I owe $15,000 in tithing, Can I pay it elsewhere?


danny1042
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On 3/9/2017 at 3:48 PM, danny1042 said:

Hey there, I owe about $15,000 in tithing from this last year. Its in my bank account right now set aside...My question is I would like to pay my 10% to a different entity other than the church. I would rather give it to an organization where i can SEE with my own eyes the impact I'm having or even participate myself! For example, there are villages in the jungles where the people have no clean running water and for about $1,200 you can get a pump and well there to supply the entire village. Or what about schools or hospital clinics or entrepreneurial programs where they can be a farmer or something to help people get self-sufficient? I want to actually HELP. The church as billions of dollars and I don't think another 10-15K is gonna make any difference and frankly, I don't really care about building more church buildings with no decor and with classrooms that look like jail cells.  ( that's a whole other conversation) The church has plenty of money for that while there are people genuinely with nothing in the jungles and remote locations in different countries. ( I want to see how MY MONEY is directly affecting someone) 

Before you even think about judging me, (if you do YOU are the one that needs to repent) If I gave my 10% over there, I don't believe for ONE MINUTE that Jesus is gonna be mad at me for doing that. I don't believe for one min that I'll "miss my blessings" I'm still giving my 10% and its for helping the poor and needy and afflicted which is CHRISTIANITY AT ITS FINEST in case any of you forget that while doing "the Mormon commandment checklist schedule" (also, that's a whole other conversation) My heart is in the right place and I genuinely want to help people and see how my money is making a difference out there instead of being a tithing check writing sheep thinking nothing of my offering which is how Ive been in the past and probably how a lot of others feel) Just being honest...

Any thoughts? ( 

If any of you have a legitimate organization where I can do something like this please comment below. 

I think it is honorable the fact that you are seeking to help the poor and needy. Indeed, there are millions of people in remote villages without access to clean water who would benefit greatly if they get a pump, it will be life-saving!

Having said that, I do not believe the Church will see it as tithing (but again, it doesn't seem like you care what they think?). Certainly, I don't see it as tithing. I see it as donating your money towards a truly admirable cause that could benefit lots of people.

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1 hour ago, unixknight said:

I've been told (by a Bishop) that you can catch up the back amount if you want to, but all that's required is to make an honest effort to be current now and stay that way.  It's a huge burden to worry about past stuff.

Makes the calculations so much easier; since I don't get paid on Sundays, I just write off everything up until that morning and toss in a nickel to cover any interest my accounts might be earning that day.  Problem solved.

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2 hours ago, MormonGator said:

I think he raises a good question, even though he doesn't realize it. If you haven't paid tithing in a year or so and want to restart, should you just start over or do you have to worry about the debt? 

If one is LDS and intends on keeping the commandments?

That depends on which tithing option you go with.  AS per the Handbook of instruction, members can choose to pay their tithing annually.  If it's been a year, you can decide that you are an annual payer instead of one that does it paycheck to paycheck, weekly, monthly or another way which members decide to pay their tithing.  (also, today, people don't even have to give it to their Bishopric, they can pay it directly via online).

If it's been longer than a year, it really is up to you.  The question when asked, is for you to seek out with the spirit to determine if you are a full tithe payer or not.

Early in the church one could pay catch up with their tithing, and in some instances it was expected.  Today, we have no such indications that this is required, and we really have only a little guidance on what is considered a full tithe.  That is normally up to the individual member to decide what type of tithe payer they are.

I'd say, if it were ME (and that's really the only opinion I can really share that will be completely accurate in this instance in regards to this question, at least from me) the first step I'd take is to start paying tithing regularly.  That means, on my next paycheck, I'd pay the tithe on my current earnings.  Whether I decide to do that annually, monthly, or weekly, as long as it is regularly and current on my current earnings, I think that would satisfy the requirement for being a full tithe payer.

However, when the Bishop asks at the tithing settlement, normally it is in regards to the past year.  So if it were asked in December 2016, it would be asking if one was a full tithe payer for the year of 2016.

Of course, this is my opinion on the matter, as in many ways, there is nothing absolutely dictated on the matter.  It is more an issue between one and the Lord (IMO of course).

Edited by JohnsonJones
Adding the thing where people can pay online.
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30 minutes ago, NightSG said:

Makes the calculations so much easier; since I don't get paid on Sundays, I just write off everything up until that morning and toss in a nickel to cover any interest my accounts might be earning that day.  Problem solved.

If that is what you feel is right between you and the Lord...more power to you.

Of course, normally the assumption at tithing settlement, is that when you are being asked is if you were a full tithe payer for all that you should have paid tithing for over the course of that year, and not just paying for that current day...

But, the interviews are not supposed to go into detail, the only question is whether you are a full tithe payer or not.

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45 minutes ago, JohnsonJones said:

If that is what you feel is right between you and the Lord...more power to you.

Of course, normally the assumption at tithing settlement, is that when you are being asked is if you were a full tithe payer for all that you should have paid tithing for over the course of that year, and not just paying for that current day...

But, the interviews are not supposed to go into detail, the only question is whether you are a full tithe payer or not.

The bishop is not an idiot. If he sees a man living reasonably well and sees $0 tithing (or $100, or $1000), he is unlikely to accept that the interviewee is a "full tithe payer".

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2 hours ago, MormonGator said:

I think he raises a good question, even though he doesn't realize it. If you haven't paid tithing in a year or so and want to restart, should you just start over or do you have to worry about the debt? 

Your bishop would likely counsel you to just start paying tithing and not worry about "back tithing", as some might think it.

My opinion is that we have covenanted to live a consecrated life, and one relatively small part of that consecration is tithing. I want to pay my tithing. If I miss paying part of it, I want to pay it. Maybe it's perfectionism or OCD or something, but that's what I think. Or more precisely, that's how I feel.

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13 minutes ago, Vort said:

Your bishop would likely counsel you to just start paying tithing and not worry about "back tithing", as some might think it.

My opinion is that we have covenanted to live a consecrated life, and one relatively small part of that consecration is tithing. I want to pay my tithing. If I miss paying part of it, I want to pay it. Maybe it's perfectionism or OCD or something, but that's what I think. Or more precisely, that's how I feel.

For the record, I only owe 5,000 in back tithing pal. The compound needed some upgrades. 

Edited by MormonGator
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30 minutes ago, Vort said:

The bishop is not an idiot. If he sees a man living reasonably well and sees $0 tithing (or $100, or $1000), he is unlikely to accept that the interviewee is a "full tithe payer".

The bishop is not an idiot, but it really depends on the Bishop.  The Bishop is a judge, but there are specific questions and things to ask.  Some Bishops do really bad things in some instances, others do some really good things.  It depends on how strictly the Bishop follows the guidance that has been handed out, to be honest, and how much that Bishop feels like bending the rules.

The only real question is whether or not that individual is a full tithe payer, with the result being between the individual and the Lord.  If it is obvious, then the Bishop may make a judgement, but that needs to be guided by the spirit rather than the Bishop really just thinking something.  There are those out there that have no income and nothing of the sort that live relatively well.  Just about every one of the 13 and 14 years olds from well off homes in my ward do...and some of the college age students have that same situation...and so and and so forth.

Living well is no indication of how much they are making or receiving in many cases.

My take, is unless something really strikes me from the spirit, the best course of action is to let it be between the individual member and the Lord, as that is who they are ultimately lying to or being honest with (as well as themselves).

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On 10/03/2017 at 10:48 AM, danny1042 said:

Hey there, I owe about $15,000 in tithing from this last year. Its in my bank account right now set aside...My question is I would like to pay my 10% to a different entity other than the church. I would rather give it to an organization where i can SEE with my own eyes the impact I'm having or even participate myself! For example, there are villages in the jungles where the people have no clean running water and for about $1,200 you can get a pump and well there to supply the entire village. Or what about schools or hospital clinics or entrepreneurial programs where they can be a farmer or something to help people get self-sufficient? I want to actually HELP. The church as billions of dollars and I don't think another 10-15K is gonna make any difference and frankly, I don't really care about building more church buildings with no decor and with classrooms that look like jail cells.  ( that's a whole other conversation) The church has plenty of money for that while there are people genuinely with nothing in the jungles and remote locations in different countries. ( I want to see how MY MONEY is directly affecting someone) 

 

Even a half experienced charity worker can tell you that prevevtion is better than cure. You can help to prevent my homelessness by contributing to my mortgage. Then I'll invite you to dinner so that you can see the effect your money is having.

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IMHO, tithing is the most important charity you can contribute to.

Jesus said, if you give a man a fish, you feed him for a day.  If you teach a man to fish, you feed him for life.

Tithing is all about spreading the gospel, be it through building churches, temples, helping to fund the missionary program, etc.  As President Benson said, when people learn the gospel, they are equipped with the tools to take themselves out of poverty in many cases.  Core church teachings have "fixes" to many of the things that keep people in poverty, including word of wisdom problems, relying too much on oneself and not enough on the Lord, chastity problems (e.g., single mothers on welfare), being idle, etc ...  there is structural poverty in some places, and the Church has other charities to help out in these areas.  But tithing is the most important of all charities run by the Church, because it goes to teaching men to fish rather than giving men fish.

What is most important, though, is whereas other charities are strictly to help people for the short time they are here on this Earth, tithing spreads the Gospel and therefore helps people for the rest of eternity outside of their brief 70 year lifetimes.  It is important to help people in their temporal circumstances.  However, it is far more important to help people regarding their eternal destinies, and tithing is the main charity to help in this area.  

All of this is administered by the Church.  The Church is led by Christ, and the promise is true that there will never again be a widespread apostasy.  Therefore, the Church is immune from corruption, including the corruption that one may see in other charities and even religious organizations.  It is the only organization in the world worthy of your full trust, and if you do not have that trust in the Church, you need to work on your testimony.  You can trust that tithing is being used for righteous and proper purposes. 

Please, please, please do not skimp on tithing.  Not only is your soul at stake, but potentially the souls of many others.

 

Edited by DoctorLemon
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Regardless of whether OP is sincere, I have seen this type of thinking before.  

Approximately one third of the missionaries in my old mission have left the Church.  Very few appear to have "traded up" to a religion they believe is more correct.  Most of them started with questioning the integrity of the church and asking questions like, "can i pay fast offerings instead of tithing to protest  (insert grievance here)?"  From there, these missionaries have slowly embraced secularism, and many are completely inactive or have turned to agnosticism even.  Some have fallen into deep sin and have lost wives, children, everything.  I am amazed and shocked with this development, that so many missionaries who were much more effective than me just 13 years ago could apparently completely turn away from God like that in such a short period of time.

If there is any truth at all to OP's post, I would beg him to take a long hard look at his life, his attitude towards the Church, his attitude towards God, his attitude towards life, everything, and sincerely pray with God about it.  I dont want him to be at judgment and realize he has lost his eternity for a mess of worldly pottage and the philosophies of men.  I have seen this too much among people I know and love, saying very similar things, and it is really, really sad.

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On 3/9/2017 at 5:48 PM, danny1042 said:

I would rather give it to an organization where i can SEE with my own eyes the impact I'm having . . .

I don't mean to sound harsh but that seems like a selfish desire to me.  Even so, it's not hard to see the good the church does with it's money if you look for it.  

 

 

Edited by cdw3423
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On 3/10/2017 at 10:55 AM, askandanswer said:

You're looking in the wrong place for an answer. I suggest you go to the General Conference section of lds.org and do a search using the word tithing. If you look long enough you will come to a told in General Conference many years ago where one of the apostles relates an incident, and his response, to almost exactly the same kind of situation that you are proposing. The prophetic response was different from your proposal.

 

 

I would love to see it do you remember the name of it? Thanks

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On 3/10/2017 at 5:40 PM, Vort said:

The bishop is not an idiot. If he sees a man living reasonably well and sees $0 tithing (or $100, or $1000), he is unlikely to accept that the interviewee is a "full tithe payer".

He may not accept that person as a full tithe payer but he would be incorrect in doing so.

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Guest MormonGator
2 hours ago, omegaseamaster75 said:

He may not accept that person as a full tithe payer but he would be incorrect in doing so.

Omega-does he have to accept it even if he has doubts? Asking because I'm totally ignorant on the subject. 

Edited by MormonGator
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On March 10, 2017 at 8:40 PM, Vort said:

The bishop is not an idiot. If he sees a man living reasonably well and sees $0 tithing (or $100, or $1000), he is unlikely to accept that the interviewee is a "full tithe payer".

Vort, I totally understand what you are saying but the reality is that you can never tell. I've met people who I thought were rolling in it because they have a nice car, nice house, nice watch-but in reality are only doing well because they get help from family. I've also met people who look very "poor" (for lack of a better word) but are doing quite well income wise. So you never know. 

None of this is an insult to a  bishop or to @Vort. Just my observations.  

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1 hour ago, MormonGator said:

Vort, I totally understand what you are saying but the reality is that you can never tell. I've met people who I thought were rolling in it because they have a nice car, nice house, nice watch-but in reality are only doing well because they get help from family. I've also met people who look very "poor" (for lack of a better word) but are doing quite well income wise. So you never know. 

None of this is an insult to a  bishop or to @Vort. Just my observations.  

This is very true. But, a bishop has discernment and can ask some questions to make sure the person understands tithing, what it means to be a full tithe payer, and may even be able to teach doctrine. So, yes, appearances can be deceiving, but sometimes they aren't. That isn't to say anyone is being malicious or sneaky, but sometimes people just don't understand things. I truly think that bishops only want to help people come closer to Christ, so asking questions during a tithing settlement isn't nefarious.

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2 minutes ago, beefche said:

This is very true. But, a bishop has discernment and can ask some questions to make sure the person understands tithing, what it means to be a full tithe payer, and may even be able to teach doctrine. So, yes, appearances can be deceiving, but sometimes they aren't. That isn't to say anyone is being malicious or sneaky, but sometimes people just don't understand things. I truly think that bishops only want to help people come closer to Christ, so asking questions during a tithing settlement isn't nefarious.

All true, agree word for word 100%. I agree totally that asking questions during a tithing settlement isn't nefarious in any way, shape, or form. 

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On 3/10/2017 at 4:12 PM, Suzie said:

I think it is honorable the fact that you are seeking to help the poor and needy. Indeed, there are millions of people in remote villages without access to clean water who would benefit greatly if they get a pump, it will be life-saving!

Having said that, I do not believe the Church will see it as tithing (but again, it doesn't seem like you care what they think?). Certainly, I don't see it as tithing. I see it as donating your money towards a truly admirable cause that could benefit lots of people.

 

Well thank you suzie! Its funny how out of all the "good people here" you are the first to start with a compliment instead of critism. Thanks your your feedback. 

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On 3/9/2017 at 7:55 PM, NeuroTypical said:

I personally pay my tithing, and then do other good things with other money.  I've given to the church's Humanitarian Aid fund for years.  Also their Perpetual Education fund.  One helps break the cycle of multigenerational poverty in poorer countries, the other helps people after a disaster.  

If you ain't sold on tithing, you might want to consider those two.

You want to see where the money goes and how it helps people?  Here - click the links. 

https://www.ldsphilanthropies.org/humanitarian-services/funds/humanitarian-general-fund.html

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865663385/Perpetual-Education-Funds-success-led-to-massive-expansion-of-LDS-effort-to-lift-the-poor.html

Just wanted to make sure you saw my post.  It neither complimented nor criticized you, just answered your question.  With a very valid answer, IMO.

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Guest MormonGator
1 hour ago, danny1042 said:

Well thank you suzie! Its funny how out of all the "good people here" you are the first to start with a compliment instead of critism. Thanks your your feedback. 

I apologize if some of our answers came out harsh or uncaring. 

Your original post could easily have been misread as condescending and overly defensive. Perhaps we all started off on the wrong foot. 

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