ROTC might move from BYU to UVU

[MrShorty]

Perhaps because the "should the WOW be updated" thread is still fresh on my mind, and a small part of that mentioned tea and coffee, this news story from the Daily Universe (BYU's newspaper) suggests that BYU's ROTC program will move across town to UVU, and a big part of the impetus to move is because BYU will not grant Col. Hardy (assigned by the DoD to head BYU's ROTC detachment) a coffee exception. http://universe.byu.edu/2017/01/26/air-force-rotc-may-leave-byu1/

I'm not sure what to think. Moving the ROTC across town is not really a big deal. The commute is short. I'm not sure what goes into moving these facilities. I have to think this isn't the first time this has come in up in the long history of ROTC at BYU, and I don't know how this has been handled in the past. I would not be too surprised if past non-LDS have signed the honor code, and had their coffee at home without telling anyone (which doesn't quite seem the spirit of signing and honor code).

Any reactions? Is BYU being too stubborn? Who cares?

Edited January 28, 2017 by MrShorty

[Vort]

It's AF ROTC, so no biggie.

[Jane_Doe]

11 hours ago, MrShorty said:

Perhaps because the "should the WOW be updated" thread is still fresh on my mind, and a small part of that mentioned tea and coffee, this news story from the Daily Universe (BYU's newspaper) suggests that BYU's ROTC program will move across town to UVU, and a big part of the impetus to move is because BYU will not grant Col. Hardy (assigned by the DoD to head BYU's ROTC detachment) a coffee exception. http://universe.byu.edu/2017/01/26/air-force-rotc-may-leave-byu1/

I'm not sure what to think. Moving the ROTC across town is not really a big deal. The commute is short. I'm not sure what goes into moving these facilities. I have to think this isn't the first time this has come in up in the long history of ROTC at BYU, and I don't know how this has been handled in the past. I would not be too surprised if past non-LDS have signed the honor code, and had their coffee at home without telling anyone (which doesn't quite seem the spirit of signing and honor code).

Any reactions? Is BYU being too stubborn? Who cares?

Do I suspect that some non-LDS people who have signed the Honor Code a secretly violated it?  Yep, I know some have.  Same with some LDS folks.  

Is the assigned captain being stubborn about this?  Yep.  Is BYU being stubborn?  Yep.  Do they both have fairly good motivation to be thus?  Yep.  Could Air Force assigned someone better for this stead?  Yep.

Besides the idle amusement, do I think this is remotely a big deal?  Nope.  Do I care?  Nope.

[Guest]

12 hours ago, MrShorty said:

I have to think this isn't the first time this has come in up in the long history of ROTC at BYU, and I don't know how this has been handled in the past. I would not be too surprised if past non-LDS have signed the honor code, and had their coffee at home without telling anyone (which doesn't quite seem the spirit of signing and honor code).

Actually, I would be surprised if the DoD had assigned a previous non-LDS PAS to the detachment.  

And I would be surprised if an AF Col. would sign such an honor code statement and did not abide by it.

[Jane_Doe]

8 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Actually, I would be surprised if the DoD had assigned a previous non-LDS PAS to the detachment.  

And I would be surprised if an AF Col. would sign such an honor code statement and did not abide by it.

It seems logical to assign an LDS commander who can better understand BYU culture/values, relate to undergrads, and more comfortably live there.  

[Vort]

1 hour ago, Jane_Doe said:

Besides the idle amusement, do I think this is remotely a big deal?  Nope.

This is the bottom line. My son at BYU is Army ROTC, and his take (and that of other ROTC personnel) is that it is manifestly not a big deal. Exactly the kind of thing the Trib likes to pick up on and blow up into some huge scandal. Where the ROTC administration is based, whether at BYU or at UVU, is pretty much a non-issue. If the AF lieutenant (or whatever his rank is) assigned to that duty doesn't like having to live by the BYU Honor Code in his own home -- and I can't say I really blame him -- then move the offices to UVU. Everyone's happy.

Edited January 29, 2017 by Vort

[MrShorty]

10 hours ago, Carborendum said:

And I would be surprised if an AF Col. would sign such an honor code statement and did not abide by it.

As I think about it, this is one of the things that stands out to me. How many honor code discussions around BYU/CES include something like "If you don't intend to abide by the honor code, don't sign it and go somewhere else." This is exactly what we see happening. It will be a little more convenient for a few UVU students, a little less convenient for a few BYU students, and life will go on.

[Maureen]

11 hours ago, Vort said:

...Exactly the kind of thing the Trib likes to pick up on and blow up into some huge scandal...

I just read the Trib's article about this story and they provided the same information that the BYU education article provided. Where's this scandal that you speak of?

M.

[anatess2]

12 hours ago, Maureen said:

I just read the Trib's article about this story and they provided the same information that the BYU education article provided. Where's this scandal that you speak of?

M.

Maureen, Vort did not say this article is blown up into a scandal.  Rather, he said it's what the SL Trib LIKES to pick up on to blow into a scandal.  So, scandal may or may not happen depends on how people react to it.  But the SL Trib would, of course, like to fan the scandal if the people rise up to the occasion.  That's why we like to call them the SL Tribulation.

But yeah, I also was not surprised that you jumped at the chance to defend the SL Trib...

[Traveler]

My personal experience in the military is that religious covenants are hardly tolerated and openly (though indirectly) discouraged.  Those who are devout in their religious covenants serving in the military will find mostly ignorance concerning their covenants and little if any desire for the command structure to become more informed.  In essence the idea is that any nail that stands out in the military culture will be hammered down.  This is not to say that there are not good honorable individuals that serve in the military – just that the command structure one serves under is all in the luck of the draw.  BTW the US Army is the most incompetent and most poorly run entity I have been associated with during my entire life.

For as long as there has been a ROTC program at BYU – I am stunned and amazed that this is the first time ever that the Trib news – could find something to make issue about.

 

PS – I had much more difficulty with language while serving and found that disrespectful references to deity was in essence standard military procedure.  Not to leave out the disrespect of virtue as a major obstacle for me as well.  Efforts to address this great prejudice and disrespect of religion was mostly rejected with various levels of distain.

 

The Traveler

Edited January 30, 2017 by Traveler

[Guest]

17 minutes ago, Traveler said:

My personal experience in the military is that religious covenants are hardly tolerated and openly (though indirectly) discouraged.  Those who are devout in their religious covenants serving in the military will find mostly ignorance concerning their covenants and little if any desire for the command structure to become more informed.  In essence the idea is that any nail that stands out in the military culture will be hammered down.  This is not to say that there are not good honorable individuals that serve in the military – just that the command structure one serves under is all in the luck of the draw.  BTW the US Army is the most incompetent and most poorly run entity I have been associated with during my entire life.

For as long as there has been a ROTC program at BYU – I am stunned and amazed that this is the first time ever that the Trib news – could find something to make issue about.

 

The Traveler

The experience is quite different from the other side.

While religious rivalries tend to be somewhat similar both in and out of the military, the interpersonal relationships are quite different.  Within the ranks, the general sentiment is this:

Quote

If you're a Mormon, be a good Mormon.

If you're a Catholic, be a good Catholic.

If you're a Methodist, be a good Methodist.

If you're a Jew, be a good Jew.

... -- from a speech given by a retired sergeant in 1988 (around the time of his retirement).

Yes, there was a time long ago where prejudice abounded.  But in the 80s and 90s the above mentioned was the norm.  Today?  Atheists are making more of a fuss than they should be because an officer chooses to keep a Bible open on his desk.  A lot of tension exists because of Muslims.  But Mormons?  Catholics?  Jews?  etc?  Not much.

Edited January 30, 2017 by Guest

[Maureen]

12 hours ago, anatess2 said:

Maureen, Vort did not say this article is blown up into a scandal.  Rather, he said it's what the SL Trib LIKES to pick up on to blow into a scandal.  So, scandal may or may not happen depends on how people react to it.  But the SL Trib would, of course, like to fan the scandal if the people rise up to the occasion.  That's why we like to call them the SL Tribulation.

But yeah, I also was not surprised that you jumped at the chance to defend the SL Trib...

Quite a few posters here like to discredit the Trib with these accusations without actually showing any proof. If these accusations are true it shouldn't be that difficult to show it.

M.

[anatess2]

1 minute ago, Maureen said:

Quite a few posters here like to discredit the Trib with these accusations without actually showing any proof. If these accusations are true it shouldn't be that difficult to show it.

M.

Except it wasn't an accusation from Vort.  It was an observation.  Are you asking for proof that SL Trib is hostile to the Church?

[Maureen]

2 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

Except it wasn't an accusation from Vort.  It was an observation.  Are you asking for proof that SL Trib is hostile to the Church?

I disagree, it reads like an accusation to me. And yes, show me any Trib article where it's obvious they are hostile to the LDS Church.

M.

[anatess2]

Just now, Maureen said:

I disagree, it reads like an accusation to me. And yes, show me any Trib article where it's obvious they are hostile to the LDS Church.

M.

Okay, I saw it differently, but I guess @Vort can clarify that.  As far as Trib articles... I'm not the right person to ask.  I've marked down the Trib as a liberal-biased news source much like the New York Times.  As there are better sources of news than SL Trib, I rarely look stories up in there unless I'm not finding it anywhere else.  I'm not interested in social news - like that big goopla about Women and the Priesthood that SL Trib splashed in their pages - I couldn't care less.

[MrShorty]

I know we don't like the trib as a source, but they have pursued this story, and here's their latest. http://www.sltrib.com/news/4968090-155/with-the-pentagon-on-the-telephone

According to their documents, it looks like the AF ROTC is moving forward with its decision to move HQ to UVU with BYU as a cross town school, and the Army ROTC will likely follow suit.

[Guest]

11 hours ago, MrShorty said:

I know we don't like the trib as a source, but they have pursued this story, and here's their latest. http://www.sltrib.com/news/4968090-155/with-the-pentagon-on-the-telephone

According to their documents, it looks like the AF ROTC is moving forward with its decision to move HQ to UVU with BYU as a cross town school, and the Army ROTC will likely follow suit.

I am beginning to understand a bigger picture.  We make up a small percentage of the population.  We are thus a small percentage of the military.  Those officers who achieve high ranking positions tend to have different goals.  And with the changing business climate, social climate, and political climate, many forces would drive a Mormon Colonel to other opportunities.  So, the ability to find a Mormon Colonel who is about ready for retirement who is suitable and willing to take this post is more and more difficult.  With the political climate saying that this is the military requiring a religious test for a position is going to be more and more difficult to ignore.

I believe this makes sense all around to move both ROTC units across town.