http://www.rollingstone.com/music/news/mormon-tabernacle-singer-quits-choir-over-trump-inauguration-w458429

From what I can tell, Chamberlin made her feelings known through email, FB and change.org  (which you can share with people you typically know). The news outlets seem to have gotten this information from these sources, not from her directly. PC, do you object to this ex-choir member voicing her very passionate opinion, even on social media?

M.

[prisonchaplain]

@Maureen This is not a court of law in which "evidence beyond a shadow of a doubt" is required. It's possible you are right, and she only meant to share her objections within her tight circle of influence. However, the preponderance of evidence suggests to many here that the ex-choir member was deeply opposed to Trump's candidacy, and saw the choir's performance as her opportunity to broadcast that view far and wide.

BTW, FWIW, if I were a choir member I'd have been honored to sing for Trump or HRC. 

Edited January 5, 2017 by prisonchaplain

[prisonchaplain]

2 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

@HiJolly.

I wondered if it was him.  He was nice enough to pick me up at the SLC Airport, when I had a layover, and give me a personal tour of the Conference Center, and a few surrounding points of interest.  Please send him my regards next time you're in touch.  :-)