Not All Muslims Are Bad. Prejudice Has Been Created!


Penlady
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<div class='quotemain'>

Yea you probably owe PC an apology.

A little something about PC, he would defend us, and our beliefs, which are not too different from his, most of the time, to the death.

He has shown his meddle many times here.

Are you sure you didn't mean METTLE? I have not known PC to be a meddler, as some others here obviously are. I would say he has shown his mettle, not his meddle. But that's just me, you can say whatever you want. :dontknow::dontknow::dontknow:

yup, i misspelled. METTLE looks better anyway

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<div class='quotemain'>

<div class='quotemain'>

Yea you probably owe PC an apology.

A little something about PC, he would defend us, and our beliefs, which are not too different from his, most of the time, to the death.

He has shown his meddle many times here.

Are you sure you didn't mean METTLE? I have not known PC to be a meddler, as some others here obviously are. I would say he has shown his mettle, not his meddle. But that's just me, you can say whatever you want. :dontknow::dontknow::dontknow:

yup, i misspelled. METTLE looks better anyway

Hope I didn't offend, it just bothers me when people misspell and the words take on an entirely different and unintended meaning. :dontknow::hmmm:

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I'd already edited my post to soften my irritation, and ya went and copied the original. sigh. Just know that my initial "What???!!!"" reaction was quickly salved by the kind defense of several here. Further, penlady's heart and key point are true, imho.

Sorry bout that PC.

But that's what was there at the time that I was reading and posting.

Onyx

:dontknow::dontknow::dontknow:

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I'm used to being mocked, after being married for years to the most misunderstood group of people on the planet at this time.

Hi Penlady,

It's funny, because I am a person who despises bigotry and I have been very vocal about on in this board, so this may surprise a few people here.

You see, I of course don't support bigotry against Muslims, but at the same time, I am angry at the so-called "moderate Muslims" in America, and I can't quite get my mind around completely supporting the Muslim communities against bigotry like I would want to. This goes for Muslims around the world as well.

As far as my "so-called," I think its outrageous we have to partition Muslims into "safe," and "dangerous." I don't have a better solution. I just find it insulting, and feel it is part of the bigotry I can't seem to get into. Okay, if you understood that, bonus points for you.

Anyway, my dilemma arises out of a question Six asked you earlier. With the deluge of horror Al Qaeda and the Taliban have brought down on not only the U.S., which comparably has received a relatively minor amount, but the complete obliteration of families, communities and a country, why are the moderate Muslims who don’t support their causes not speaking up and demanding their cold-blooded murder stop? Why have they not become activists to their fellow Muslims around the world, organizing and educating and, if necessary, working with "moderate" Muslim governments to take out the Muslims who supposedly don’t represent them, who have nothing to do with true Islam, who are obliterating people left and right, and who are not part of the “most misunderstood people on the earth”

I’m sorry to be so blunt, but I have studied Islam and the Iraqis in connection with the war and I don’t see the “people” you see. I see people who cannot form a constitution without including the law of Sharia, which immediately cancels out both the constitution and women’s rights. That’s the law, and I don’t care how peaceful 99 percent of the Iraqis are, it only takes one percent who wants to take his 14-year-old daughter and stone her for an honor killing because she was raped and dishonored the family.

Yes, Iraq’s Sunni and Shia’s schisms are ancient. So, are the Muslim’s in this country that different? If the answer is yes, then WHERE ARE THEY!? Where are their voices? Where are their activists? Why aren’t they the ones educating their fellow Muslims not to stone women to death?

If you can explain these things to me so that they make sense, I promise you, I will listen. But I’ve studied this for a long time, and I have yet to find it.

By the way, I’m an atheist, so loving God matters nothing to me. I want to find Muslims who love their women and children, and respect them enough to stop murdering them, their neighbors, their communities and the world. If they love God while doing that, then I think that’s a beautiful thing. But the moderate Muslims need to get up and shout: STOP! or this is never going to end.

Elphaba

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Hi Dearest Elphaba

I LOVE the way you think, and yup, I get it! And I love the concept of how pitiful it is that we have to decide between a "safe" Muslim and a "dangerous" Muslim.

I can't tell you much about what the people are doing in Iraq and Afghanistan, but in my line of work (proofreading translations from Muslim languages for UK legal system), I can tell you that there are HUGE organizations growing daily in UK and USA and Canada and Pakistan and other Muslim countries that are doing exactly what you say...teaching why the extermists are wrong, and backing it up with words from their own books to make it stick. These groups hate violence because it makes them look like the extremists, but yes, they ARE fighting with the taliban losing their lives, to save the world from wanting to drestroy all Muslims. We tanslate ID cards almost daily for people who have joined these new groups, I read the rules and the vows written on the memberhip cards, and there is now a war between the extemists and moderates in Pakistan, and in UK these groups are taking over whole mosques, proselyting young Muslims, asking them to come to these mosques to teach them the REAL Islam, not the violent, angry stuff. You don't see the groups of Muslims in the US teaching against extremism, because you don't attend their mosques and bigger meetings. They have HUGE, sports stadiums fiilled with Muslims, then have speakers come to speak to them about how to get rid of these cockroaches who are ruining the name of Islam. If you want to hear what they are being taught, I can lead you to youtube to my husband's favorite Islamic speaker, who travels the world speaking about how to live as a good Muslim should...his name is Zakir Naik, and he is just one of thousands who are trying to make a revolution of good. He also has his own website at www.drzakirnaik.com. Be assured that the Muslim people are not just hiding in their homes letting all this happen. They are VERY much activists, and they know they have to heal the organization from within.

There has never been a world-wide set of standardized teachings for most of what Islam believes, just a small part of it. Each separate little area seems to develop their own beliefs, and now they are seeing that they need a more standardized method of teaching, just like a country's educational system, or like any other church. They all have a world-wide standard of what should be taught in their religion. This lack of unified opinions and teaching has let corruption slip in and often in villages, the only literate person is the Imam (priest), and they declare what is God's law, and the people can't read the Quran enough to prove him wrong, so they believe him and obey him, and that power leads to corruption. These are problems they are working on, along with re-inforcing the other Islamic traits of taking care of your fellow man, courtesy, charity, and the other positive parts of their teachings.

Maybe those in Iraq and Afghanistan are too shell shocked and overwhelmed to even think, much less change things, I don't know. I don't know the psychology of people who have lived in a war zone and I hope to never experience it. I'm reading a book by a man who lived through the holocaust, and he explains a lot about how people's thinking changes in long term crisises like war, so I know they are not in a position to be judged. They are overwhelmed and can barely think through the current hour's survival, much less form peace societies. I have heard that the Christian groups in Iraq have had an amazing amount of converts daily, because so many don't know how to change things, but they know there needs to be a big change, so that is what some of them are doing.

Blessings to you Elphaba. I love your genius mind.

Penlady

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Hi Dearest Elphaba

I LOVE the way you think, and yup, I get it! And I love the concept of how pitiful it is that we have to decide between a "safe" Muslim and a "dangerous" Muslim.

I can't tell you much about what the people are doing in Iraq and Afghanistan, but in my line of work (proofreading translations from Muslim languages for UK legal system), I can tell you that there are HUGE organizations growing daily in UK and USA and Canada and Pakistan and other Muslim countries that are doing exactly what you say...teaching why the extermists are wrong, and backing it up with words from their own books to make it stick. These groups hate violence because it makes them look like the extremists, but yes, they ARE fighting with the taliban losing their lives, to save the world from wanting to drestroy all Muslims. We tanslate ID cards almost daily for people who have joined these new groups, I read the rules and the vows written on the memberhip cards, and there is now a war between the extemists and moderates in Pakistan, and in UK these groups are taking over whole mosques, proselyting young Muslims, asking them to come to these mosques to teach them the REAL Islam, not the violent, angry stuff. You don't see the groups of Muslims in the US teaching against extremism, because you don't attend their mosques and bigger meetings. They have HUGE, sports stadiums fiilled with Muslims, then have speakers come to speak to them about how to get rid of these cockroaches who are ruining the name of Islam. If you want to hear what they are being taught, I can lead you to youtube to my husband's favorite Islamic speaker, who travels the world speaking about how to live as a good Muslim should...his name is Zakir Naik, and he is just one of thousands who are trying to make a revolution of good. He also has his own website at www.drzakirnaik.com. Be assured that the Muslim people are not just hiding in their homes letting all this happen. They are VERY much activists, and they know they have to heal the organization from within.

There has never been a world-wide set of standardized teachings for most of what Islam believes, just a small part of it. Each separate little area seems to develop their own beliefs, and now they are seeing that they need a more standardized method of teaching, just like a country's educational system, or like any other church. They all have a world-wide standard of what should be taught in their religion. This lack of unified opinions and teaching has let corruption slip in and often in villages, the only literate person is the Imam (priest), and they declare what is God's law, and the people can't read the Quran enough to prove him wrong, so they believe him and obey him, and that power leads to corruption. These are problems they are working on, along with re-inforcing the other Islamic traits of taking care of your fellow man, courtesy, charity, and the other positive parts of their teachings.

Maybe those in Iraq and Afghanistan are too shell shocked and overwhelmed to even think, much less change things, I don't know. I don't know the psychology of people who have lived in a war zone and I hope to never experience it. I'm reading a book by a man who lived through the holocaust, and he explains a lot about how people's thinking changes in long term crisises like war, so I know they are not in a position to be judged. They are overwhelmed and can barely think through the current hour's survival, much less form peace societies. I have heard that the Christian groups in Iraq have had an amazing amount of converts daily, because so many don't know how to change things, but they know there needs to be a big change, so that is what some of them are doing.

Blessings to you Elphaba. I love your genius mind.

Penlady

Thank you for explaining these things PenLady.

You have opened my eyes to things I was not aware of.

Onyx

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This question was asked at the symposium I attended, and the answer I was given is that Muslims have indeed condemned Al Qaida, terrorism, and fanatic Islam. However, when they do so, one of two things happens:

1. They are called liars, or accused of being ignorant to what their religion really teaches--then asked to respond to snippets of the Qur'an or radical commentary that appears hateful and violent. (Maybe some LDS here might sympathize?).

2. Their criticism goes unreported. Muslim interests do not own FOX News, after all.

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I just stated skimming this thread. This statement:

Extreme or fundamentalist anything is wrong, (including mormonism, and Christianity) it alienates our brothers and sisters, and breeds contention.

made me laugh. This sentence was stated as if it wasn't an "extreme" position.
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Dr. T, and others, see if this makes sense as a definition of the various schools of Islam.

The situation: In a Muslim neighborhood, there is a Muslim video shop owner who is renting out pornographic movies. How do you exercise jihad in this circumstance?

Moderate Islam (perhaps 80%): I do not go into that store, and certainly do not rent pornographic videos.

Fundamentalists Islam (Perhaps 29%): I will go to that Muslim brother and strongly urge him to stop selling pornography.

Radical 'jihadist' Islam (maybe 1%): I will wait until the shop closes (or not), and throw a pipe bomb into that store--so that all will be afraid to offend Allah by viewing such sinful material.

From this practical example, perhaps we can see that the fanatics are probably more dangerous to their fellow Muslims than they are to outsiders.

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Hi Dearest Elphaba

I LOVE the way you think, and yup, I get it! And I love the concept of how pitiful it is that we have to decide between a "safe" Muslim and a "dangerous" Muslim.

I agree. It's despicable and I hate it.

I can't tell you much about what the people are doing in Iraq and Afghanistan, but in my line of work (proofreading translations from<snip> Muslim languages for UK legal system), I can tell you that there are HUGE organizations growing daily in UK and USA and Canada and Pakistan and other Muslim countries that

I cannot tell you how happy I am to hear this. I definitely will be looking into Dr. Naik's website, and hope there is some small, or large, thing I can do to contribute. I adamantly believe no one can stop this insanity except Muslims. Of course vulnerable Muslims are not going to listen to anyone else, just as Christians would look askance at Hindus if they came along and told the Christians how to govern, police, legislate, etc.,

However, I still want to hear more. I've read your's and PC's posts, and I am discouraged. First I am angry because the "moderate Muslim" does not do enough, and then you tell me of great workings going on, and then I read of the roadblocks. I assume the roadblocks keep many from joining in what you call a "revolution of good."

But they mustn't stop. I know that sounds incredibly presumptuous of me. But if they stop, the world blows up. I can only imagine what they're up against. But they are the only ones who can does this. It sounds like I'm talking to the choir, so I'll just say I'm grateful to those who realize this and the price they are paying. And that I hope more and more come to realize how important it is for them to become involved.

There has never been a world-wide set of standardized teachings for most of what Islam believes, just a small part of it. Each separate little area seems to develop their own beliefs, and now they are seeing that they need<snip>Islamic traits of taking care of your fellow man, courtesy, charity, and the other positive parts of their teachings.

Yes, I am aware of this and it is one of the reasons I am so very discouraged. It basically means a more backward-Muslim man can take whatever interpretation his little world uses and apply it to the women in his life. I realize that's only one of the problems inherent in this huge, incomprehensible problem of finding some standardization. But in the meantime, 14-year-old girls are being stoned to death. I have no patience for that. And I see nothing that is going to change that, even if Al-Quada and the Taliban and every evil dictatorship on the globe disappears. As long as the law of Sharia exists, women will be at the very least oppressed, and at the worst, murdered at the whim of a man. What can you say to me about that? I know your heart is with Islam and that you love people who would never do this. But there are men, of Islam, who will continue to treat women like animals and it will be legal because of Hadith and Sharia.

I feel so conflicted. I want Muslims to feel safe and wanted and loved and cradled by this world. And then I think of the women. And yes, I know it's only, relatively, a small percentage who are beheaded, stoned, whipped, etc. in the name of Islam. But it IS in the name of Islam. Help me with that, please.

Maybe those in Iraq and Afghanistan are too shell shocked and overwhelmed to even think, much less change things, I don't know. I don't know the psychology of people who have lived in a war zone and I hope to never experience it. I'm reading a book by a man who lived through the holocaust, and he explains a lot about how people's thinking changes in long term crisises like war, so I know they are not in a position to be judged. They are overwhelmed and can barely think through the current hour's survival, much less form peace societies. I have heard that the Christian groups in Iraq have had an amazing amount of converts daily, because so many don't know how to change things, but they know there needs to be a big change, so that is what some of them are doing.

Oh, Penlady. You have no idea how many days I have sat and sobbed for the Iraqi people who are so traumatized by this war. I feel an obligation to look at the pictures, especially at the children, and I'm overwhelmed with anguish. I have talked about it often on this board--search for my posts and read them if you like. I think you'd find them interesting. My compassion has no bounds.

However, I have made a promise not to discuss the war on the board anymore, and I will keep that promise. Just know that I agree with you completely.

Elphaba

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Elph,

However, I have made a promise not to discuss the war on the board anymore, and I will keep that promise. Just know that I agree with you completely.

Wait, by "not talking about it" and "agree[ing] with you completely" are you still not really talking about it? :lol:

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Elph,

However, I have made a promise not to discuss the war on the board anymore, and I will keep that promise. Just know that I agree with you completely.

Wait, by "not talking about it" and "agree[ing] with you completely" are you still not really talking about it? :lol:

Auuugghhh!

Well, I'm trying NOT to!

Okay, from now on I'm going to say "I can't talk about that. Ask Dr. T. He'll explain it."

hehehehehe

Elphaba

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I went to an open-concept elementary school with a bunch of teachers who were trained in the 1960s. Besides, truth is subjective. What's 100 to me, might be 110 to you. Who's to say who's right or wrong? In fact, so long as it works for me, isn't that what matters?

(Sorry...just in a post-modernist funk tonight. :-)

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