Abortion and the Women’s March


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Guest MormonGator
6 minutes ago, zil said:

 is used as a term of endearment

I know a guy who calls his daughter "pancakes" because he says she "smells like pancakes". It's adorable, actually. 

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Guest MormonGator
1 minute ago, zil said:

Statistically speaking, the average person can't help being mean.

I actually agree with you. That's why the skill of being able to quash your mean side (and we all have it) is so valuable. The most successful people in life find a way to get along with everyone. Valuable skill to have.

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17 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

I actually agree with you. That's why the skill of being able to quash your mean side (and we all have it) is so valuable. The most successful people in life find a way to get along with everyone. Valuable skill to have.

Dude.  Let me help you out here, Mr. English Major:

20 minutes ago, zil said:

Statistically speaking, the average person can't help being mean.

:)

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Guest MormonGator
24 minutes ago, zil said:

Dude.  Let me help you out here, Mr. English Major:

:)

Oh, I got that part. Just thought we agreed that I would ignore your bad puns. And we agreed that my proper titles are "Sir", "Amir", or "Your Grace and Majesty".

Edited by MormonGator
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1 hour ago, MormonGator said:

Oh, I got that part. Just thought we agreed that I would ignore your bad puns. And we agreed that my proper titles are "Sir", "Amir", or "Your Grace and Majesty".

I've just realized, Your Grace and Majesty, that I like every letter in the alphabet except one - "U". :P

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4 hours ago, estradling75 said:

Sigh... now you are explicitly defending yourself about something I said explicitly said did not happen.  This is why I will no longer discuss things with you.. you are to busy trying to be right then actually listening.  Good bye

Yep.

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17 hours ago, anatess2 said:

So, several Never Trumper Mormon friends of mine marched in our citiy's downtown for the Women's March.  None of them marched on the March for Life.  So I asked them, why not march for life?  And they said.... Oh, it's a pro-Trump march.

Is this what we've become? We abandon our principles just because it happens to align with the political figure you're against?

To an objective observer it would sound like Donald Trump is a pretty divisive president, wouldn't it. To be more precise I would say, yes this is certainly what we've become. But it didn't happen over night, or over the last 8 years, or even the last 30 years. In fact, it doesn't even matter when it began. It only matters that it's getting worse. And it matters that so may of us are (perhaps unwittingly, or perhaps without really caring--I can't say for sure) are feeding it and helping it worsen.

Edited by Mike
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7 hours ago, anatess2 said:

Okay, I'll bite and beat this dead horse as oftentimes happen between estradling and I.

The issue is - friends of mine who are Pro-Life did not attend the Pro-Life March because they believe it is pro-Trump.

Now, what principle did these women stand on and got attacked for it?  Let's relate it to Jag and I... what principle did JAG stand on that I attacked?  Did JAG say he is against rape and I attacked him for being against rape?  Did JAG say he is pro free trade and I attacked him for being for free trade?  That is not the case.  Rather, when JAG said he is against rape that's why he doesn't support Trump I told him Trump is not for rape either and I rejected the position that Trump is a rapist no less abhorrent than Bill Clinton.  I didn't tell him he needs to abandon his anti-rapist principles.  When JAG said he is for free trade that's why he doesn't support Trump I told him Trump is for free trade as well.  When JAG said he is not for Trump because Trump is not a conservative, I told him, yep, Trump can barely spell conservative but he is a pragmatist with conservative instincts.  I did not tell him to abandon any of those principles.  JAG did state that Trump is a bad model for a Republican, twice divorced, scandalous life, can't spell Corinthians.  I told him I have no problem with it.  I did not tell him to not have a problem with it.  I did tell him it's terrible to vote for Hillary because of that just to keep the Republican image pure. 

Now, these friends of mine who did not march for life because it is pro-Trump.... Trump is pro-life.  Do you understand where the comment is coming from?

Now, let's see what I saw from the other side.  There's no question that I'm a Trump supporter.  Yet, people here called Trump Supporters white supremacists, racists, bigots, sexists... you know the drill.

It's unfortunate to have these four- and six-month-old disputes brought up now, when @anatess2 and I have achieved a sort of detente.  

Suffice it to say:  I stand by every. single. word of our exchanges regarding Trump, which are a matter of public record and subject to forum searches.  I'm not quite so sure I have quite as much an affinity for your characterization of my role in those exchanges. ;) 

The major principle I stood on, time and again, was the importance of character as spelled out in D&C 98; and Trump's lack thereof.  I think the closest I have come to any sort of ad hominem on that topic, is when I concluded that Trump's most ardent apologists simply don't consider D&C 98 to be as important as the advancement of their preferred political agenda at this particular moment in time.  Moreover, I did point out the evidence that Trump is a sexual predator--evidence that was never satisfactorily rebutted.  I also questioned his commitment to ideological conservatism--a concern that your focus on "pragmatism" to some extent bears out.  I can't find that I have ever, on these forums, mentioned either book of Corinthians in connection with Trump.  (I have noted his going on record as stating that he had never felt a need for divine forgiveness.)

And yes, I did defend Hillary Clinton against specific charges that struck me as unfair and/or poorly grounded in fact.  And my recollection is that no one at the time bothered to address my concerns and explain why the accusations were actually appropriate; they just took the fact that I dared to defend Clinton at all as prima facie evidence of my being a closet liberal.  I have also, in various fora (not here so much, just for lack of time), defended Trump's actions over the past week--not because I have any particular liking for the guy; but because some of the attacks on him (like some of those made against Clinton earlier) are just so patently full of horse manure that they just beg to be debunked.  So, make of that what you will.

In a more topical vein, though--I have a hard time seeing how this year's March for Life could have been interpreted as a pro-Trump event.  I liked the idea of a women's march against Trump, given who and what I believe he is.  But unfortunately, it was co-opted by interests who a) don't really care if a sexual predator is in the White House so long as he has a "D" after his name; b) tried to channel sincere horror at Trump's victimization of women, into some sort of pro-abortion bloodlust; and c) have a crass, sexually-mercenary view of "feminism" that is anathema to everything Just_A_Girl and I want our daughters to become.

Edited by Just_A_Guy
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15 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

It's unfortunate to have these four- and six-month-old disputes brought up now, when @anatess2 and I have achieved a sort of detente.  

Suffice it to say:  I stand by every. single. word of our exchanges regarding Trump, which are a matter of public record and subject to forum searches.  I'm not quite so sure I have quite as much an affinity for your characterization of my role in those exchanges. ;) 

The major principle I stood on, time and again, was the importance of character as spelled out in D&C 98; and Trump's lack thereof.  I think the closest I have come to any sort of ad hominem on that topic, is when I concluded that Trump's most ardent apologists simply don't consider D&C 98 to be as important as the advancement of their preferred political agenda at this particular moment in time.  Moreover, I did point out the evidence that Trump is a sexual predator--evidence that was never satisfactorily rebutted.  I also questioned his commitment to ideological conservatism--a concern that your focus on "pragmatism" to some extent bears out.  I can't find that I have ever, on these forums, mentioned either book of Corinthians in connection with Trump.  (I have noted his going on record as stating that he had never felt a need for divine forgiveness.)

And yes, I did defend Hillary Clinton against specific charges that struck me as unfair and/or poorly grounded in fact.  And my recollection is that no one at the time bothered to address my concerns and explain why the accusations were actually appropriate; they just took the fact that I dared to defend Clinton at all as prima facie evidence of my being a closet liberal.  I have also, in various fora (not here so much, just for lack of time), defended Trump's actions over the past week--not because I have any particular liking for the guy; but because some of the attacks on him (like some of those made against Clinton earlier) are just so patently full of horse manure that they just beg to be debunked.  So, make of that what you will.

In a more topical vein, though--I have a hard time seeing how this year's March for Life could have been interpreted as a pro-Trump event.  I liked the idea of a women's march against Trump, given who and what I believe he is.  But unfortunately, it was co-opted by interests who a) don't really care if a sexual predator is in the White House so long as he has a "D" after his name; b) tried to channel sincere horror at Trump's victimization of women, into some sort of pro-abortion bloodlust; and c) have a crass, sexually-mercenary view of "feminism" that is anathema to everything Just_A_Girl and I want our daughters to become.

And this is really my point.  There was never a time - not even on the rape allegations - that I expressed for you to abandon your principles.  The whole entire exchange has all been about you presenting a principle that you feel Trump opposes and me trying to show you how that principle plays out with Trump.  That was the point I was trying to convey to estradling.

The Clinton one was the one that I completely dismissed and didn't even bother to address.  There is no question about Hillary's role in Benghazi, her private server, and the Clinton Foundation.  I didn't think of you nor expressed that you're a closet liberal.  Rather, I was of the impression that your intense dislike of Trump was such that it brought you to defending the indefensible Clinton.  That to me was an indication that my objective of fighting the Trump false narratives just became immensely more difficult, almost impossible.

In any case, this is the case of all Trump supporters - we took it from all sides, including those who were our lifelong allies.  It was different in previous elections when all that ended at the RNC and then we only had to face one opposition in the general.  This time, we're still having to defend ourselves post election!  For example, we have to defend ourselves again about Tillerson and this travel restriction.  If there's one thing apparent with Trump so far, it's that there are no surprises.  He is doing exactly what he said he was going to do.  So, everything he has done so far are stuff that everybody who voted for him voted on.  Usually, it's - ok, he won, so let's see if his plan actually works.  So then the daggers wouldn't come until it fails... especially from his side of the aisle.  But no, this time, everything he does gets protested, obstructed, etc.  And Trump stands seemingly alone on the top of the mountain because, as of today, he only has 2 other cabinet secretaries working.  The Democrats just boycotted 2 of the Senate Hearings - Sessions and Price.  BOYCOTTED.  Screeched to a halt.

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17 hours ago, Mike said:

To an objective observer it would sound like Donald Trump is a pretty divisive president, wouldn't it. To be more precise I would say, yes this is certainly what we've become. But it didn't happen over night, or over the last 8 years, or even the last 30 years. In fact, it doesn't even matter when it began. It only matters that it's getting worse. And it matters that so may of us are (perhaps unwittingly, or perhaps without really caring--I can't say for sure) are feeding it and helping it worsen.

You're right.  It's been there for decades.  But, it's now more in everybody's consciousness because of the advent of the information age.

I have this happen to me just last month - my son's class has a Parents FB Group.  It was started to get everybody up to date on PTA announcements, homework help, fundraisers, etc.  Well, my son failed 1st semester in this particular class.  This class is my son's strongest skillset - English Language Arts.  Normally, he aces this class and gets high scores on the state assessment tests.  Yet, he got an F.  He said he refuses to do work for this teacher (long story).  Anyway, I posted a question on the FB Group on how to sign up for Virtual School for ELA and it triggered a rant against the teacher from several parents.  From all the back and forth in that thread, it gave me the impression that everybody wanted to get out of that class too!  So then I had a meeting with the Principal and mentioned the problems a lot of parents are having and come to find out... there were only 6 parents who filed complaints - still a significant number but not even remotely close to the 40 kids that are taking her ELA class.

So, what this taught me... the internet makes it sound like a horde even when there are only a very few of them...

 

Edited by anatess2
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