Let’s Talk About Mental Illness

[Third Hour]

Lets talk about mental illness. Take a look at these statistics complied by healthline.com. These numbers are staggering. Monumental. You'd think that people would be talking about this epidemic that has affected more people than the Black Death ever did. You'd think that scientists worldwide would be searching for a cure. Newspapers would be reporting the increasing numbers. Social figures would address it whenever they grace the television screen. But no one has really said anything. And depression is just the beginning. Mental illnesses like depression, anxiety, bipolar disorder, schizophrenia, and countless others affect a majority of the population. Odds are you know someone who takes medication or seeks counseling for any of these illnesses. Maybe you are fighting one yourself. It's as common as McDonalds on the corner, but no one seems to be able to talk about it. Confessions of "I have depression," or "I was diagnosed with bipolar disorder," are saved for late night conversations between trusted individuals. We hide our struggles from our friends and even family. We take comfort in the...

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[yjacket]

It's not talked about as much b/c there are a few problems with "mental illness"; first for the vast majority of mental illnesses, we have symptoms and diagnoses, but not concrete evidence of the exact nature as to the problem.  If you break your leg, you can see the x-ray, the bone sticking up etc.  Mental illness has none of that.  If someone broke their leg and went to the doctor saying "my leg hurts really bad, it's hard to walk" and the doctor said-here is some percocet-take this whenever the pain gets back and that's it-that's similar to mental illness.

Psychologists prescribe extremely powerful medicines that drastically jack with the brain and cause lot of bad things in the body, mind, soul to cover up the symptoms of mental illness.  We truly do not know what causes these problems.  Psychologists describing a "chemical imbalance" are just spouting complete bull-they didn't measure one's supposed "chemical imbalance", they don't even know what the "right" chemical balance should be.  It truly is black medicine.

And it's really hard to talk about something personal that has no real known causes.

[Guest]

So before x-rays, leg injuries didn't exist?

[Jane_Doe]

11 minutes ago, Eowyn said:

So before x-rays, leg injuries didn't exist?

When we were growing up, my little sister fell down and hurt her arm.  Nothing appeared wrong with it- no bruising, no visible breakage, full mobility.  But she said it hurt and whined about it.  A lot.  And we shrugged it off, because frankly this sister had a well earned reputation for whining at nothing.  Ten days after the fall, my mom finally took her to the doctor just so she would shut up.  Yep, the arm was broken- just in such a way that you couldn't tell without an X-ray.  Suddenly we were the fools, because we ignored her this entire time.

Edited January 26, 2017 by Jane_Doe

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

4 hours ago, yjacket said:

Psychologists prescribe extremely powerful medicines

You mean psychiatrists, they are doctors and can prescibe meds.  Psychologists do not prescribe medication. 

[yjacket]

2 minutes ago, LiterateParakeet said:

You mean psychiatrists, they are doctors and can prescibe meds.  Psychologists do not prescribe medication. 

Copy that-you are right I am wrong.

[yjacket]

2 hours ago, Eowyn said:

So before x-rays, leg injuries didn't exist?

No, it's just that you can't truly fix something unless you know exactly what is wrong.  Prescribing medication to cover up the symptoms is a pretty crappy and can't really be described as "medicine" more like "quackery".

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

2 hours ago, Jane_Doe said:

When we were growing up, my little sister fell down and hurt her arm.  Nothing appeared wrong with it- no bruising, no visible breakage, full mobility.  But she said it hurt and whined about it.  A lot.  And we shrugged it off, because frankly this sister had a well earned reputation for whining at nothing.  Ten days after the fall, my mom finally took her to the doctor just so she would shut up.  Yep, the arm was broken- just in such a way that you couldn't tell without an X-ray.  Suddenly we were the fools, because we ignored her this entire time.

Something similar happened to my husband.  He injured his ankle as football practice.  He went to the doctor, but they said, "If you can walk on it, it isn't broken."  They didn't even get an x-ray. (This was eons ago.)  They told him that it was just a sprain.  Fast forward a year or so, and he was still in pain daily, so finally someone x-rayed it.  It was broken and needed surgery to be corrected.

About the article, I disagree.  I think that people (media, celebrities and people I know in real life) are talking about mental illness.  I definitely see this as a good thing.  

[estradling75]

1 hour ago, LiterateParakeet said:

Something similar happened to my husband.  He injured his ankle as football practice.  He went to the doctor, but they said, "If you can walk on it, it isn't broken."  They didn't even get an x-ray. (This was eons ago.)  They told him that it was just a sprain.  Fast forward a year or so, and he was still in pain daily, so finally someone x-rayed it.  It was broken and needed surgery to be corrected.
 

This and @Jane_Doe comment reinforces @yjacket point..  Even as something as simple as a broken bone can be hard to properly diagnose without the proper tools to obtain a clear and objective view about what is going on.  With mental health we have no tools to give us a clear and objective view.  And unlike with bones we really don't understand what makes for broken mental health... we only can see symptoms... symptoms that can potentially have a variety of causes.  This make treatment more about trial and error and lucky guesses...

[Jane_Doe]

2 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

This and @Jane_Doe comment reinforces @yjacket point..  Even as something as simple as a broken bone can be hard to properly diagnose without the proper tools to obtain a clear and objective view about what is going on.  With mental health we have no tools to give us a clear and objective view.  And unlike with bones we really don't understand what makes for broken mental health... we only can see symptoms... symptoms that can potentially have a variety of causes.  This make treatment more about trial and error and lucky guesses...

Not to mention the patient's determination and keeping with it (or lack thereof).

[Guest]

48 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

This and @Jane_Doe comment reinforces @yjacket point..  Even as something as simple as a broken bone can be hard to properly diagnose without the proper tools to obtain a clear and objective view about what is going on.  With mental health we have no tools to give us a clear and objective view.  And unlike with bones we really don't understand what makes for broken mental health... we only can see symptoms... symptoms that can potentially have a variety of causes.  This make treatment more about trial and error and lucky guesses...

But the better alternative isn't to pretend there's no illness, or even worse tell the person suffering to buck up/shake it off/ get over it. That is a tremendously unkind thing to do, and best case scenario they'd get good at pretending they're okay and shoving their feelings down to keep the peace, which can lead to horrible results as well.

Trial and error is certainly not the  ideal to go, but I'd rather have pain meds while they're trying to figure out how to heal my leg, than to be told to walk it off and get shoved out the door. 

Finding the right dosage of the right medication is a hard process for the doctor and the patient, but for someone who really needs it, it can literally be a life or death treatment. 

Edited January 27, 2017 by Eowyn

[yjacket]

7 hours ago, Eowyn said:

But the better alternative isn't to pretend there's no illness, or even worse tell the person suffering to buck up/shake it off/ get over it.

But if you don't know what is causing it then maybe, just maybe the cure is to actually "buck up/shake it off/get over it".  I don't think anyone-and certainly not myself-make the claim that the symptoms of depression do not exists that the symptoms of bipolar, etc. do not exist.  

But b/c we are dealing with the mind and at this point we have no concrete evidence that there is an actual physiological problem-maybe the cure is to "buck up/shake it off/get over it".  Maybe not, the fact is we don't know.  

And while yes sometimes medicine helps,sometimes not-sometimes it's no better than a placebo.  My main point is two-fold, we should be very leery of the quackery of psychologists and more specifically the philosophies of men in psychology.  Not that they are all bad-but we need to really be careful about whether they come from God or whether they are just the ideas of some man . The second point is we need to be very careful about the types of medicine we have people take for these issues-those are very powerful drugs and if someone goes batcrap crazy for a bit (hysterical,breakdown,bipolar, etc.) or depressed, giving them a drug that gives them suicidal thoughts (as many of them do!) ain't a good thing.

[yjacket]

7 hours ago, Eowyn said:

Finding the right dosage of the right medication is a hard process for the doctor and the patient, 

Yes, b/c they have no freaking clue what they are doing!!! That's why.  Why are you willing to trust your life with a "doctor" who has absolutely no clue how to solve it?  Me, I'd rather put my faith in God only rather than some quack.

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

18 minutes ago, yjacket said:

Me, I'd rather put my faith in God only rather than some quack.

Putting our faith in God is certainly important.  However, God may want us to do something more . . .

"If you had appendicitis, God would expect you to seek a priesthood blessing and get the best medical care available. So too with emotional disorders. Our Father in Heaven expects us to use all of the marvelous gifts He has provided in this glorious dispensation."  Jeffrey R. Holland, Like a Broken Vessel October 2013 General Conference

Personally, I chose to see a psychologist rather than a psychiatrist, but for some people the medication that psychiatrists provide can be a life saver as @Eowyn mentioned.  

[estradling75]

9 hours ago, Eowyn said:

But the better alternative isn't to pretend there's no illness, or even worse tell the person suffering to buck up/shake it off/ get over it.

There is a world of difference between pointing out the flaws and limits of the current medical treatment of mental health and declaring that there is nothing going on with a person.

Lets expand on this point.

10 hours ago, Eowyn said:

Trial and error is certainly not the  ideal to go, but I'd rather have pain meds while they're trying to figure out how to heal my leg, than to be told to walk it off and get shoved out the door. 

Of course you would.  But seriously if you had a broken leg and every time you went to the doctor all they did was adjust your pain meds... you would think something was still very wrong even though you love being free from pain.  You would know that you were not healed.  Not only do you still have a broken leg (even if you can't feel it) now you have a life time of pain pills to look forward to will all the negative effects of that. (Addiction and masking of pain from other issues so you don't know about them etc)

Now lets discuss the "walk it off" idea.

Lets say your kids comes up and tells you that they are "Very Sad."  Know you know there is quite the spectrum of sadness..  it can go from "I did not get the last cookie" sad.  Thru "I lost a dear friend/family member/pet" sad  to "I am going to blow my brains out" sad. 

At the "Cookie" end the proper response is "walk it off" "Suck it up" "Tough it out"  Life if full of these kind of issues and learning to deal is the correct response.

At the "Lost" part being sad is both normal and healthy to things that are tragic.  And the proper response is general support.

At the "blow my brains out" you reach the not normal stage.  Something is broken at the mental health level..  The prior tactics are not going to work and professional/skilled help is going to be necessary.

The problem is that very few of us are skilled/professionals.  We can handle the first two easily enough but the handling the third is disaster.  But there is not the mental equivalent of a cast that tell us clearly that the person in question needs/is under professional help.   If there was such a thing we could respond accordingly, but without it we stuck with a command to be Christ-like and helpful, but without the skills or warning to actually do so effectively.

 

 

 

[NeuroTypical]

yjacket's over-the-top rhetoric is not groundless, but it is over the top.  And it is rhetoric.  

It is true that diagnosing mental issues can be vague and subjective, hardly a refined and settled science.

It is not true that doctors prescribing medication all don't know what they're doing.  Medical treatment for mental illness, although still not perfect, is always improving and has been shown to be effective for millions.  Studies, although limited as to what we can study and what we can and can't explain, give practicioners information on what works and what doesn't.  

We can be unsettled and uncomfortable that the current state of affairs is in the realm of "We tried this with 100 people, and 80 reported a favorable outcome", but that doesn't mean we know nothing.  We can keep an open mind about what's effective and ineffective, without using scare quotes and insulting language to demonize our medical professionals.

And yes, it's important to talk openly about stuff like depression, schizophrenia, ADD, PTSD, and the whole range of mental issues out there.  People have experiences and know things, and often are afraid to say anything out of fear they'll be judged or buried under bad advice. 

[yjacket]

4 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

We can be unsettled and uncomfortable that the current state of affairs is in the realm of "We tried this with 100 people, and 80 reported a favorable outcome", but that doesn't mean we know nothing.  We can keep an open mind about what's effective and ineffective, without using scare quotes and insulting language to demonize our medical professionals.

But that's not science (that's taking a dart and throwing it and saying welp looks like we got somewhat close this time!), it's not solving the problem-the studies end up being rigged, it's very hard to find double-blind studies and even those that are may or may not be meaningful.  For the FDA to approve a drug, they need 3 studies that prove it "works", but they don't tell you have many studies they needed to do in order to get 3 that it worked.

Yes we literally know almost nothing about it.  When we start getting to the point of scanning brains and saying it is exactly this part of the brain that is causing a problem for each and every instance of xyz and we know that abc medicine does blah to make xyz part of the brain "normal". Then we might be getting somewhere.

It's not scare quotes or over the top rhetoric-it is reality.  Now this isn't to say that their is no value in talking to a "professional", b/c there are effective coping methods that can help-but the bottom line is we don't know why this person exhibits symptoms of bipolar or this person has this issue or that issue.

Until you know why, you can't solve it anything that you try to solve it is pseudo-science and quackery.  As long as we recognize that and go into it with eyes wide open, I'd don't have a problem with it.  If you think you need to see a psychologist-fine go for it. But just recognize that they really don't have a clue as to "what's wrong with you".

Ultimately we are talking about the human mind and how people think. IMO, God only knows exactly what makes us tick.  What part of us actually forms conscience thought and how are those thoughts transformed from thoughts to actions? Only God knows.  So IMO psychology, without the affirmation of the existence of God is a false science, and a false religion.  And unfortunately, the vast majority of major thinkers in psychology are and were atheists.

So you are going to trust your life based on an ideology that disavows the existence of God?  Nope, no thank you.  If science advances to the point were it becomes similar to a broken bone-I'll change my opinion-if and until then it is my opinion that it is a quack psuedo-science dressed up to make people feel good, that someone knows exactly what is "wrong" with them-which isn't the case at all.

[Traveler]

I will begin by saying that I am no expert.  I am not even a novice.  I do not want to pretend that I know something that someone else does not know – I don’t.  Mental illness is a conundrum to me.  As many of you know my background is science driven and I am a great fan of logic and reason.  I have had some experience with mental illness with very dear friends and family.  But I am aware I am not a good friend for someone having mental problems.  I am not an affectionate person and it seems to me many mentally ill as well as non-mentally ill individuals do better in environments of affection.  Pretending affection is obvious to everybody – I just do not connect well when affection is required.  Even when I am emotionally attached and deeply care for someone – expressing and receiving affection is awkward for me.  Please do not misunderstand – I am not void of affection – I am awkward and out of my element.

I have in essence some thoughts concerning mental illness.  Again realize that I am logic based and if something seem critical – it is not meant to be.  It is meant to be an effort to discuss this topic with logic and reason with the cold hard intent to think outside the box and even if painful – find some means of resolution.

The first thought is from my LDS religious background – This thought is that we are all hopelessly fallen and flawed.  But we are not flawed in the same manner nor to the same degree.  No one is without flaws but some do indeed suffer more than others.  At the same time we all also come to this life with spiritual gifts (See Book of Mormon – Moroni Chapter 10).  This means that everyone comes into life with value.  I think one of the great lessons of life is to learn to see the values of ourselves and others; at least (or at minimum) as well as we see and comprehend the flaws.

Second Thought is also from my LDS background – It has to do with influences of spirits; both enlightened and unclean spirit influences.  I believe a parameter and primary purpose of this life is to experience both enlightened and unclean influences.  I am indeed and expert and extremely experienced in temptation and I realize that we do not get to choose our temptations.  It also seem to me that the more “righteous” we become the more aggressive will be the unclean spirit influences.  Often the aggressive nature of unclean spirits will be experienced before we will make advances in righteousness.  Being tempted is not a sign of unrighteousness.  Strange as it may seem – even succumbing to temptation is not an indication of unrighteousness.  The sign of and curse of unrighteousness is an unwillingness to repent – including asking and seeking for forgiveness.

I wonder that mental illness is directly associated to influences of unclean spirits.  I do not say this to criticize or shame anyone.  I am just putting the possibility there.  There may not be a silver bullet that for everything that can challenge us in mortality.  It is interesting to me how often Jesus healed those afflicted by removing the influences of one or more unclean spirits – especially in light of modern times that has a culture to exhaust and remove that as a possibility of individual suffering.

The last thought comes from my father and his advice to me personally.  He would often say – “If you are not part of the solution – then you are either part of the problem or you are the problem.”  Every good person is bound to help and assist others in their afflictions and help bear one another’s burdens.  But the operative words are help and assist.  It is up to the individual, regardless of their challenge, to be the primary solution seeker.  This I believe this includes the mentally afflicted as well.  Help and assistance cannot come or go where it is not allowed.

 

The Traveler

Edited January 27, 2017 by Traveler

[yjacket]

2 minutes ago, Traveler said:

I wonder that mental illness is directly associated to influences of unclean spirits. 

I have often wondered this and personally, I think there is a lot more truth to this than most people realize.

I don't know why it's so hard for us to believe in the influence of evil spirits, being "possessed by them" when a significant portion of Christ's miracles were casting out Devils? We all say that in a common refrain "Christ raised the dead, healed the sick, cast out devils", yet today we have completely lost the ability to think that this might really be the case.  Why would the scriptures include "casting out devils" if they didn't recognized that devils possessing people were part of this life and happened. 

Yet in today's modern society-when was the last time we heard of "casting out of devils".  It is so hard for us to believe that portion of the scriptures, yet we are willing to believe the philosophies of atheistic men?  Seem like a little bit of a quandary to me.

[estradling75]

4 minutes ago, yjacket said:

I have often wondered this and personally, I think there is a lot more truth to this than most people realize.

I don't know why it's so hard for us to believe in the influence of evil spirits, being "possessed by them" when a significant portion of Christ's miracles were casting out Devils? We all say that in a common refrain "Christ raised the dead, healed the sick, cast out devils", yet today we have completely lost the ability to think that this might really be the case.  Why would the scriptures include "casting out devils" if they didn't recognized that devils possessing people were part of this life and happened. 

Yet in today's modern society-when was the last time we heard of "casting out of devils".  It is so hard for us to believe that portion of the scriptures, yet we are willing to believe the philosophies of atheistic men?  Seem like a little bit of a quandary to me.

Because medicine is in the realm of science and spirits are in the faith... and science is incapable of crossing the line in faith.

People of faith in the church usually seek out both priesthood blessings and medical care... but generally only share details of medical care.  Because blessing generally fall in the category of sacred

Edited January 27, 2017 by estradling75

[yjacket]

8 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

Because medicine is in the realm of science and spirits are in the faith... and science is incapable of crossing the line in faith.

People of faith in the church usually seek out both priesthood blessings and medical care... but generally only share details of medical care.  Because blessing generally fall in the category of sacred

Very, very true.  I love this from you.  Thank you!

Just one of my own personal quandaries in the Church-we don't talk about it very openly . . .I'm not talking about the blessings, I'm talking about the no kidding, literal Power of God to cast out Devils.

Edited January 27, 2017 by yjacket

[estradling75]

8 minutes ago, yjacket said:

Just one of my own personal quandaries in the Church-we don't talk about it very openly . . .I'm not talking about the blessings, I'm talking about the no kidding, literal Power of God to cast out Devils.

And how many of us are aware of instances of Devils being cast out personally?

If we are sick and we get a blessing and get better that is a miracle...  But is it a miracle of casting out an unclean spirit or the miracle of fixing the broken/damaged processes of our bodies? (and are we wise even to even know if there is a difference between the two)

 

 

 

[Traveler]

Sometimes I wonder if we label something sacred for the primary purpose of avoiding ridicule but then stand for something else less so even in the face of greater ridicule.   Though I have a strong background in science and associate with others that live by empirical evidence – I have found that suggesting we not eliminate something until we have proof elimination is necessary is on many occasions more acceptable to my atheists friends than many of my religious associates.  

I believe we should always seek spiritual blessings to assist us in our struggles – as we should also see every scientific and reasoning that apply or could possibly apply as we see resolution.  And we should use our fasting and testimonies to share what G-d reveals and does for us.  Perhaps there are two extremes – both which are not helpful.  First is the extreme that we should only seek spiritual blessings as a last resort and then only once.  And the other that we become entirely addicted to spiritual blessings like someone to morning coffee and think that we cannot begin a day without healthy dose of it.

 

The Traveler

[Traveler]

24 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

And how many of us are aware of instances of Devils being cast out personally?

If we are sick and we get a blessing and get better that is a miracle...  But is it a miracle of casting out an unclean spirit or the miracle of fixing the broken/damaged processes of our bodies? (and are we wise even to even know if there is a difference between the two)

 

 

 

 

I am personally aware of several.  The first for me was while seeking (through fasting and prayer) for empirical proof of the Book of Mormon – because I did not believe (or understand) I could testify of something to be true unless less I had empirical proof.  I have found that the details of my experiences are not comforting to many so I keep then close – but I do have experience and know that unclean spirits are not uncommon nor is their influence even though I cannot provide the empirical proofs on demand.

 

The Traveler

[estradling75]

1 minute ago, Traveler said:

 

I am personally aware of several.  The first for me was while seeking (through fasting and prayer) for empirical proof of the Book of Mormon – because I did not believe (or understand) I could testify of something to be true unless less I had empirical proof.  I have found that the details of my experiences are not comforting to many so I keep then close – but I do have experience and know that unclean spirits are not uncommon nor is their influence even though I cannot provide the empirical proofs on demand.

I wouldn't expect proof of such event or expect them to be comforting..

I have had experiences giving priesthood blessing of healing and having the person respond instantly.  I know it is a miracle, but I could not speak with any assureity of what type of miracle.  Was an unclean spirit cast out of that person making them whole again or was there another fix that God used?  I don't know, and I don't consider that detail nearly as important as the fact that the healing happened.