Mike Posted January 27, 2017 Report Share Posted January 27, 2017 1 hour ago, yjacket said: Yet in today's modern society-when was the last time we heard of "casting out of devils". It is so hard for us to believe that portion of the scriptures, yet we are willing to believe the philosophies of atheistic men? Seem like a little bit of a quandary to me. Two reasons come to my mind. The first reason is that perhaps not so unlike the "quacks" who practice their brand of phony medicine there are so many stand-up guys who practice phony exorcisms. A second reason is that it's so hard for us to know which anecdotes are true given that we are often counseled to avoid casting our pearls (legitimate spiritual experiences) before swine (such as tabloid style story tellers). Maybe it's a kind of wheat-and-tares issue. yjacket 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anatess2 Posted January 27, 2017 Report Share Posted January 27, 2017 I got a psychological problem. A psychologist referred me to a psychiatrist for medication. I refused to see the psychiatrist. I believe that taking medication for my known psychological problem does nothing more than to exchange a known problem with an unknown problem. So yeah, sure, they might fix my IED, but they might break something else... like make me as responsive as a zombie. So, I decided to use my brain to "fix" what's wrong with me. All it is is developing coping mechanisms. Nobody knows me better than me - so I embarked on years of trying to figure this thing out and trying to learn ways of minimizing its damaging effects. My husband is a very important "medicine" to my psychological problem. I believe that my IED truly led me to understand the mortal challenge, the power of free will, and the power of Love in our journey towards Christ. One thing that the Scientologists positively contributed to humankind is the study of Dianetics - where you unleash your free will to control your body and induce healing. zil, a mustard seed and Jane_Doe 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Posted January 27, 2017 Report Share Posted January 27, 2017 2 minutes ago, anatess2 said: I got a psychological problem. A psychologist referred me to a psychiatrist for medication. I refused to see the psychiatrist. I believe that taking medication for my known psychological problem does nothing more than to exchange a known problem with an unknown problem. So yeah, sure, they might fix my IED, but they might break something else... like make me as responsive as a zombie. So, I decided to use my brain to "fix" what's wrong with me. All it is is developing coping mechanisms. Nobody knows me better than me - so I embarked on years of trying to figure this thing out and trying to learn ways of minimizing its damaging effects. My husband is a very important "medicine" to my psychological problem. I believe that my IED truly led me to understand the mortal challenge, the power of free will, and the power of Love in our journey towards Christ. One thing that the Scientologists positively contributed to humankind is the study of Dianetics - where you unleash your free will to control your body and induce healing. I can picture somebody (in Reason #1) wanting to stand you up in front of a congregation, slap you on the forehead, and tell the demon to come out of you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mirkwood Posted January 27, 2017 Report Share Posted January 27, 2017 2 hours ago, Traveler said: I wonder that mental illness is directly associated to influences of unclean spirits. So how would you explain this theory for a family with generational depression? A family where grandma had depression, followed by a daughter, followed by a son, followed by a grandson who all suffer from depression. Are you implying in this theory generational influence of unclean spirits? Mike 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MormonGator Posted January 27, 2017 Report Share Posted January 27, 2017 39 minutes ago, mirkwood said: So how would you explain this theory for a family with generational depression? A family where grandma had depression, followed by a daughter, followed by a son, followed by a grandson who all suffer from depression. Are you implying in this theory generational influence of unclean spirits? Great point. Metal illness obviously exists and no, it's not the cause of "unclean spirits" anymore than a being born with a hearing loss is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Posted January 27, 2017 Report Share Posted January 27, 2017 1 hour ago, MormonGator said: Great point. Metal illness obviously exists and no, it's not the cause of "unclean spirits" anymore than a being born with a hearing loss is. 'Course when I was a teen there were some who told me that blindness was caused by some unclean spirits, heh heh, if you know what I mean. anatess2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a mustard seed Posted January 27, 2017 Report Share Posted January 27, 2017 I've had bad experiences all my life with psychiatric and medical professionals trying to medicate my ADD and depression, both of which are mysteriously gone now, 20 years later. I had much better success when I read a book by Debbie Ford and returned to the church. Viewing myself as a child of a loving heavenly father and realizing my potential and value released me from a mindset where these were problems that 1. I needed chemicals to fix and 2. That anyone else could take responsibility for solving them for me. I've been through a ton of different medications and talked to many different professionals and the best advice I ever got was to listen to myself. It was also the hardest thing to do because taking accountability for what is in my head was one of the most agonizing things I've ever had to do. If I ever birthed a child, I'd see where it fell on the scale, lol. I think that extremely abnormal conditions can be worked through better with a bishop and faith sensitive doctor but it is foolish to think of how commonplace diagnosises like anxiety disorders and depression are. Is humanity that broken? Or can we look for other environmental causes? Afterall, in these last days in such a godless country with threats knocking down our door, people have a lot to be anxious and depressed about. It can seem like it has no root when we deny our internal voices that speak from the shut up places in our hearts. I think teaching people to recognize their emotions and listen to themselves about where it is coming from rather than projecting it would be a better endeavor than chemical cocktails and supporting a narrative where a pill truly can fix anything. Traveler and zil 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Traveler Posted January 27, 2017 Report Share Posted January 27, 2017 (edited) 2 hours ago, mirkwood said: So how would you explain this theory for a family with generational depression? A family where grandma had depression, followed by a daughter, followed by a son, followed by a grandson who all suffer from depression. Are you implying in this theory generational influence of unclean spirits? One of my experiences with what I would call a clean spirit happens to have been my great grandfather who I was named after. I believe and I believe LDS concepts supports the idea that family relationships reach far beyond currently living generation but that covenants bring together family relationships that span hundred and even thousands of years. I submit that it is not unlikely that covenants (such as the Abraham covenant) deal with families far beyond generations of those living when covenant are made. In essence that family covenants dating back to Abraham are still being realized today. I have also considered the possibility that unclean spirits have aversions to various families and their covenants as well as individuals and take pride in establishing influences for multiple generations. In part I believe that unclean spirits copy, impersonate and counterfeit even the everlasting covenant of marriage and generational families. I realize that families have genetics but I am also open to the possibility that families (including extended families) play a much larger role in our mortal probation than many may think or have considered – including those unclean spirits that wish to destroy covenants. Thanks for your question The Traveler Edited January 27, 2017 by Traveler mirkwood 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Traveler Posted January 27, 2017 Report Share Posted January 27, 2017 52 minutes ago, Mike said: 'Course when I was a teen there were some who told me that blindness was caused by some unclean spirits, heh heh, if you know what I mean. Are you certain that unclean spirits do not ever have such a role or are capable of such a thing. In the book of Job we learn the unclean spirits can have rather harsh effects on the health and lively hood of even good and righteous people. My understanding is that physical and mental difficulties are not the result of sin but I know of no doctrine that state that unclean spirits are limited to certain function and could not be involved at all with blindness - or some other condition we think of as strictly physical. The Traveler Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Posted January 27, 2017 Report Share Posted January 27, 2017 3 minutes ago, Traveler said: Are you certain that unclean spirits do not ever have such a role or are capable of such a thing. In the book of Job we learn the unclean spirits can have rather harsh effects on the health and lively hood of even good and righteous people. My understanding is that physical and mental difficulties are not the result of sin but I know of no doctrine that state that unclean spirits are limited to certain function and could not be involved at all with blindness - or some other condition we think of as strictly physical. The Traveler My remark was just a lame attempt at humor and not meant to express anything more. I am not certain what unclean, evil, etc. spirits can and can't do. I'm one of those people who --although I dislike demonic movies and devil-worship type stories because they make it difficult to fall asleep when things go bump in the night--has not had any experiences with such things as evil spirits that I can honestly identify. So, beyond the sober counsel of ordained Priesthood Leaders I can't say much more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mirkwood Posted January 27, 2017 Report Share Posted January 27, 2017 31 minutes ago, Traveler said: One of my experiences with what I would call a clean spirit happens to have been my great grandfather who I was named after. I believe and I believe LDS concepts supports the idea that family relationships reach far beyond currently living generation but that covenants bring together family relationships that span hundred and even thousands of years. I submit that it is not unlikely that covenants (such as the Abraham covenant) deal with families far beyond generations of those living when covenant are made. In essence that family covenants dating back to Abraham are still being realized today. I have also considered the possibility that unclean spirits have aversions to various families and their covenants as well as individuals and take pride in establishing influences for multiple generations. In part I believe that unclean spirits copy, impersonate and counterfeit even the everlasting covenant of marriage and generational families. I realize that families have genetics but I am also open to the possibility that families (including extended families) play a much larger role in our mortal probation than many may think or have considered – including those unclean spirits that wish to destroy covenants. Thanks for your question The Traveler While I agree with much of what you posted, it appears to me that you are completely discounting genetic deficiencies being passed along. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 28, 2017 Report Share Posted January 28, 2017 16 hours ago, yjacket said: . Why are you willing to trust your life with a "doctor" who has absolutely no clue how to solve it? Me, I'd rather put my faith in God I did first the latter, which led to the former, which did save my life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jojo Bags Posted January 28, 2017 Report Share Posted January 28, 2017 (edited) I've been reading through the replies to the topic and I'm sitting here shaking my head. I've read Elder Holland's talk four or five times and no where does he say to take drugs or trust everything the doctor wants to do. He said, " Prayerfully and responsibly consider the counsel they give and the solutions they prescribe." I guess this part kinda gets overlooked. Of course, those members who have doctors as their golden calf will immediately justify wolfing down a handful of pills claiming that Elder Holland said it was all right. Then again, the pshrinkologist and big pharma will totally agree about the pills. Money makes the world go round. If I sound disgusted, there's a reason for that. As yjacket has been saying, there are absolutely no tests that exist which can measure the amount of dopamine or any other brain chemical for that matter. None, nadda, nothing; no tests. The so-called doctors won't tell you that they are simply guessing as to the cause of mental illness. They have theories galore, but none of them can be proven by the scientific method because no tests exist. Did I say that no tests exist? Since no tests exist, perhaps it's time to consider other possibilities. Why don't we consider what the Church used to teach about various illnesses? Although the topic of possession by evil spirits is actively suppressed and/or ignored today by the overwhelming majority of LDS, it was a topic that was talked about in considerable detail during the first hundred years of the Church. There's this myth going around that claims that if you talk about evil spirits, you'll bring them about. What a joke. Starting with Joseph Smith and all the way till the 1930;s, a great deal of information about possession was given by many apostles and prophets. Even our modern day prophets and aposdtles have taught about the subject. Joseph Fielding Smith, Harold B. Lee, Bruce R, NcConkie, and Howard W. Hunter all talked about it. The subject even came up in last years priesthood/relief society manual featuring the teachings of Pres. Hunter. In chapter 20, he said that the Savior "drove out the demons and evil spirits that had caused mental or emotional illness." How many of you missed that part? Elder McConkie said, "There must be circumstances of depression and sin and physical weakness that within the restrictions of divine control, permit evil spirits to enter human bodies." How about I throw one in from Pres. Smith. "No, it is not always a diseased mind that disturbs the normal thinking, the possession by devils is a positive fact." Pres. Lee said that Satan has three main purposes. Guess what the second main purpose was? To possess the bodies of the human race. In 1906 and 1907, the Church included in official Sunday school lessons for the young women this topic and said that possession was a frequent occurrence. Quote Man is composed of body and spirit. There are diseases of the spirit as of the body. The condition of the body influences the Spirit; and any disorder of the spirit affect the body. Since, however, the spirit is subtler than common matter, it is more difficult to understand and cure diseases of the spirit than the common ailments of the body. The power of the Savior penetrated body and spirit. Many of the most marvelous miracles are those that affected the spiritual part of man. There are in existence numerous spirits. Many are good, and some are evil. At the great council in heaven, when the plan of salvation was formulated, the devil turned away one-third of the hosts of heaven, who became the angels of the devil. These spirits are not permitted to come on earth in mortal bodies. This is their great punishment. No spirit can attain full happiness unless it is clothed upon with a body obtained in a probationary earth existence. The angels of the devil know this, and attempt to circumvent the will of God in various ways. They will enter the bodies of men and women, to the serious injury of the person; and at times will enter bodies of the lower animals. Moreover, since the mission of these unclean spirits is to do evil, by their influence and suggestion they may torment the minds and bodies of men. The miracles of the Savior therefore, which dealt with the diseases of the mind, frequently concerned themselves with the spirits that as emissaries of the evil one seek power over the children of men. The Young Woman’s Journal, Vol. 17, No. 10, Oct 1906, Pgs. 468-470 Not only did the Savior perform miracles of healing the body, but diseases of the mind were frequently overcome by His divine power. The devil and his angels are bodiless, which is a part of their punishment for their rebellion in Heaven. In their great desire to possess mortal bodies, they frequently enter into the bodies of men and women to the serious injury of the person. At times they will enter even the bodies of lower animals. Many cases of individuals possessed by evil spirits, came under the notice of the Savior, and He frequently had occasion to cast out evil spirits. The Young Woman’s Journal, Vol. 18, No. 1, January 1907 I can hear some people saying that the Church no long teaches this. Well, perhaps we should look to our the Bible Dictionary included with our official cannon of scripture. “The LDS Bible Dictionary was created in the 1970s by the Scriptures Publications Committee of the LDS Church. This committee was chaired by Thomas S. Monson, then a member of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles.” This quote is under the topic of "Devil." Quote Since the devil and his premortal angels have no physical body of flesh and bones, they often seek to possess the bodies of mortal beings. There are many such instances recorded in scripture (Matt. 9:32; 12:22; Mark 1:24; 5:7; Luke 8:30; Acts 19:15; see also Mosiah 3:6). Such can be evicted by the power of faith in Jesus Christ and the exercise of the holy priesthood. Jesus gave this power to His disciples (Matt. 10:1; Mark 16:17; Luke 10:17; Acts 5:16; D&C 84:67). I can go on and on and on and...you get it. So, why doesn't the Church actively teach this now? It's because so many LDS have outright rejected the teachings of the apostles and prophets regarding possession. Instead, the members have accepted the secular wisdom of the world that teaches that Satan and evil spirits don't exist. Interestingly enough, in 2001, the Deseret News published a survey from the Barna Group in which LDS were questioned about their belief in the reality of Satan and his ability to tempt and influence. Fully 41% of the respondents said they did not believe that Satan was real. Go figure. Edited January 28, 2017 by Jojo Bags yjacket and a mustard seed 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest LiterateParakeet Posted January 28, 2017 Report Share Posted January 28, 2017 I can tell you with a certainty that none of my mental health issues were from being possessed. I am healing with therapy- no meds and no exercisms. I've had many blessings over the years and none of them mentioned evil spirits. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 28, 2017 Report Share Posted January 28, 2017 5 hours ago, Jojo Bags said: topic of possession by evil spirits They have meds for OCD, too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jojo Bags Posted January 28, 2017 Report Share Posted January 28, 2017 3 hours ago, Eowyn said: Yup. Too bad there isn't a pill for ignorance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Traveler Posted January 28, 2017 Report Share Posted January 28, 2017 18 hours ago, mirkwood said: While I agree with much of what you posted, it appears to me that you are completely discounting genetic deficiencies being passed along. Sorry to indicate that I am completely discounting genetic deficiencies. My efforts in this thread was to introduce, not a new idea but rather a very old and ancient one that in the landscape of modern efforts is seldom if ever, even considered. As we each experience our journey through mortality there are many things to be considered and encountered. I personally think it is unwise, especially without proof otherwise to eliminate the possibility; of intelligence influences from sources other than our modern standard model of temporary mortal life forms. Our efforts to search for extraterrestrial intelligence seems to be open to consider many possible variations with the one exception; being that of intelligence outside of mortality as we understand it box. I believe that we should consider a preponderance of data before us from sub atomic particles and quantum abnormalities to the realm of galactic stellular superclusters as possible evidence of --- somethin intelligence. Not an intelligence acting upon emperical things but emperical things that are themselves, intelligent. But that is another idea beyond the idea or dark intelligence a intelligence of light. The Traveler mirkwood 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 28, 2017 Report Share Posted January 28, 2017 1 hour ago, Jojo Bags said: 5 hours ago, Eowyn said: Yup. Too bad there isn't a pill for ignorance. I didn't say it, but I wholeheartedly agree with zero reservation whatsoever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
estradling75 Posted January 28, 2017 Report Share Posted January 28, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, Traveler said: Sorry to indicate that I am completely discounting genetic deficiencies. My efforts in this thread was to introduce, not a new idea but rather a very old and ancient one that in the landscape of modern efforts is seldom if ever, even considered. As we each experience our journey through mortality there are many things to be considered and encountered. I personally think it is unwise, especially without proof otherwise to eliminate the possibility; of intelligence influences from sources other than our modern standard model of temporary mortal life forms. Is it possible that unclean spirits are following family lines?... of course it is... However when it comes to treatment, when it comes to making a choice of how to act to seek relief from such aliments... it is logical to go with what has historically worked. If your family line has a history of aliments and those aliments have been remedied by having the priesthood come and cast out Unclean spirits... Then that is the logical and reasonable path to continue. If it has been treated by seeking out the best medicine has to offer then that is the logical and reasonable path to continue. The church has counciled its members to follow both paths. And faithful members do indeed follow both. And inspite what other posters in this thread might declare in a fit of unrighteous judgement.... if you have a faithful member of the church who gets a miraculous cure but can't tell any stories of unclean spirits being cast out... doesn't mean that they some how have rejected the idea... It means simply it was not their experience. And the more and more faithful people who have miraculous cures but who continue to not have that experience... the more likely it becomes that they are not having it because that is not the cause, rather then being blinded by a false faith in science. Because if their faith was falsely placed their would have been no miracle. Of course not everyone gets cured either... the scripture are clear about this too... the Apostle Paul's thorn in the flesh is a perfect example. Paul's powerful faith can not be denied. Yet the Lord saw fit to inflict some weakness on him, for his greater good. Therefore the idea that someone remains afflicted by something can not simply be chalked up and discounted as "lack of faith" or "wrongly placed faith" Edited January 28, 2017 by estradling75 SilentOne and mirkwood 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anatess2 Posted January 30, 2017 Report Share Posted January 30, 2017 On 1/27/2017 at 4:36 PM, Mike said: 'Course when I was a teen there were some who told me that blindness was caused by some unclean spirits, heh heh, if you know what I mean. So, I really am mostly clueless when it comes to American jokes but this one I laughed out loud... you know why? My husband had to explain this to me in that Avatar movie. Haha. Mike 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anatess2 Posted January 30, 2017 Report Share Posted January 30, 2017 On 1/27/2017 at 2:09 PM, Mike said: I can picture somebody (in Reason #1) wanting to stand you up in front of a congregation, slap you on the forehead, and tell the demon to come out of you. I think this happens in @prisonchaplain's congregation. I've never been there though. Might be worth a shot... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prisonchaplain Posted January 31, 2017 Report Share Posted January 31, 2017 21 hours ago, anatess2 said: I think this happens in @prisonchaplain's congregation. I've never been there though. Might be worth a shot... vs. fight, with me ... refereeing. Sounds great. In all seriousness, what is the LDS approach to demonic activity? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
estradling75 Posted January 31, 2017 Report Share Posted January 31, 2017 9 hours ago, prisonchaplain said: vs. fight, with me ... refereeing. Sounds great. In all seriousness, what is the LDS approach to demonic activity? Same as with all other struggles we might face... Prayer, Fasting, Priesthood Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 31, 2017 Report Share Posted January 31, 2017 9 hours ago, prisonchaplain said: In all seriousness, what is the LDS approach to demonic activity? I'm not sure what you mean by "approach". Please elaborate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anatess2 Posted January 31, 2017 Report Share Posted January 31, 2017 56 minutes ago, Carborendum said: I'm not sure what you mean by "approach". Please elaborate. In the Catholic faith, they do exorcisms. I think PC wants to know what our version of exorcism is... prisonchaplain 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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