Something I can't wrap my head around


Guest
 Share

Recommended Posts

How can the 1/3 host of heaven that followed Lucifer be so stupid? They knew God well and knew His power yet they somehow thought following Lucifer and being damned to hell forever without ever receiving a body was a good idea. I understand agency but how can a 3rd part of heaven choose so poorly with so much on the line. At least when mortals choose poorly they have a veil blocking their memory so there's at least a good excuse, but the 3rd that followed Lucifer were with God and still stupid enough to rebel. I can't wrap my head around that.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Zarahemla said:

How can the 1/3 host of heaven that followed Lucifer be so stupid? They knew God well and knew His power yet they somehow thought following Lucifer and being damned to hell forever without ever receiving a body was a good idea. I understand agency but how can a 3rd part of heaven choose so poorly with so much on the line. At least when mortals choose poorly they have a veil blocking their memory so there's at least a good excuse, but the 3rd that followed Lucifer were with God and still stupid enough to rebel. I can't wrap my head around that.

Its not hard to imagine when we know how enticing sin and pride are. I doubt they really knew the ramifications at the time. God had warned them but they chose to disobey.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Zarahemla said:

How can the 1/3 host of heaven that followed Lucifer be so stupid? They knew God well and knew His power yet they somehow thought following Lucifer and being damned to hell forever without ever receiving a body was a good idea. I understand agency but how can a 3rd part of heaven choose so poorly with so much on the line. At least when mortals choose poorly they have a veil blocking their memory so there's at least a good excuse, but the 3rd that followed Lucifer were with God and still stupid enough to rebel. I can't wrap my head around that.

I agree that it was pride and the desire to trade agency for probation (or trade righteousness for an existence without opposition, as Cain tried to do) to get gain.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Zarahemla said:

How can the 1/3 host of heaven that followed Lucifer be so stupid? 

Actually, it's really not that hard to understand. From our optic, it looks stupid but in reality it was probably quite different.  All we need to do is look around at our current culture today-how many people today say there is no God? How many people believe the pre-marital sex is okay? How many people believe that we just need to be "good" (when good is generally defined as "do as I want as long as I don't really hurt someone else"?

If one studies history, one finds out that there are two sides to every story.  Studying Germany prior to WWII is a fascinating study, b/c if you approach it from their point of view you can really start to understand why some of the things happened the way they did.

My guess is the War in Heaven was no different. They probably didn't know (at least initially) they would never get a chance to gain a body.  It's probably like most things, when you pick the wrong side eventually there comes a point where you either decide you were wrong and repent of it or you dig your heels in even harder to win. And that's why IMO it's called the War in Heaven.  

I think we knew the Plan of Salvation as it had been explained-I think we were probably taught the entirely of the Gospel-but being taught the Gospel on an intellectual level-i.e. this is the "plan"- is quite different than actually carrying it out. And that is where the War probably happened, one side said Trust God this is what we are going to do, and the other side said, "I don't quite think that is going to work out the way you say it is". I don't think it was a singular event, I think it was probably a process that eventually devolved into a War.  War is just politics executed by violence instead of by words.  Prior to the actual War, my guess is a lot of politicking went on to convince each other.  I'm sure each of us knew and loved individuals who chose the wrong side. And when you get to the point where battle lines are drawn, you either win or you die.  And God certainly wasn't going to give in or He would cease to be God, so it was either they come to God's side or they takeover God and when it got to that point-it was kick 'em out.

But the above is just my musing, we really don't have much idea as to what really went on.

Edited by yjacket
Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

My opinion.  First off it appears to me that many study scripture at a surface level and seldom, if ever, consider much below the surface – or what we also call the “literal” meaning.  The ancient Hebrews did not understand much of number theory – but we should not fault them – neither did the Greeks or even the Romans.  One ancient society that understood number theory were a select few among the ancient Egyptians.  I will not go into a history lesson here other than to say that our modern society was well into the 19th century before we developed mathematical theory equivalent to these secret ancient Egyptians (I say secret but we could also call them protective of what they thought was divine and pure logic of G-d – mathematics).  Why do I bring this up?  Because the ancients that recorded what we know of the war in heaven did not understand fraction theory of numbers.  In short what many read as 1/3 are reading and understanding incorrectly.  What the scriptures say is that a third part followed Satan.  This means that heaven was divided into 3 parts.  One of the three parts (or groups) follow Satan.

That would leave a question as to what the other two groups are parts were.  Interestingly we are only told what one of the other parts were.  That part, G-d called the noble and great.  He identified them and said that he would make them his rulers.  We are left to speculate what the other group was – some speculate them to be “fence sitters”.  I think there is more to this.  It is interesting to me that following the flood of Noah that mankind was again divided into three groups in the three sons of Noah – Shem, Japheth, and Ham. 

Shem represents the Covenant (noble and great – or rulers of G-d - priesthood)

Japheth is given the title “Gentile”

Ham is given the title “Infidel” or the rebellious. (note that this group was held from - not given the priesthood)

Following the resurrection mankind is again divided into 3 groups.

Celestial – The covenant – rulers

Terrestrial – The good people (not evil) that are not valent in the convent - priesthood

Telestial – The rebellious that reject law – liars, adultery, murders.  

Note that I have left out the possible category of the sons and daughters of perdition.  I intended to do so because I believe that the reasons will only distract from this discussion.

I believe the reason for the rebellious are mostly out of context and there is very little revelation but this much I believe we need to understand – that not only do the rebellious not love and accept the covenants of the plan of salvation but they reject such covenants and those that follow the covenants they align themselves against these things even and especially because they have been taught of the covenants and know of them.  We can say it is pride but there are other attributes that also apply – such as hate and anger.  We learn from the Book of Mormon that there is opposition in all things.  The prime example of opposition is light and darkness.  We are told that the rebellious love darkness more than light.  I am of the notion that these expressions are mostly symbolic and are intended to explain a great many things; not just in the pre-existence of Heaven but here in mortality and in the resurrection.

 

The Traveler

Edited by Traveler
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Here is something to consider.  Our bodies provide filters.  Our spirits do not.  If we think something, it is immediately put into action (so much as is within our power at the moment).  That is my understanding.

So, we all have fleeting thoughts of sin or rebellion.  But we have filters that prevent us from acting out on them immediately.  They did not.

That's based on a not so certain belief about how spirits behave.  But it seems to fit.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

53 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Here is something to consider.  Our bodies provide filters.  Our spirits do not.  If we think something, it is immediately put into action (so much as is within our power at the moment).  That is my understanding.

So, we all have fleeting thoughts of sin or rebellion.  But we have filters that prevent us from acting out on them immediately.  They did not.

That's based on a not so certain belief about how spirits behave.  But it seems to fit.

 

I do not believe I understand your post.  I know for me, and I can only speak for me, 99% of all my thoughts are never acted upon.  I have lots of thoughts and ideas; that, as I consider them in any detail – I end up discarding them.  It is true that every action is preceded with a thought but it seems to me that thoughts are not, of necessity, followed by action.  For me, every temptation is initiated with a thought – but I do have the power to filter thoughts and it is my impression that such filtering takes place primarily because of my spirit – it seems to me that my physical self has very few, if any filters.

 

The Traveler

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, Traveler said:

I do not believe I understand your post.  I know for me, and I can only speak for me, 99% of all my thoughts are never acted upon.  I have lots of thoughts and ideas; that, as I consider them in any detail – I end up discarding them.  It is true that every action is preceded with a thought but it seems to me that thoughts are not, of necessity, followed by action.  For me, every temptation is initiated with a thought – but I do have the power to filter thoughts and it is my impression that such filtering takes place primarily because of my spirit – it seems to me that my physical self has very few, if any filters.

The Traveler

I skipped a phrase in the first sentence.  I was thinking faster than I was typing.

Quote

When we think something AS SPIRITS, it is immediately put into action.

This was based on a quote about what it is like in the spirit world.  That when we think about a place, we'd immediately be transported there.  That kind of thing.  With mortal bodies, we must actually call upon the body to move, then travel to the location, etc.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 2/26/2017 at 3:32 PM, Zarahemla said:

How can the 1/3 host of heaven that followed Lucifer be so stupid? They knew God well and knew His power yet they somehow thought following Lucifer and being damned to hell forever without ever receiving a body was a good idea. I understand agency but how can a 3rd part of heaven choose so poorly with so much on the line. At least when mortals choose poorly they have a veil blocking their memory so there's at least a good excuse, but the 3rd that followed Lucifer were with God and still stupid enough to rebel. I can't wrap my head around that.

It wasn't a choice based in intelligence or being "stupid", it was a choice based in one's spiritual character. Those that chose to follow Lucifer were of similar character. They did not have the capacity to give glory to another, to a Savior and therefore disqualified their self from the second estate test. If one cannot receive or give glory from another being but only from self achievement then one is not capable of receiving any degree of glory because it has to be given, it is not self acquired. This is why one of our most important commandments is to first love God and next love our neighbor as our self. Those spirits did not have the capacity for those two great commandments when given that agency, they argued to be given the glory in some other way which could not be done.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...
On February 26, 2017 at 3:32 PM, Zarahemla said:

How can the 1/3 host of heaven that followed Lucifer be so stupid? They knew God well and knew His power yet they somehow thought following Lucifer and being damned to hell forever without ever receiving a body was a good idea. I understand agency but how can a 3rd part of heaven choose so poorly with so much on the line. At least when mortals choose poorly they have a veil blocking their memory so there's at least a good excuse, but the 3rd that followed Lucifer were with God and still stupid enough to rebel. I can't wrap my head around that.

Hindsight is always 20/20. Either a) their hearts were turned or b) they truly believed they could achieve their cause in some manner or the other, or c) both the above. I imagine it is probably not too dissimilar from how people fall away from the gospel when that hapens even the small and simple things are not so obvious anymore.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On February 27, 2017 at 9:39 AM, Carborendum said:

Here is something to consider.  Our bodies provide filters.  Our spirits do not.  If we think something, it is immediately put into action (so much as is within our power at the moment).  That is my understanding.

So, we all have fleeting thoughts of sin or rebellion.  But we have filters that prevent us from acting out on them immediately.  They did not.

That's based on a not so certain belief about how spirits behave.  But it seems to fit.

Interesting concept.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Some excellent statements have been posted above me.  I don't have a ton to add to it. 

I would state that from what I believe, it wasn't just them falling away, it was a war.  It is a war that is STILL going on.  Normally, when people are on one side or another, they do not feel that they are going to lose.  They are fighting to win.  There is a possibility that they might think there is a chance to win at this war, or at least win something (that something being more souls, such as yours, mine, or others).  This war isn't over till they are cast out and we are free from them. 

At the beginning they may have truly thought that they had a good chance of being victorious.  Even now, lets say that they know they are going to lose, and it's basically set in stone...they already chose their side and they are probably out to do as much damage as they can before that occurs.  That side, just like opposing sides in many wars, probably hates us and those who serve the Lord with everything they can feel.  Even if given the opportunity to change sides at this point, it is likely many or most of them have enough hate for our side, or the Lords side, that they would never even consider it and would do all in their power to cause us pain, hurt, or even doom.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 2/27/2017 at 9:39 AM, Carborendum said:

Here is something to consider.  Our bodies provide filters.  Our spirits do not.  If we think something, it is immediately put into action (so much as is within our power at the moment).  That is my understanding.

So, we all have fleeting thoughts of sin or rebellion.  But we have filters that prevent us from acting out on them immediately.  They did not.

That's based on a not so certain belief about how spirits behave.  But it seems to fit.

How do you know where the thought came from, whether it is from spirit or body?  For example, the thought to sleep for the apostles in the Garden of Gethsemane was from the spirit or from the body?  It was the spirit that could not filter out the thought from the brain at that moment, not the other way around.  When one wants to eat during Fast Sunday, is that thought from the spirit or the brain? The spirit filters out the thought from the brain at that moment if one is successful with the fast.  We are dual natured, we have two competing thoughts while in this life, the test is to see which one we feed.  The most prominent thought pattern is from the brain, not the spirit.  It is difficult to discern the spirit's thoughts, to be spiritually minded.  It is more natural to be carnally minded. The default thought pattern in this life is from the brain, not the spirit. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Zarahemla 

In my opinion this story is strictly metaphorical.  This idea of evil being 1/3 exists in various cultures.  This metaphor concerns the battle between good and evil.  Evil exists, but only enough to give Goodness a run for its money.  In the end, Goodness always triumphs.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Seek said:

@Zarahemla 

In my opinion this story is strictly metaphorical.  This idea of evil being 1/3 exists in various cultures.  This metaphor concerns the battle between good and evil.  Evil exists, but only enough to give Goodness a run for its money.  In the end, Goodness always triumphs.

Chicken. Egg.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...
On 3/20/2017 at 7:45 AM, Seek said:

@Zarahemla 

In my opinion this story is strictly metaphorical.  This idea of evil being 1/3 exists in various cultures.  This metaphor concerns the battle between good and evil.  Evil exists, but only enough to give Goodness a run for its money.  In the end, Goodness always triumphs.

Why do you believe this is metaphorical? Is it not logical to conclude that the concept of being 1/3 evil exists in many cultures because it is a truth that was passed down from the beginning and remained mixed in the culture of many fallen societies.

Quote

D&C 29:36 
And it came to pass that Adam, being tempted of the devil—for, behold, the devil was before Adam, for he rebelled against me, saying, Give me thine honor, which is my power; and also a third part of the hosts of heaven turned he away from me because of their agency;

Those are the actual words of the Lord.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 3/29/2017 at 5:19 PM, NeuroTypical said:

Maybe they thought they would win.

Maybe they thought they would lose what they supposed they had, they weren't willing to take a chance.  Despair, hopelessness, feeling like its not worth the effort are pretty powerful tools of the devil.   Definition of lose by Webster; " to miss from one's possession or from a customary or supposed place "

If one cannot live by the admonition of Paul, to hope for all things and endure all things, then by definition they take their self off the path of happiness.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yeah. Seems pretty simple to me. All it would have taken is the acceptance of a very basic premise -- God is a liar. If one accepted that, then the rest is easy.

We also have to remember that the war was between principles presented by two acclaimed and glorious beings. Lucifer wasn't a nobody.

And, it is also reasonably that God didn't "prove" that Jesus was right because doing so wouldn't have been the proper 1st estate test.

Finally, when I see the ease with which otherwise intelligent people accept philosophies that make no sense, have been shown, historically, to fail, etc. (I'm thinking leftist politics, just in case anyone is wondering), it's not hard for me to believe that otherwise intelligent spirits bought into the seemingly convincing, emotion laden arguments of Satan.

"If God truly loved us he'd save everyone. It's all about 'love'. True love would tolerate sin." And so forth. Bleeding heart philosophies that so many cling to so dearly nowadays. I can just imaging the chanting spirit crowds with their protest signs, screaming profanities about the Savior and his plan of "hate".

I mean, if you think about it, the principles that are slowly coming to dominate political thinking (leftist values) are the exact same ones that Satan was selling (@JohnsonJones pointed out that the war is still going on. It is. And it's the same war over the same principles). Those primary principles being equality of outcome (everyone is saved), and the elimination of consequence for moral choice.

Edited by The Folk Prophet
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The ultimate in pride is defying reality because it does not conform to your wishes. Yet we see this on a daily basis. Indeed, today's "progressive" Leftists have built an entire movement around routinely denying basic facts and principles of biology.

Given how many seemingly "impossible" things humanity has managed to accomplish -- airplanes, moon rockets, society itself -- it can be tempting to assume that anything is possible. But as we have discussed elsewhere, anything is not possible when "anything" includes self-negating terms. Thus, we cannot be saved in sin, or have a sinful God. Evil cannot be good.

To me, it is not that difficult to believe that many spirits in premortality, beguiled by "Lucifer"'s apparent beauty and in the throes of debilitating hubris, defied the Almighty himself to insist on a change of conditions -- a change that sought to render glory and honor to their leader.

Back around 1930, the mathematician Kurt Gödel stood the mathematical world on its ear when he proved that "all consistent axiomatic formulations of number theory include undecidable propositions" -- that is, any sufficiently complex system has the ability to negate itself. This shattered the very foundations of mathematical thought, which assumed as obvious that all mathematics could be reduced to a set of self-sustaining axioms. One might well conclude that the spirits of men form such a "sufficiently complex system", and that the lost third constitute a part of that self-negating group.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...
On 2/26/2017 at 4:32 PM, Zarahemla said:

How can the 1/3 host of heaven that followed Lucifer be so stupid? They knew God well and knew His power yet they somehow thought following Lucifer and being damned to hell forever without ever receiving a body was a good idea.

Read Old Testament stories, I wondered how the Israelites could be so stupid at times too.  One moment they walk through the middle of the Red Sea, later they are creating a golden calf.

But the truth is, we are just as stupid.  Despite a connection to God we will still make mistakes because of our fallen nature.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
 Share