Gender Identification - NO HATE!

[anatess2]

17 minutes ago, Anddenex said:

Are you referring to this statement of mine, "Hermaphrodites"? I am not understanding what you mean by "ambiguous" genitalia?

There are more than just hermaphrodites.  There's also pseudo-harmaphrodites or some that you just can't tell what it is.  In the US, they run tests to determine chromosomes and "make" genitalia accordingly through surgery.  Otherwise, you wait until puberty to see what dominates.  Even then, there are cases when even puberty is not conclusive.  In any case, the baby grows up just following the gender the doctor (or parents) assigned to them.  But since we don't do those things in the Philippines, you grow up with it with all the jumbled organs and chems and psychological impact that has.

In any case... ambiguous genitalia opens up the possibility that the gonadal tissue doesn't necessarily determine spirit gender when the psychological make-up does not support it.  You might say... but but but the psychology IS the Spirit.  That's why I mentioned my challenges with IED.  My psychology does not necessarily mean it IS my Spirit.  It is just another mortal state.

Edited January 24, 2017 by anatess2

[Anddenex]

Just now, anatess2 said:

There are more than just hermaphrodites.  There's also pseudo-harmaphrodites or some that you just can't tell what it is.  In the US, they run tests to determine levels of chems that is more dominant and "make" genitalia accordingly through surgery.  So the baby grows up just following the gender the doctor (or parents) assigned to them.  We don't do those things in the Philippines.  You're born with it, you grow up with it with all the jumbled organs and chems and psychological impact that has.

In any case... ambiguous genitalia opens up the possibility that the physical genitalia doesn't necessarily determine spirit gender.

They fall into the same category as hermaphrodites, which is different than people who are easily identified as male/female have male/female spirits within them, and I have more compassion for these individuals especially in our world of confused gender identity and the wide acceptance of it. These individuals I leave to 2 Nephi 2:24 and his compassion and love for all his children.

If the body is easily identified as "male" then they have a "male" spirit. I haven't heard any convincing argument otherwise to lead me to believe/accept any other way.

[anatess2]

4 minutes ago, Anddenex said:

They fall into the same category as hermaphrodites, which is different than people who are easily identified as male/female have male/female spirits within them, and I have more compassion for these individuals especially in our world of confused gender identity and the wide acceptance of it. These individuals I leave to 2 Nephi 2:24 and his compassion and love for all his children.

If the body is easily identified as "male" then they have a "male" spirit. I haven't heard any convincing argument otherwise to lead me to believe/accept any other way.

I updated my post.  Reference to psychological in conflict with physical.  Which is exactly what we are talking about in this post.

[Anddenex]

15 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

I updated my post.  Reference to psychological in conflict with physical.  Which is exactly what we are talking about in this post.

We appear to understand concepts differently here. Our human soul is spirit (intelligence and gender identity), body, and emotion. What you are referring to as "psychological" I would refer to as "emotion" (psychology I don't see as spirit but a natural part of connected with body). I wouldn't consider what you are experiencing in the same light as gender identity and if a male spirit is placed in a female body (or vice-versa).

Edited January 24, 2017 by Anddenex
The body changed to human soul for clarification

[The Folk Prophet]

Asking for thoughts on such a matter but adding a condition whereby no one can deal with the potential reality of the situation makes the entire discussion likely pretty useless. The more we bury our heads in the sand over gender issues the more we just hurt ourselves as a society.

[anatess2]

19 minutes ago, Anddenex said:

We appear to understand concepts differently here. The body is spirit (intelligence and gender identity), body, and emotion. What you are referring to as "psychological" I would refer to as "emotion". I wouldn't consider what you are experiencing in the same light as gender identity and if a male spirit is placed in a female body (or vice-versa).

Okay.  Our Spirits in pre-mortal existence joined mortal bodies.  Intelligence is of the Spirit.  The body is composed of physical and psychological (emotions included, it goes beyond just emotions but also base desires, etc. Mental Health is a growing field in medicine and we're learning a lot of new things with it).  Therefore, a conflict between the physical (gonadal tissue, xy chromosomes, level of testosterone or whatever) and the psychological (sexual attraction, sexual desire, mannerisms, etc. etc.) can be considered gender ambiguous as the physiology (the total mortal body) does not point to a specific gender.  What you're saying is that the gonadal tissue determines spirit gender which is only one part of the physiology of the mortal body.

Sure, it might be the case that the physical make-up is the spirit gender, the psychology is just a challenge to that gender.  I understand that.  I'm simply stating that I'm open to the possibility that the psychological make-up may point to the spirit gender that is then challenged by the conflicting physical state.

 

Edited January 24, 2017 by anatess2

[Mike]

1 hour ago, skalenfehl said:

"My sheep hear my voice." 

I sympathize with the OP's friend. We all have personal issues. We are all fallen. We are all mortal. We must all carry our cross and bear one another's burdens. If one loves Christ, one will follow Him. 

I'll drink to that.

[Guest]

Can anyone here tell me what it means to have a "female spirit" or a "male spirit"?  I was never under the impression that spirits really had gender.  I'm sure many of us knew what we were going to be assigned in life.  But apart from that what the heck is that supposed to even mean?  What is the scriptural basis for such a position?

I have no idea what it's supposed to mean when someone says,"I'm a man in a woman's body" or vice versa.  You can't have the same people crying out for gender neutrality and believing THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE between male and female and then turn around and say something like "but I'm really a woman in a man's body."

So, what exactly is this supposed to mean?

Edited January 24, 2017 by Guest

[Anddenex]

12 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

Okay.  Our Spirits in pre-mortal existence joined mortal bodies.  Intelligence is of the Spirit.  The body is composed of physical and psychological (emotions included, it goes beyond just emotions but also base desires, etc. Mental Health is a growing field in medicine and we're learning a lot of new things with it).  Therefore, a conflict between the physical (gonadal tissue, xy chromosomes, level of testosterone or whatever) and the psychological (sexual attraction, sexual desire, mannerisms, etc. etc.) can be considered gender ambiguous as the physiology (the total mortal body) does not point to a specific gender.  What you're saying is that the gonadal tissue determines spirit gender which is only one part of the physiology of the mortal body.

Sure, it might be the case that the physical make-up is the spirit gender, the psychology is just a challenge to that gender.  I understand that.  I'm simply stating that I'm open to the possibility that the psychological make-up may point to the spirit gender that is then challenged by the physical state.

This is what I am stating, "Gender is an essential characteristic of individual premortal, mortal, and eternal identity and purpose." Gender is identified by our spirit and mortal body. My father is my father because of his spirit and anatomy. My mother is my mother because of her spirit and her body. Our Heavenly Father is male. Our Heavenly Mother is female. There gender is essential and we are able to identify easily "male" and "female" by their anatomy, which reverts back to my original statement, "If the body is easily identified as "male" then they have a "male" spirit. I haven't heard any convincing argument otherwise to lead me to believe/accept any other way." (we have already discussed individuals where the body is not easily identifiable).

Spirit gender was already determined as intelligences before we received a mortal body. My body is male. I have a male spirit. I have male gonads, so yes, I am male. We already discussed hermaphrodites and what you consider ambiguous bodies, which I leave up to God and have more compassion for and leave again them to 2 Nephi 2:24.

I would disagree that psychology points to spirit gender challenged by physical state. I don't see "psychology" pointing to any spirit (as psychology would be in the realm of "emotion"). The argument of "psychology pointing to spirit identity" is, for me, a slippery slope, where do you stop it?

[Anddenex]

14 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Can anyone here tell me what it means to have a "female spirit" or a "male spirit"?  I was never under the impression that spirits really had gender.  I'm sure many of us knew what we were going to be assigned in life.  But apart from that what the heck is that supposed to even mean?  And what scriptural support is there for such a notion?

The brother of Jared saw the Spirit of the Lord (his intelligence) as a male spirit, or saw the body he would take in similitude of his spirit.

This shocks me a little, as it appears pretty clear from scripture that all our spirits had gender, as in the Old Testament there are councils in heaven where the sons of God (who had not taken bodies, but were identified as sons (male)) did meet. If not, then gender is not an essential characteristic of our "premortal, mortal, and eternal identity and purpose." (emphasis added)

Further more, "In the premortal realm, spirit sons and daughters knew and worshipped God as their Eternal Father and accepted His plan by which His children could obtain a physical body and gain earthly experience to progress toward perfection and ultimately realize their divine destiny as heirs of eternal life."

We worshipped God as "spirit sons and daughters" who knew and worshipped God. Our gender wasn't assigned, our gender has always been. Jesus Christ wasn't assigned to be a male, he was male like our Father in heaven -- always.

Edited January 24, 2017 by Anddenex

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, Anddenex said:

The brother of Jared saw the Spirit of the Lord (his intelligence) as a male spirit, or saw the body he would take in similitude of his spirit.

This shocks me a little, as it appears pretty clear from scripture that all our spirits had gender, as in the Old Testament there are councils in heaven where the sons of God (who had not taken bodies, but were identified as sons (male)) did meet. If not, then gender is not an essential characteristic of our "premortal, mortal, and eternal identity and purpose." (emphasis added)

Further more, "In the premortal realm, spirit sons and daughters knew and worshipped God as their Eternal Father and accepted His plan by which His children could obtain a physical body and gain earthly experience to progress toward perfection and ultimately realize their divine destiny as heirs of eternal life."

We worshipped God as "spirit sons and daughters" who knew and worshipped God. Our gender wasn't assigned, our gender has always been. Jesus Christ wasn't assigned to be a male, he was male like our Father in heaven -- always.

I'm aware of all those phrases.  And I have other ways of interpreting them which are perfectly in line with many other concepts in the gospel.  While I leave the door open to the idea that our spirits have gender, I'm just not getting it in the same sense that the OP is talking about it.  There is a difference in the phrasing above vs the idea that a "female spirit" is placed into a (whatever) body".

[NeuroTypical]

https://www.lds.org/topics/family-proclamation?lang=eng

ALL HUMAN BEINGS—male and female—are created in the image of God. Each is a beloved spirit son or daughter of heavenly parents, and, as such, each has a divine nature and destiny. Gender is an essential characteristic of individual premortal, mortal, and eternal identity and purpose.

[Anddenex]

12 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

I'm aware of all those phrases.  And I have other ways of interpreting them which are perfectly in line with many other concepts in the gospel.  While I leave the door open to the idea that our spirits have gender, I'm just not getting it in the same sense that the OP is talking about it.  There is a difference in the phrasing above vs the idea that a "female spirit" is placed into a (whatever) body".

This is one aspect I love about God and his gospel and a truth that agency is concrete. We have the ability to dive into aspects that intrigue or give us further thought.

[anatess2]

53 minutes ago, Anddenex said:

This is what I am stating, "Gender is an essential characteristic of individual premortal, mortal, and eternal identity and purpose." Gender is identified by our spirit and mortal body. My father is my father because of his spirit and anatomy. My mother is my mother because of her spirit and her body. Our Heavenly Father is male. Our Heavenly Mother is female. There gender is essential and we are able to identify easily "male" and "female" by their anatomy, which reverts back to my original statement, "If the body is easily identified as "male" then they have a "male" spirit. I haven't heard any convincing argument otherwise to lead me to believe/accept any other way." (we have already discussed individuals where the body is not easily identifiable).

Spirit gender was already determined as intelligences before we received a mortal body. My body is male. I have a male spirit. I have male gonads, so yes, I am male. We already discussed hermaphrodites and what you consider ambiguous bodies, which I leave up to God and have more compassion for and leave again them to 2 Nephi 2:24.

I would disagree that psychology points to spirit gender challenged by physical state. I don't see "psychology" pointing to any spirit (as psychology would be in the realm of "emotion"). The argument of "psychology pointing to spirit identity" is, for me, a slippery slope, where do you stop it?

If your only concern for not considering psychological as an identifier of gender is the slippery slope, then that's an easy thing. 

Yes, my mother is female, my father is male.  They're not conflicted.  But yes, my cousin is male who became a Catholic priest because he doesn't have the psychology to support it so he found solace in celibacy and dedicating his entire life to service to the Catholic Church.  He, until today, doesn't believe he is male.  You might think - he's confused!  His gonads tell him he is male!  Well, sure, if you're Catholic where gender is a mortal descriptor and has no eternal consequence.

So, where's the slippery slope stop?  In Revelation.  It's that simple.  If you get personal revelation of your spiritual gender seeking humbly and honestly with pure intent (in the same manner that you received a testimony that the LDS Church is true) then, that's your revelation.  It doesn't change your role in God's House as far as your callings, your qualifications for marriage, your priesthood, etc., as those go beyond personal revelation to Bishopric revelation and even Prophetic revelation with the proper priesthood keys to which the Prophets state whether you qualify for priesthood or not.  Like anything else, your personal revelation does not give you license to go against God's House of Order unless you have the proper keys that go with it.

 

Edited January 24, 2017 by anatess2

[Fether]

"All living things—mankind, animals, and plants—were spirits before any form of life existed upon the earth (Gen. 2:4–5; Moses 3:4–7). The spirit body looks like the physical body (1 Ne. 11:11; Ether 3:15–16; D&C 77:2; 129). Spirit is matter, but it is more fine or pure than mortal element or matter (D&C 131:7)." - LDS.org definition of 'spirit'

 

a spirit isnt just a wisp floating around, it is an actual physical being. The spirit body looks exactly like our body, that includes the gender specifying parts. I don't believe God "put us" in a body, I believe it is just the natural law if things to developed a body that looks like our spirit. If this is not the case, how is it that Joseph smith recognized his brother Alvin as a spirit in his vision? Or Brigham young recognize Joseph smith in his visions? One could argue they formed themselves to look like the way they were when they died, but then that opens up all sorts of possible tricks of the adversary and goes against the quoye above.

Any justification towards gender indentification is dangerous and will only lead to heart ache. Gods stance towards marriage and sexual relations is very clear and any deviation is a sin.

i also know multiple LDSs who are homosexual but choose to live a heterosexual life. It isn't impossible

Edited January 24, 2017 by Fether

[anatess2]

23 minutes ago, Fether said:

"All living things—mankind, animals, and plants—were spirits before any form of life existed upon the earth (Gen. 2:4–5; Moses 3:4–7). The spirit body looks like the physical body (1 Ne. 11:11; Ether 3:15–16; D&C 77:2; 129). Spirit is matter, but it is more fine or pure than mortal element or matter (D&C 131:7)." - LDS.org definition of 'spirit'

 

a spirit isnt just a wisp floating around, it is an actual physical being. The spirit body looks exactly like our body, that includes the gender specifying parts. I don't believe God "put us" in a body, I believe it is just the natural law if things to developed a body that looks like our spirit. If this is not the case, how is it that Joseph smith recognized his brother Alvin as a spirit in his vision? Or Brigham young recognize Joseph smith in his visions? One could argue they formed themselves to look like the way they were when they died, but then that opens up all sorts of possible tricks of the adversary and goes against the quoye above.

Any justification towards gender indentification is dangerous and will only lead to heart ache. Gods stance towards marriage and sexual relations is very clear and any deviation is a sin.

i also know multiple LDSs who are homosexual but choose to live a heterosexual life. It isn't impossible

Well, that sucks for those kids who are born without identifying genitals... their spirits would be just as confused then...

Okay, okay, I'm not going for arguments here.  I'm simply chafing at the rigidness of the discussion that leaves no room for those who do not fit the generalities.  Yes, there are kids born without the normal identifying genitals.  It is sad to consider that their spirits are just as ambiguous.

 

[Fether]

37 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

Well, that sucks for those kids who are born without identifying genitals... their spirits would be just as confused then...

Okay, okay, I'm not going for arguments here.  I'm simply chafing at the rigidness of the discussion that leaves no room for those who do not fit the generalities.  Yes, there are kids born without the normal identifying genitals.  It is sad to consider that their spirits are just as ambiguous.

 

When I said those things, I was referencing te idea that god puts male spirits in female bodies (visa versa) and and justification towards homosexuality. But it didn't occure to me that people were born without either part. If that is true than that does put a hole in my arguement.

but I do standby the arguement that God does not "put us" in bodies, but rather they form according to our spirits. With all that is being discussed, perhaps in the forming process, abnormalities can form????

Edited January 24, 2017 by Fether

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Fether said:

"All living things—mankind, animals, and plants—were spirits before any form of life existed upon the earth (Gen. 2:4–5; Moses 3:4–7). The spirit body looks like the physical body (1 Ne. 11:11; Ether 3:15–16; D&C 77:2; 129). Spirit is matter, but it is more fine or pure than mortal element or matter (D&C 131:7)." - LDS.org definition of 'spirit'

That's a pretty huge logical leap to go from "looks like" to "has gender defining parts".  The Nephi reference and the Ether reference would both refute that was the intent of the passages.

Edited January 24, 2017 by Guest

[Fether]

Personal rebuttals! Maybe God does put us in a body...

"the eternal spirit enters the body prior to a normal birth, and therefore that stillborn children will be resurrected" - Bruce R McConkie

and not to mention we look like our parents... how does that line up with our spirits looking like our bodies seeing how we have existed for eternity but physical traits weren't developed till earth life??? Did everyone of us all look exactly the same prior to birth??? 

I don't even know... I'm just ganna leave this discussion x)

Edited January 24, 2017 by Fether

[Fether]

14 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

That's a pretty huge logical leap to go from "looks like" to "has gender defining parts".  The Nephi reference and the Ether reference would both refute that was the intent of the passages.

Regardless if we had the male or female sexual organs are there or not (don't know why they wouldn't be cause we were created spiritually before physically (Moses 3:5)), our gender is eternal. Im a man now, was before birth and will be after death.

"Our gender was established before we were born into mortality and is an essential characteristic of our eternal identity." - Institute Eternal families Teacher Manual

Edited January 24, 2017 by Fether

[Anddenex]

1 hour ago, anatess2 said:

If your only concern for not considering psychological as an identifier of gender is the slippery slope, then that's an easy thing. 

Yes, my mother is female, my father is male.  They're not conflicted.  But yes, my cousin is male who became a Catholic priest because he doesn't have the psychology to support it so he found solace in celibacy and dedicating his entire life to service to the Catholic Church.  He, until today, doesn't believe he is male.  You might think - he's confused!  His gonads tell him he is male!  Well, sure, if you're Catholic where gender is a mortal descriptor and has no eternal consequence.

So, where's the slippery slope stop?  In Revelation.  It's that simple.  If you get personal revelation of your spiritual gender seeking humbly and honestly with pure intent (in the same manner that you received a testimony that the LDS Church is true) then, that's your revelation.  It doesn't change your role in God's House as far as your callings, your qualifications for marriage, your priesthood, etc., as those go beyond personal revelation to Bishopric revelation and even Prophetic revelation with the proper priesthood keys to which the Prophets state whether you qualify for priesthood or not.  Like anything else, your personal revelation does not give you license to go against God's House of Order unless you have the proper keys that go with it.

 

This is more difficult conversation as the conversation now becomes personal in mentioning a specific cousin (please note, which I am sure you already know, I am not attacking cousin). In this example, I would clarify the difference between "psychology" of cousin and "gender" of cousin. They are not one in the same. We have brothers and sisters who "psychology" (emotions) feel they are gay, and are still true to their gender (male/female). If his gonads are clearly male, and he feels "psychology" that he is not male then yes, he is confused. He is male. He has a male spirit. His "feeling" (psychology, emotions) are not determining factors. We are able to "psychologically" feel many ways contrary to what is.

If an individual is "male" and believes they have received confirmation from the Lord that they are "female" -- they better be right -- otherwise they are condemning themselves should they act upon their feelings. If they are truly a "female" spirit inside a man's physical body (hypothetical) then yes it does change their callings, their qualifications for marriage, priesthood, etc... As our gender plays an important role as to who we are and what we become. If our physical body changes (which adds a whole new concept to the notion corruption to incorruption) from male to female resurrected body, then yes, there are changes to roles as gender defines roles premortally, mortally, and eternally.

We need to have compassion. We need to love. Love as defined by God not human psychology that is turning into a lack of "opposition." 

[Mike]

2 hours ago, Carborendum said:

I'm aware of all those phrases.  And I have other ways of interpreting them which are perfectly in line with many other concepts in the gospel.  While I leave the door open to the idea that our spirits have gender, I'm just not getting it in the same sense that the OP is talking about it.  There is a difference in the phrasing above vs the idea that a "female spirit" is placed into a (whatever) body".

Earlier @NeuroTypical mentioned "Gender is an essential characteristic of individual premortal, mortal, and eternal identity and purpose." from The Family: A Proclamation to the World. I would think that for any member of the LDS faith there would be nothing to interpret in terms of whether spirits are male and/or female. The only choice would be to believe it or disbelieve it. Do  you disagree?

Help me to understand what you mean by there being a difference between the phrase above and the idea that a female (or male for that matter) spirit is placed into a body.  I'm not seeking a debate. I'm merely seeking to understand, or to apprehend how I may have misunderstood your remarks.

[lostinwater]

4 hours ago, Mike said:

Earlier @NeuroTypical mentioned "Gender is an essential characteristic of individual premortal, mortal, and eternal identity and purpose." from The Family: A Proclamation to the World. I would think that for any member of the LDS faith there would be nothing to interpret in terms of whether spirits are male and/or female. The only choice would be to believe it or disbelieve it. Do  you disagree?

Help me to understand what you mean by there being a difference between the phrase above and the idea that a female (or male for that matter) spirit is placed into a body.  I'm not seeking a debate. I'm merely seeking to understand, or to apprehend how I may have misunderstood your remarks.

Thank-you.  I'll respond to this one as I feel it encapsulates most of the viewpoints which are opposite to my own.  And those viewpoints are valuable to me - i genuinely mean that.

I guess I fail to see how one can construct an immutable refutation of my friend's point of view based on this statement, given, among other things, the presence of hermaphrodites (people born with a mixture of male and female sex organs).  I guess you could say that such exceptions are allowable only for people whose gender conflict is manifested in a way that is currently visible to science and our naked eye.  But surely, such exceptions have to be made, right?  And we're talking about 1 in 2000 births - at least 3.5 million people on this earth (just right now).

I mean, we have people born without arms, people born with 3 arms, people born without legs, people born with 3 legs.  Heck, i mean you want to read something interesting.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2147778/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19155947

I am trying to understand, but i just fail to see how the whole 'you are created exactly as you were meant to be' argument holds any water.  People spontaneously impregnating themselves?  What gender are they?

Given that this life compared against the eternal timeline lasts perhaps a few minutes, is it really that impossible to believe that there might be a divine reason for a spirit whose gender IS fixed to be clothed in a different body temporarily?

i I get it why this scares people.  It scares and confuses me too.  Maybe the exceptions have to be quiet and suffer to learn what they need to learn and then be made right.  But to declare that such exceptions don't exist in order to maintain our black/white separation seems wrong too. 

i would love to get all thoughts.  And I'll try to do a better job of listening to others point of view.  i already understand my own.

Edited January 25, 2017 by lostinwater

[Guest]

5 hours ago, Mike said:

Earlier @NeuroTypical mentioned "Gender is an essential characteristic of individual premortal, mortal, and eternal identity and purpose." from The Family: A Proclamation to the World. I would think that for any member of the LDS faith there would be nothing to interpret in terms of whether spirits are male and/or female. The only choice would be to believe it or disbelieve it. Do  you disagree?

Help me to understand what you mean by there being a difference between the phrase above and the idea that a female (or male for that matter) spirit is placed into a body.  I'm not seeking a debate. I'm merely seeking to understand, or to apprehend how I may have misunderstood your remarks.

Yes, I've read it and I believe I understand it.  

My position is that I don't understand the notion that we have male or female spirits. (NOTE: I'm not saying I necessarily disagree.  I'm not sure.  But at this point, I don't even understand what it's supposed to mean)  I highly doubt it means that spirits have genitals.  That really doesn't make sense to me.  So what is that supposed to mean?

"characteristics"?  Like what?  

Answer that question and I'll be in a better position to really accept or understand the rest of what everyone is saying about spirits having gender.

Edited January 25, 2017 by Guest

[Just_A_Guy]

11 hours ago, NightSG said:

In all other instances we treat marriage as truly sacred, and we accept that gender is a critical element to a marriage, but then when it's convenient, suddenly we're willing to say the Lord sees it as something to be toyed with as a learning experience.

I sympathize with this argument, but on further reflection I can't think of a single aspect of the human experience that hasn't been "toyed with" in the case of someone, somewhere. 

God doesn't promise us not to butcher any particular sacred cow.  He only promises that in the end all things will have worked together for our good.

Consistency would dictate that we treat such claims as tantamount to saying that someone really needed to commit a murder to progress spiritually.

Like Nephi, you mean?