Gender Identification - NO HATE!

[yjacket]

My thoughts briefly.  There is only one word for it, sin.  We know that the natural man is fallen and that we all have tendencies towards proclivities that are sinful.  

We don't say that the man who likes alcohol is sober challenged or that his spirit must really be a spirit that needs alcohol-no we say it is sin.

We don't say that the man who loves to look at naked women has a spirit who's natural state is that to be his "true" self he must see those things-no we call it sin.

We don't say that the man who lives with his girlfriend, that his true spirit needs to find out if they are really compatible, no we call it sin.

In all other forms of human behavior that does not comport to the revealed characteristics and behavior of the commandments we call it sin.

So why is it that when we come to one of the most basic fundamental sins, (those of sexual nature), we make excuses and say well maybe their "true spirit" is really xyz.  There is no revealed doctrine that can even remotely support those suppositions.  So praytell why can we not as LDS members who are to stand for truth and right call it what it is-sin!

I will answer.  Because too many of us have come to to rely upon another God, a false God.  A false God that in the past 50-60 years has taken over religion and completely replaced the bedrock of society.  It is the false God of psychology.

Because psychologists, not Prophets, but pyschologists have told us that transgender, homosexual, and every other deviant type of behavior isn't sinful (they don't even believe in sin), but it is natural and these poor, poor people don't have anything wrong with them, they are simply just misunderstood.  

As a society, we have come to rely more upon the philosophies of men . . .mingled with scripture rather than upon the revealed Word of God and it will be for our downfall.

No there is no other word for it except sin-the why of the sin for us is unimportant (it maybe important for the individual who commits the sin-but for us it is not-it is sin and should not be done and therefor we should stand against those deviant behaviors).  Now we love the sinner, but not the sin.

So how do we treat sinners-as Christ would treat them.  But make no mistake, society likes to think of Christ as this personage who loved everyone, peace, never said anything hurtful, etc.  That is a serious, serious mistake.  At the appropriate times, Christ was very forceful (I bring a sword, overthrew the moneychangers, condemned the Pharisees, etc) and he never said it's okay that you sin in xyz way.  No He said, go and sin nomore, not it's okay that you sin in that particular way. He came to save us from our sins not in our sins.

So if we are in a position where we should, we firmly and boldly state that certain behaviors are sinful and not of God and we love those who are sinners.  But we should never make excuses for sin. 

[yjacket]

The only ones where I have the utmost compassion for is hermaphrodites as clearly something went awry genetically.  I really feel for those individuals as I feel for other individuals who are born into this world with severe physical deformities and clear mental retardation.  Those individuals will struggle to lead normal lives and God will one day ensure that all is made right.

[anatess2]

8 hours ago, Anddenex said:

This is more difficult conversation as the conversation now becomes personal in mentioning a specific cousin (please note, which I am sure you already know, I am not attacking cousin). In this example, I would clarify the difference between "psychology" of cousin and "gender" of cousin. They are not one in the same. We have brothers and sisters who "psychology" (emotions) feel they are gay, and are still true to their gender (male/female). If his gonads are clearly male, and he feels "psychology" that he is not male then yes, he is confused. He is male. He has a male spirit. His "feeling" (psychology, emotions) are not determining factors. We are able to "psychologically" feel many ways contrary to what is.

If an individual is "male" and believes they have received confirmation from the Lord that they are "female" -- they better be right -- otherwise they are condemning themselves should they act upon their feelings. If they are truly a "female" spirit inside a man's physical body (hypothetical) then yes it does change their callings, their qualifications for marriage, priesthood, etc... As our gender plays an important role as to who we are and what we become. If our physical body changes (which adds a whole new concept to the notion corruption to incorruption) from male to female resurrected body, then yes, there are changes to roles as gender defines roles premortally, mortally, and eternally.

We need to have compassion. We need to love. Love as defined by God not human psychology that is turning into a lack of "opposition." 

I was hoping I could bolden the sentence I'm referring to but for some reason my tablet won't let me do it...

So, I think our differences is hinged on this thinking that a Personal Revelation on one's gender somehow gives one the license to go against Church policies on the matter.  I don't believe this.  One can be right about their eternal gender matching that of their psychological make-up in opposition to their physical make-up but there is still a reason they were given the physical traits that qualify them to... say...  hold the priesthood or not.  This obedience to God's laws in mortality is part of that mortal challenge and they still get to magnify that calling.

i do not believe that God will give personal revelation that is meant to go against the revelations he gives to His Prophets.

Edited January 25, 2017 by anatess2

[Jojo Bags]

On 1/23/2017 at 7:47 PM, lostinwater said:

I have a dear friend who recently told me he considers himself a female.  He dresses like a man, does not demand the use of girl bathrooms, does not march in parades, or demand that people accept him as a female.  In fact, he avoids telling others generally, as he knows it causes them pain.

He just believes that in his spirit, he is female.  He doesn't think that God made a mistake - just that for some reason, God decided he could learn something - or help someone - in this life, with a male body in a way that he wouldn't or couldn't in a female body.  So he is waiting for the next life where he believes God will at last place his spirit in the correct body.  To him, it is a temporary learning experience.

I have to admit, I feel quite certain I wouldn't be the person I am today if he had been placed in a female body.

Regardless, this is all extremely confusing to me - and I feel intensely conflicted.  His humility is not consistent with the internal beliefs concerning transgender people that I am having to re-evaluate.  

I am wondering if you have any similar experiences or thoughts on this subject?  

That said, I request that anyone thinking mean or judgmental thoughts not post them here.  I view no response at all as being preferable to ones that are  devoid of compassion and filled with judgments about the character of my friend.

From the church web site:

Quote

God created us “male and female” (D&C 20:18; Moses 2:27; Gen. 1:27). What we call gender was an essential characteristic of our existence prior to our birth.

This next bit will get many here up in arms, but I have a reputation for being a radical.  Homosexuality is nothing more than being possessed by an evil spirit of the opposite sex.  There is a weakness for it, but it can be controlled and eventually eliminated if the possessing spirit is gone.  Your friend needs to have done to him that was the same thing done to me.  I had my bishop give me a blessing and had him cast out several evil spirits from me.   I felt them leave me and my compulsions, including my own SSA left along with the evil spirits.  I have never suffered from SSA ever since.

[Fether]

2 hours ago, Jojo Bags said:

Homosexuality is nothing more than being possessed by an evil spirit of the opposite sex.  

I can't think of a single doctrinal backing for this.

[priesthoodpower]

Time (science) will reveal whats really going on in the biological make up of human beings. Some argue that there is no gay dna like there is no murder dna or pedophile dna, so is being LGBT a behavior? can behavior be inherited like physical traits and disease are inherited or is our behavior a result of being exposed, manipulated or socialized into any particular social problem, in this case LGBT?

I remember hearing of one particular clinic surveying all their gay clients and almost 90% of those gay males were molested or sexually violated before the age of 12. This is one of the ways a person can go down the path of being sexually confused or gay. The argument coming from the LGBT side that they didnt choose to be that way and that it was nature aka born that way, could possibly be a deterrent from admitting or finding that trigger in their childhood, after all if being LGBT is a behavior and they were born that way then it is the very first behavior in the history of mankind where people don't have a choice.

To the OP. Does your male friend simply have female traits or is he full on homosexual? Whatever the case and if he was born or chose to be that way i believe that it is his trial and he is blessed to have you in his life to support and love him.

I have 3 daughters the oldest and youngest are very feminine and girly (physically and mentally). The middle one looks different physically, she inherited the physical traits of my brother-in-law who is a very big manly type of man and looks like she could be his kid. She did not have a choice of her physical attributes. It doesnt stop there with my middle child. When she was a toddler she did some weird things like stare at my wifes body parts in a weird way that toddlers dont usually do, in kindergarden she always talked about her girl classmates in weird ways that made me raise my eyebrows. In the 1st and 2nd grades she would always try to spy on my oldest daughter while she was changing, my oldest daughter called her a creeper. It crossed my mind that she could possibly grow up to be a lesbian and if she did there is absolutely no influence or exposure in my household that would cause her to be that way, I would adamantly proclaim that she was born that way.

Now that she is 9yrs old and continues to grow up in a house of females where everything was and still is pink I hope that she has grown out of that phase and is not simply suppressing it. I can only imagine if a female child like mine were to be raised in a less than ideal environment where there is abuse and neglect, that could be the trigger that catapults her into that lifestyle. 

 

1 hour ago, Jojo Bags said:

This next bit will get many here up in arms, but I have a reputation for being a radical.  Homosexuality is nothing more than being possessed by an evil spirit of the opposite sex.  There is a weakness for it, but it can be controlled and eventually eliminated if the possessing spirit is gone.  Your friend needs to have done to him that was the same thing done to me.  I had my bishop give me a blessing and had him cast out several evil spirits from me.   I felt them leave me and my compulsions, including my own SSA left along with the evil spirits.  I have never suffered from SSA ever since.

I see what you are saying, I do believe that negative and positive energy affect everything in our lives from our health, finances and sexuality. Time will continue to reveal as we learn more about the human race.

[NightSG]

11 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

I sympathize with this argument, but on further reflection I can't think of a single aspect of the human experience that hasn't been "toyed with" in the case of someone, somewhere.

If someone's defense in court is that God told them to kill their kid, will you vote to acquit on the grounds that Abraham is precedent?  When you have literally thousands of people claiming divine exemption from significant Gospel concepts, it's even tougher to believe.  This isn't "the Spirit told me that a cup of coffee wouldn't make me a bad person," it's "the basic rules of marriage and even of human existence set out from the beginning don't apply to me."

Quote

Like Nephi, you mean?

He killed a man who had stolen from and attempted to kill his family.  While it's not legal under our current system to attack such a person when they're not an immediate threat, it's a lot different from hacking the head off a random stranger.

Edited January 25, 2017 by NightSG

[anatess2]

4 hours ago, priesthoodpower said:

The argument coming from the LGBT side that they didnt choose to be that way and that it was nature aka born that way, could possibly be a deterrent from admitting or finding that trigger in their childhood, after all if being LGBT is a behavior and they were born that way then it is the very first behavior in the history of mankind where people don't have a choice.

I don't subscribe to the "trigger" idea for all cases.  I've had too many experiences with gay people that refutes it.  In the Philippines, gay people have a niche.  For example - we hold Miss Gay pageants every single year in my city.  Also, the popular salons, boutiques, interior designs are run by gay people because a lot of the population prefer gays for those services, etc.  But, we live in a predominantly Catholic country so that although people are accepting of gay people, they get immediately shunned when they turn these tendencies into sexual activity.  I'm telling you this because I have friends and family who are raised in a large devout Catholic family in a devout Catholic town in a devout Catholic country and they are gay.  My cousin is the only gay person in his family.  He became a Catholic priest.  I have a friend I grew up with who we didn't know was gay until one day he confessed to my husband about it.  Still devout Catholic.  Single.  Celibate.  My male classmate who was effiminate since kindergarten is now living as a woman in London with a husband.  Left the Catholic Church of course.

So, I have IED... did I choose to have IED?  Of course not.  So no, LGBT behavior is not the first, nor the only behavior that we are saddled with at birth.  Autism, manic depression among other things are on that same basket.  Now, of course, what I do with my IED is my choice.  Just because I was born with IED doesn't mean it's okay for me to go explode on my husband and kids every time they do something that makes me upset.  Same with LGBT challenges.

So, instead of looking for triggers, your time is better spent just taking LGBT for whatever it is and teaching people coping mechanisms - same as people with Autism learn coping mechanisms - to live a Christ-centered life and find their path to joy.

[Mike]

13 hours ago, lostinwater said:

Thank-you.  I'll respond to this one as I feel it encapsulates most of the viewpoints which are opposite to my own.  And those viewpoints are valuable to me - i genuinely mean that.

 ...I guess I fail to see how one can construct an immutable refutation of my friend's point of view based on this statement...

i would love to get all thoughts.  And I'll try to do a better job of listening to others point of view.  i already understand my own.

I think I owe you an apology. My remarks weren't meant to refute your friend's point of view. But I see how they could be taken that way. Your views as wells as those of @Carborendum and @anatess2 actually dovetail with thoughts I have long pondered. My opinion on these issues is not so cut-and-dried as you might suppose. And like you I am trying to understand.

[anatess2]

1 minute ago, Mike said:

@anatess2

Everytime I see your avatar I see it as a ghost in Pacman.

[Mike]

12 hours ago, Carborendum said:

My position is that I don't understand the notion that we have male or female spirits. (NOTE: I'm not saying I necessarily disagree.  I'm not sure.  But at this point, I don't even understand what it's supposed to mean)  I highly doubt it means that spirits have genitals.  That really doesn't make sense to me.  So what is that supposed to mean?"characteristics"?  Like what?  Answer that question and I'll be in a better position to really accept or understand the rest of what everyone is saying about spirits having gender.

You know, my position is not so dissimilar. I confess that although I have long disbelieved that my body with features I inherited genetically from my parents looks like my spirit, and although I've wondered about questions such as whether a spirit has genitals, a navel, nipples, etc., I never thought to wonder about what it means to say that a spirit itself is male or female until you put it in front of me. Since then I have asked myself, what makes me male besides the gonadal tissues and the associated chemicals? It seems that in this mortal life so much of my personality, my feelings, my talents and weaknesses are at least influenced by chemicals such as those that may cause elation, depression, fear, inability to concentrate, tenderness, toughness, or any number of other characteristics that I feel make me excel and/or fall short. At the moment I really can't tell what makes Mike the mortal being (much less Mike the spiritual being) a male vs. a female--beyond the y-chromosome and the accompanying quantity of testosterone. 

[Mike]

17 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

Everytime I see your avatar I see it as a ghost in Pacman.

I think I'm a lap behind you. I'm baffled.

Edited January 25, 2017 by Mike

[anatess2]

13 minutes ago, Mike said:

I think I'm a lap behind you. I'm baffled.

Sorry, sorry!  Not the ghosts... PACMAN.  Dunno what I was thinking.

[Mike]

@anatess2 Hmmm, I'm officially in the market for a new sunrise avatar.

[Rob Osborn]

I wonder if the whole LGBT epidemic is an indication of a far worse problem. I cant help but to wonder that with morals on the rapid decline, out of marriage wedlock and births, soaring divorce rates, and general child abuse/neglect that we arent socially conditioning our children towards being LGBT?

[Guest MormonGator]

6 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

I wonder if the whole LGBT epidemic is an indication of a far worse problem. I cant help but to wonder that with morals on the rapid decline, out of marriage wedlock and births, soaring divorce rates, and general child abuse/neglect that we arent socially conditioning our children towards being LGBT?

Divorce rates dropping. http://time.com/4575495/divorce-rate-nearly-40-year-low/
 

Birth rates for unmarried women are declining for the first time in decades,. http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2014/08/13/birth-rate-for-unmarried-women-declining-for-first-time-in-decades/

Child abuse is declining too. http://www.csmonitor.com/The-Culture/Family/2012/1130/Child-sex-abuse-cases-dramatically-decline-in-US-says-report

I get it, we all want to wail and scream that life is so bad and no one has morals anymore but the facts don't back it up. 

[Rob Osborn]

10 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

Divorce rates dropping. http://time.com/4575495/divorce-rate-nearly-40-year-low/
 

Birth rates for unmarried women are declining for the first time in decades,. http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2014/08/13/birth-rate-for-unmarried-women-declining-for-first-time-in-decades/

Child abuse is declining too. http://www.csmonitor.com/The-Culture/Family/2012/1130/Child-sex-abuse-cases-dramatically-decline-in-US-says-report

I get it, we all want to wail and scream that life is so bad and no one has morals anymore but the facts don't back it up. 

I strongly beg to differ

[Guest MormonGator]

8 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

I strongly beg to differ

I'm not surprised. It's called "cognitive dissonance".  We don't want to believe something, so we choose to ignore anything that doesn't fit our pre conceived bias. Why someone can't change their thoughts or opinions after being confronted with conflicting evidence, that I don't know. 

Edited January 25, 2017 by MormonGator

[Rob Osborn]

15 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

I'm not surprised. It's called "cognitive dissonance".  We don't want to believe something, so we choose to ignore anything that doesn't fit our pre conceived bias. That, or outright denial. 

So what about this- https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2014/12/18/the-unbelievable-rise-of-single-motherhood-in-america-over-the-last-50-years/?utm_term=.9d4b8df12d9c

[Guest]

13 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

Birth rates for unmarried women are declining for the first time in decades,. http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2014/08/13/birth-rate-for-unmarried-women-declining-for-first-time-in-decades/

1 minute ago, Rob Osborn said:

So what about this- https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2014/12/18/the-unbelievable-rise-of-single-motherhood-in-america-over-the-last-50-years/?utm_term=.9d4b8df12d9c

The two graphs match.  You just need to look at it a bit more closely.  The rate "for the last 50 years" has been going up.  The rate for the last 15 have been going down (slightly).

Try not to find an argument where there is none.

[Rob Osborn]

http://www.newsmax.com/t/newsmax/article/619047?section=US&keywords=Family-single-parent-children-Pew-Research&year=2015&month=01&date=16&id=619047&aliaspath=%2FManage%2FArticles%2FTemplate-Main&oref=www.google.com

[Guest MormonGator]

1 minute ago, Carborendum said:

 The rate "for the last 50 years" has been going up.  The rate for the last 15 have been going down (slightly).

Try not to find an argument where there is none.

stole my thunder. 

Ironically I used to believe that life was so hard, the rest of the world was immoral! Doom! Gloom! But after converting to the LDS faith it drastically changed my world view for the positive. Well, that and data.  

Edited January 25, 2017 by MormonGator

[Guest]

Just now, MormonGator said:

stole my thunder. 

Hey, what's a brother for?

[Guest MormonGator]

1 minute ago, Carborendum said:

Hey, what's a brother for?

lol. Amen to that. 

[Rob Osborn]

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2014/12/22/less-than-half-of-u-s-kids-today-live-in-a-traditional-family/