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Is Judas considered a good or bad figure? Without what he did there would be no atonement through Christs crucifixion.

or is there more i don't know/understand? 

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7 hours ago, pdale33 said:

Is Judas considered a good or bad figure? Without what he did there would be no atonement through Christs crucifixion.

or is there more i don't know/understand? 

Bad...

People tend be quick to state that God is all-knowing and all-powerful etc..etc..  But then forget the very simple implications of that.  We can not thwart the plan of God, the best we can do is cut ourselves off.  God is fully capable of bringing about his purpose with out our "help" (on the large scale a least. on the personal scale it is up to us)

When people learn about Satan's rebellion, Adam and Eve's transgression, and even Judas's betrayal... and see how God was able to have none of that thwart his plan but instead move it forward.  When they see that they think that because that was the way it was done... it was the only way God could have gotten it done.  And that is simply a false conclusion that denies the power and wisdom of God.

We can't let our limits in understanding, which is limited to what happened... Limit what God could have done, simply because we have no clue what it might have been.

 

 

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7 hours ago, pdale33 said:

Is Judas considered a good or bad figure? Without what he did there would be no atonement through Christs crucifixion.

or is there more i don't know/understand? 

He was bad, but far from the only one able, willing and ready to seek the destruction of Jesus.

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7 hours ago, pdale33 said:

Is Judas considered a good or bad figure? Without what he did there would be no atonement through Christs crucifixion.

or is there more i don't know/understand? 

Is this any different than killing innocent people at will?  If you kill them, they will go to heaven without having to deal with the trials and temptations of life.  But if you started doing that do you honestly believe you are a good person?

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I know where you are coming from. At first, it does sound confusing, doesn't it? 

In 8th grade, I asked my catechism teacher "If Judas was pre determined to betray Jesus, doesn't that mean that he is paying the price for salvation, given that he would surely be condemned to Hell for eternity for it?" (Yes, I was snotty and pretentious even back then). She stammered, danced around the question and never answered it. 

Remember though-Judas had free will, just like the rest of us did. He wasn't pre-determined to betray anyone. Anytime along the path, he could have chosen not to do what he did.  

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10 hours ago, pdale33 said:

Is Judas considered a good or bad figure? Without what he did there would be no atonement through Christs crucifixion.

or is there more i don't know/understand? 

I personally do not know - you are the first that has asked for my judgment in the matter.  I have no witness to give as I have no personal memory of anything he did or is currently doing.   I will leave judgment to those that feel so inclined.  In general I have come to understand it is not so much what a person has done but rather if they will repent or not.

 

The Traveler

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(New Testament | Luke 22:21 - 22)
21  ¶ But, behold, the hand of him that betrayeth me is with me on the table.
22  And truly the Son of man goeth, as it was determined: but woe unto that man by whom he is betrayed!
 

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19 hours ago, pdale33 said:

Is Judas considered a good or bad figure? Without what he did there would be no atonement through Christs crucifixion.

or is there more i don't know/understand? 

Bad. Using an opponents actions against you so to turn it around to be in your favor does not change your opponent......

Considering he later committed suicide there might be some hope for him, but that will be between him and God.

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Should I stand before G-d the Father to discuss my final eternal residence – should the option be heaven (Celestial Kingdom) and I discover that Judas was residing in that option – I would not refuse to become a citizen of heaven thinking it corrupt.  Rather I would accept Judas as a rightful heir and determine to be a loyal and faithful friend – the errors of his mortal existence would not be counted evil or bad by me.  To be honest I would rejoice and be grateful that his and my sins could so be overcome.

 

The Traveler

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2 hours ago, Traveler said:

 To be honest I would rejoice and be grateful that his and my sins could so be overcome.

Amen. 

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If I understand the real question, it is if the Atonement would have occurred if Judas had betrayed the Lord or not?

The answer is, the atonement would have occurred.  It is possible that the Lord would have even been apprehended at the Garden of Gethsemane, but several things may have happened.  Not knowing which individual he was, they may have rounded up ALL the apostles and if they refused to cooperate, killed them all.

It could have been that all the apostles would have fled (as they did) and the Lord would have remained alone, letting them know who he was without any betrayal.

It may be, that they would have found someone else who knew who the Lord was, and was willing to betray him.

It may be, that they would have apprehended the Lord, but it would have been slightly later than it was.

In any instance, I do not believe Judas's betrayal was necessary for the atonement or for the crucifixion to occur.  When people set their minds on something like that, they will invariably do everything they can to make it happen.

As it was, Judas made the decision to betray him and we know the rest of the story.

Judas himself is a warning.  He KNEW who the Lord was, just as much as Peter, James and John (and perhaps even moreso, as there are indications that he had been directly saved from sin previously).

He KNEW what the mission of the Lord was, and he was one of the close personal friends of the Lord.

Some scholars say that he, more than any of the others understood the Plan of Salvation, what the Lord's role in it was, and was then determined to try to thwart the plan and destroy it.

Knowing ALL this, he chose to try to destroy this mission.  He chose to directly fight against the salvation of mankind and ally himself with the enemies of the Lord.

Still, that's not what blows my mind.

At the Last Supper, the Lord KNEW what Judas had done.  He KNEW what was in store, and when revealed, Judas also would have KNOWN that the Lord knew the intents of his heart and the secret meetings and agreements.  That said, Judas STILL chose to go through with that.

Even more so, the LORD chose to continue with his mission, even KNOWING what Judas was going to do, Judas was doing, and what was to come.

That's where I staggered at the commitment and love the Lord has for us, and how much choice he hands to each and every one of us.

Edited by JohnsonJones

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