People Still ”Commit Suicide”


prisonchaplain
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The article below is one I am considering posting on a professional social media venue. However, it is a sensitive subject, so I thought I would vet it here first.  Thanks buddies!  :cool:

 

Kevin Caruso, of Suicide.org, says that since suicide is not a crime we must stop saying that people “commit suicide.” (http://www.suicide.org/stop-saying-committed-suicide.html) Is he right? What does it mean to say that suicide is not a crime? In the United States, suicide is not illegal. So, as a civil matter, Caruso is right. However, suicide is broadly considered sinful—a spiritual crime. Both Catholicism and Protestantism (especially more conservative denominations) call suicide “mortal sin,” or even “self-murder.” Islam and Judaism generally concur. Dharmic traditions (Hinduism, Buddhism, etc.) also consider suicide a negative and unacceptable act. Caruso dismisses all such considerations, and insists that, “Suicide is not sin!” (http://www.suicide.org/suicide-is-not-a-sin.html)

Instead of saying one commits suicide, Caruso prefers “death by suicide." He says the former term must be expunged from our vocabulary, because it is insensitive and stigmatizing. No and yes. It is not insensitive to state what a person did. It may be disheartening and sad, but not insensitive. Is it not more thoughtless to remove the deceased’s sovereignty and volition, by making it seem that suicide is somehow visited upon them? On the other hand committing suicide brings stigma. They violate spiritual tenants, and they deprive loved ones of spouse, child, parent, or even lover.

“Well, they must have been crazy, so it’s not their fault.” There is a measure of truth in the statement. 30-70% of suicide completions involve depression or bipolar disorder. Of course, this means that 30-70% do not. Even amongst those who suffer from mental illness, we wonder if disease forces them to kill themselves. How much of the act is uncontrollable and how much is choice?

Nobody wants survivors to experience unwarranted guilt. Likewise, broad brush condemnations and shaming have no place in suicide-survivor counseling. Jesus warned us not to judge, and we do well to leave the assessing of departed souls to God. Still, should we not discourage suicide attempts? Alcoholics suffer from an organic predisposition to their addiction. Nevertheless, we condemn alcohol abuse, because we know it leads to impaired driving and to verbal, mental and physical aggression. Likewise, even though “committing suicide” is not a felony, we must continue to say that it is wrong, bad, immoral, and that it hurts survivors.

The way to love sinners is not by dismissing the sinfulness of what they do. Instead, we love them for who they are. Then we encourage them away from self-harm and towards the better expression of their God-given potential.


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@beefche Mostly, to comment on the content. The big picture, imho, is that there is such a drive to remove stigma from so many sinful activities, and to label bad behavior as the result of disease or mental illness. This type of empathy dis-empowers us, turning us into victims--often of our own bodies.

So, am I wrong to fight this battle? Is suicide too sensitive a topic? Would you be comforted if your loved one "died by suicide" rather than "committed suicide?" 

So, basically, I want to know if I am really on to something, or if I'm out in left field, arguing nothing more than semantics.

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2 minutes ago, Iggy said:

I beg to differ, suicide IS a crime. It is murder.

I tend to agree, but what do you make of Caruso's argument that suicide almost always is the result of deep deep depression and mental illness, so the person who "dies by suicide" should not be stigmatized (nor the survivors, of course)?

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5 minutes ago, prisonchaplain said:

So, am I wrong to fight this battle? Is suicide too sensitive a topic? Would you be comforted if your loved one "died by suicide" rather than "committed suicide?"

Not at all. "Committed suicide" puts the onus directly on the one doing the act. Death by suicide would muddy the waters for me and leave the possibility open that this thing that happened "to" them could be my fault, could have been prevented by me, if they were someone I knew. That is still possibly true with the other terminology but I think mentally, the phrasing helps one realize, this was their choice in the end. It also lays the responsibility on thosae who are thinking about doing it. It's not something that is unavoidable, they have power to choose whether to do it or not. When someone is on the brink and thinking already that there are no choices left to them, being reminded that such an act is indeed a choice can help them realize they have power to say "yes" or "no" to it, that they can stop it. As someone who has attempted, this is actually a sensitive topic for me and I applaud you for making an article against this ridiculous tide of softening the language, for no point whatsoever. We have to be sensitive to those who wish to take their own life??? Seriously??? Even without religion, that is a cruel and heartless turn of moral relativism. How about everybody deserves the right to life? How about actual compassion and saving people? By "being sensitive" to suicide we are basically agreeing with someone that their life is worthless, that they don't deserve to exist. It's lunacy.

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Guest LiterateParakeet

I don't think it will make any difference to survivors what we call it.  And I distrust those statistics.  How can they know what causes people to commit suicide?  Just because the family/friends didn't know that a person was deeply depressed doesnt' mean they weren't.   Who do those statistics include?  As you know, not all cultures via suicide as we do, so including them in the stats could sway the numbers unfairly.  

Bottom line: I don't care what we call it, but I do think that most people who commit suicide are in deep pain that clouds their judgment.  At least that is has been the case for all the people, myself included, who have been suicidal and lived to talk about the experience.  

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11 minutes ago, prisonchaplain said:

I tend to agree, but what do you make of Caruso's argument that suicide almost always is the result of deep deep depression and mental illness, so the person who "dies by suicide" should not be stigmatized (nor the survivors, of course)?

I'd argue no it's not. It can be a rash decision based on bad circumstances. To say that it is a result of these things is still saying that euthanasia is desirable for "undesirables". Let's just let them take themselves out! Oh? Diagnosed with severe depression? That's a death sentence! Untreatable! Go ahead and do us a favor and get to the end result of that! Absolutely maddening.

Mine wasn't. Mine was a result of repression and anxiety in a very specific set of circumstances forcing me to think I was a problem to be erased. If it is mental illness, then mine was a temporary madness. Are only successful committers mentally ill, I wonder? Convenient set of experiment criteria.

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I've never really gotten the vibe that Mormonism's official approach to suicide is quite as strident as that espoused by some of our Christian cousins (i.e. "murder of the self", "one-way ticket to hell", "unpardonable", and so on--that kind of terminology seems pretty rare).  Yeah, suicide is wrong; but I've always taken it for granted that most people who commit the act are desperately ill; and I anticipate that mostly they will find the embrace of a merciful God.  

So it's hard for me to identify with attempts to de-stigmatize suicide; because it isn't a stigma I directly experience in my "culture".  As an example--I am a bit of a Titanic buff; and it caused a HUGE uproar in Titanic circles when the 1997 film showed first officer Murdoch committing suicide during the sinking (historians are pretty sure one of the ship's officers committed suicide--there are multiple eyewitness accounts--but there are four or five potential candidates).  Murdoch's hometown city council and his surviving family members were outraged at the portrayal and demanded apologies from the director, which (if memory serves) they got.  But to me, the whole thing felt very foreign and rather like a tempest in a teapot--I couldn't understand what people were so worked up about.

More topically:  as a general proposition, I think you tend to see less of a behavior when you stigmatize it; and more of a behavior if you destigmatize it.  But at the same time, there comes a point where additional shaming hurts more than it helps.  To the extent that Caruso is demanding we expunge anything from our vocabulary, or claiming there's nothing theologically wrong with suicide--I would say that's excessive.  I think that those in need of therapeutic assistance are generally better served by professional caregivers who teach them to cope with things as they are, rather than quixotically trying to change the world so that their patients never have to confront their issues.

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26 minutes ago, LiterateParakeet said:

I don't think it will make any difference to survivors what we call it.  And I distrust those statistics.  How can they know what causes people to commit suicide?  Just because the family/friends didn't know that a person was deeply depressed doesnt' mean they weren't.   Who do those statistics include?  As you know, not all cultures via suicide as we do, so including them in the stats could sway the numbers unfairly.  

Bottom line: I don't care what we call it, but I do think that most people who commit suicide are in deep pain that clouds their judgment.  At least that is has been the case for all the people, myself included, who have been suicidal and lived to talk about the experience.  

Isn't being suicidal one of the symptoms for a clinical diagnosis of depression?  If so, Caruso's statistics are probably true--but also more than a little tautological.

Edited by Just_A_Guy
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9 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

Isn't being suicidal one of the symptoms for a clinical doagnosis of depression?  If so, Caruso'a statistics are probably true--but also more than a little tautological.

Yes, good point. :) I was thinking of the low end of the stats, 30%???  That is what I have trouble accepting.   

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1 hour ago, LiterateParakeet said:

I don't think it will make any difference to survivors what we call it.  And I distrust those statistics.  How can they know what causes people to commit suicide?  Just because the family/friends didn't know that a person was deeply depressed doesnt' mean they weren't.   Who do those statistics include?  As you know, not all cultures via suicide as we do, so including them in the stats could sway the numbers unfairly.  

Bottom line: I don't care what we call it, but I do think that most people who commit suicide are in deep pain that clouds their judgment.  At least that is has been the case for all the people, myself included, who have been suicidal and lived to talk about the experience.  

 

Even without knowing who and how, my understanding is that the 30-70% statistic is saying that the completed suicides were by people who had depression/bipolar disorder, not that the disorder caused the suicide. Also, what a range. The point spread is 40, which tells me that your skepticism is well-placed.

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@Just_A_Guy While the "self-murder" quote gives the impression that most Protestants are wholly condemning of the souls of those who commit suicide, you will find that the vast majority of us are most willing to leave the ultimate judgment to God. We wonder if they repented before they died. We allow that their mental illness may have overwhelmed them. We just figure it's God place to make those final calls. I had a loved one commit suicide many years ago. After much seeking of the LORD about the fate of the departed (who had converted less than a week beforehand) the answer I received in my spirit was to simply trust God. No guarantees and no condemnations. Just the LORD saying, "Trust me." That's been my counsel in these cases ever since.

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Such a myriad of things that effect a person who attempts or even follow through with suicide.  Very few I feel are selfish acts or spur of the moment stupidity. I believe the majority of cases involves a real perceived situation where circumstances are completely overwhelming. I myself suffer from night terror from time to time. The first few times it happened I had an overwhelming feeling of complete hoplesness and a feeling of some kind of eternal condemnation of my soul and honestly felt like even the atonement couldnt save me and it was too late and all was futile, all was lost. I would vocally cry out to God, over and over and over, praying and pleading with Heavenly Father for that feeling to depart. Eventually it would but it wasnt until then that I felt what true spiritual and mental despair felt like, perhaps the type of anguish felt by someone condemned to hell. There have been times when I am glad I didnt own a gun and had the gospel and family to cling on for. I do know, in my own experience, that perfectly normal people can have terrifying experiences that could drive them over the edge to committ suicide. 

I have had neighbors, family and friends who have committed suicide and I feel their pain, I know it was real, that life skates a delicate balance between happiness and shear terror and overwhelming hoplessness. 

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Suicide is against the Law in many areas...but it's an irony.  If someone is already dead how do you punish them as they've already done the most severe punishment by law (in some states) or worse to themselves already!  The only instance where the state can punish someone for a suicide these days is from what some call Assisted Suicide.

This movement, has answered the question already posed in the original post of whether people should continue calling it suicide or something else.  The movement calls it Right to Die.  It is where one has the right to choose whether to continue living or to die.  Legally, this used to be prosecuted very similarly to murder, as suicide was considered such as well, and if another person was assisting in it, they considered it even more clearly an act of murder. The person who assisted the other to end their life was normally prosecuted for prison at a minimum.

This has grown murkier in the past few years and Assisted Suicide is now legal in Belgium, Canada, Luxembourg, Netherlands, and Switzerland.  It is legally pursued to enable it by the organization Death with Dignity, and it is this that has in some ways also brought it to be legalized in the US in some states as many view it as the choice to die while still being able to be coherent and have some dignity in life rather than to die while drooling on one's death bed while costing their family a fortune in hospital bills and other concerns.  In the US, this idea of dying with dignity has meant that, though the right to die is not available to most, those who are terminally ill with less then six months to live can choose to die in several states.  These are California, Oregon, Washington, Colorado, and Vermont.  It was contentiously made legal in Montana under a Court Ruling, and though legalized in New Mexico, made illegal under a Supreme Court ruling.

It has also grown murky for some in the Religious and Spiritual circles.  Many feel very similarly to the ideas that promote it politically, and this is reflected in their spiritual lives.  Does one have the Right to Die?

In Japan before Christianity, it was a matter of honor.  If one had done a supremely dishonorable act, it was not inappropriate to kill oneself in the most painful manner that they could imagine.  This is a theme that actually can be found in quite a few Asian societies.  The West did not have this concept spread over it, but have had some ideas from time to time in specific occasions, like a general falling on their sword rather than be captured by an enemy.  Another would be the idea where the Captain goes down with the ship, even if he has the opportunity to save himself.

My view is that of traditional Christianity, it is murder.  The reason is thus.  The Lord has given us our lives.  Murder is not just the deprivation of something the Lord gave them, but also the deprivation of one of the Lord's more precious gift.  We know from the Bible that those who commit murder are in danger of Hell, but I believe we also feel that one can be covered by the sacrifice of our Lord for all men and either sooner, or later, that individual can be forgiven.  That said, what happens to those who commit murder, but have no opportunity to try to repent in this life because they are dead already.

Logically, one could guess that the individual would go straight to hell for murder, and as they are already there, that's where they went.  However, this does not logically fit into the Atonement.  Due to the atonement, the results of such are not spelled out.  Where do those who commit suicide go then?

I do not know, and this is where some Christians (and especially Mormons) find some gray area.  We do not know the great ability of the atoning power of the Lord.  In other religions, some would say, though we know of it, we do not understand just how great the grace of the Lord is. 

A little off topic for a moment.  There is one scripture that stands out to me in regards to who will or will not be saved in the Kingdom of Our Lord.  That scripture tells us not to judge, for that same judgment we give will be in kind visited upon us.  To me, this means, we do not say who will or will not get to heaven.  We cannot claim or say one is going to hell either, in that light.  I think too often we underestimate the great love the Lord has for each and everyone of us, and the degree he went through to try to ensure that we were saved from sin.  At the same time, we do not know the evils of one's heart and even those we consider the most righteous, we have no idea if they will be saved or not.  We men, are flawed in our judgements, and hence, the only one that can truly judge whether we will go to heaven or not is the one who made the sacrifice that allows us to be there.  That is Jesus Christ, the only one that is able to pass that judgement upon us.

With that reflection, we cannot say the result of suicide, or what happens to those who commit suicide (or feel the right to die with dignity, or feel they have the Right to Die).  The LDS church says it is circumstantial, and in many instances, may be based upon the mental and/or emotional state one was in when it occurred.  I personally do not know what happens, that it is purely and ONLY up to the Lord.  His ability to save is unsurpassed, and as I stated before, constantly underestimated by us frail humans.  To those who are the family members left in the wake of another's suicide, the best thing is to probably know that the Lord loves us all, and no matter what our thoughts are on the deceased, his love is probably greater for that individual than we can imagine, and the desire he has for that person to be with him in heaven is probably equally great.  We do not know the judgements of the Lord, nor should we guess in that instance, only to know that he loves each and every one of us, no matter the evils that we all do at some point in our life.

 

Edited by JohnsonJones
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8 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

Suicide is against the Law in many areas...but it's an irony.  If someone is already dead how do you punish them as they've already done the most severe punishment by law (in some states) or worse to themselves already!  The only instance where the state can punish someone for a suicide these days is from what some call Assisted Suicide.

 

This was more true in past generations. My research indicates that no states outlaw suicide today (other than the assisted kind, as you said). FWIW, I'm not even opposed to the current trend to consider suicidal ideation as primarily a mental health concern. My point is that suicide should continue to have a measure of stigma, and that the opposition of religious communities should not be easily dismissed by experts. A therapist I know loves it when his clients tell him they've had thoughts of suicide, but would never do so because their God/religion prohibits it.  S/he will gladly use spiritual/ethical convictions to promote life over death.

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In reality, we humans don't have the tools to judge righteously in such situations.  We do not know the state of someone's heart, brain, soul, at the time they kill themselves.  Only God has those tools to be a righteous judge.  Either someone was in their right mind, and chose to self-murder, breaking the commandment.  Or one was not in control of their own actions, and are an innocent victim of actions they took, but were beyond their control. 

From where I'm standing, neither "Committed suicide" nor "death by suicide" is passing judgment.  Both are accurate descriptions of what happened. 

We don't have the tools to righteously pass judgment on where the dead person's heart/mind/soul was when they killed themselves.  

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7 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

Either someone was in their right mind, and chose to self-murder, breaking the commandment.  Or one was not in control of their own actions, and are an innocent victim of actions they took, but were beyond their control. 

From where I'm standing, neither "Committed suicide" nor "death by suicide" is passing judgment.  Both are accurate descriptions of what happened. 

Let me say up front that I agree with your overall point--we are not equipped to judge departed souls. Doing so borders on blasphemy. Besides, it is so disheartening.

As I read your thoughts, I wondered though. Could it be that in most suicide completions the person is neither completely in control or innocent? Very few people kill themselves when they are in a state of well-being and peace. Yet, I wonder how many are truly incapable of exercising agency, or free will? IMHO, those with suicide ideation are similar to those who face addictions. They are drawn to a solution to their depression/bipolar/hopelessness/etc. Certain events/times of day/people may trigger their desire to end life. They resist and resist and resist the ideation. A few "OD" and the suicide is completed.

So again, no judgment on the departed is called for or warranted. On the other hand, suicide needs to remain sinful in the hearts and minds of God's people. We should defend troubled adults lives with the same vigor many of us do the unborn. If sobriety is an obvious good, living out the life God gives us until He is ready for us to move on, should be as well.

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@MormonGator Thank you for your kind words. There are many authors and experts who are far more worthy than I to write about suicide. Despite my disagreement with Caruso on "committing suicide" and suicide-as-sin, his site is an excellent resource.

On the other hand, you succeeded in reminding me to get back to the book I am writing--believe it or not, a novel (hopefully, a trilogy).  :cool:

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1 hour ago, prisonchaplain said:

Could it be that in most suicide completions the person is neither completely in control or innocent? Very few people kill themselves when they are in a state of well-being and peace. Yet, I wonder how many are truly incapable of exercising agency, or free will? IMHO, those with suicide ideation are similar to those who face addictions. They are drawn to a solution to their depression/bipolar/hopelessness/etc. Certain events/times of day/people may trigger their desire to end life. They resist and resist and resist the ideation. A few "OD" and the suicide is completed.

Good points, and relevant things to think about.  My overall point, is that for those left behind, there is hope, as no human being can righteously tell them their loved one is damned for murder.  Maybe they are, maybe they aren't.  And if there was ever a time to rely on God for the proper blend of justice and mercy, this is it.  

For whatever reason, I've gathered half a dozen or more tales of people having a hand in their own deaths that have personally impacted me.  Not sure why I'm so lucky to have so many firsthand experiences (well, technically secondhand), but here I am.  Briefly:

- A former co-worker, a few years ago.  There was something definitely wrong that everyone could see.  He was just standing there in a quiet room, sweating profusely and battling overwhelming fear and anxiety.  He begged his family to have him locked up so he wouldn't hurt himself, which they were able to do for a while.  But the doctors couldn't keep him forever, and he took his life before anyone could find out what was wrong. 

- Both of my parents just decided they didn't want to be around any more, and declined to treat random medical issues, which became serious things, which killed them.  My mom had a simple bladder infection and declined the cheap, safe, effective antibiotics which would have cured her. My dad had prostate cancer.

- Several youth from my ward over years.  Troubled teens, some in their 20's.  Spread out over years.  One family lost two brothers within months.  Some were surprises, some left notes full of regret and asking forgiveness.  Some had alcohol/drug/crime issues, some had none. 

- Husband of an in-law.  Troubled marriage on it's last legs, he left a very bitter and blaming note, claiming to finally be giving his wife what she'd spent years wanting.

- My own brief experience, two decades ago, feeling suicidal.  All better now, but I find myself able to understand and occasionally empathize with some of these folks.

Some of these seem pretty cut-and-dried.  But my point is no human can speak with righteous certainty about the guilt or innocence of any of them.  God will judge righteous judgment, and we'll find out on the other side of the veil. 

 

Edited by NeuroTypical
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2 hours ago, prisonchaplain said:

This was more true in past generations. My research indicates that no states outlaw suicide today (other than the assisted kind, as you said). FWIW, I'm not even opposed to the current trend to consider suicidal ideation as primarily a mental health concern. My point is that suicide should continue to have a measure of stigma, and that the opposition of religious communities should not be easily dismissed by experts. A therapist I know loves it when his clients tell him they've had thoughts of suicide, but would never do so because their God/religion prohibits it.  S/he will gladly use spiritual/ethical convictions to promote life over death.

if you read my post, you would also see that I consider Suicide murder of self, which is a sin.  We know that murder is a very serious sin in and of itself.  I think using religious convictions is a perfectly correct way to deal with it.  My difference may be that I do not feel we have the ability to tell others where that individual has gone after they have committed suicide, as only the Lord is the one who is able to judge.  In religious matters and suicide, I do not think that the opposition by religions is all that easily dismissed by experts.

I think it depends on the culture that you are living in.  If you are in the blue culture of the US, I think it may be very easy to see experts dismissing such ideas, but if you live in what we could call the red culture, I think one would see very clearly that religious values play a huge role into what experts think.

What I have noticed is that there are several different cultures in the US, with the biggest divide currently being between what one may call Red States and Blue States.  One of the reasons there is such a huge divide in the understanding of different things and the antagonism in politics between these states are because we have two entirely different cultures in the US living side by side.  The perspective of individual at times are reflective of what they see in the culture around them.  A good example is between my wife and her parents.

My wife is huge into pro-hunting.  Guns are a big part of that.  She views all guns should be legal.  Her parents live in California in the San Francisco area and are Republicans and considered very conservative for the area they live in.  To them, guns are things to be avoided, there is no reason that a normal individual should have, much less, carry a gun.

It is simply a difference of culture and how each perceives the world through the lens of the area where they live.

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2 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

Good points, and relevant things to think about.  My overall point, is that for those left behind, there is hope, as no human being can righteously tell them their loved one is damned for murder.  Maybe they are, maybe they aren't.  And if there was ever a time to rely on God for the proper blend of justice and mercy, this is it.  

For whatever reason, I've gathered half a dozen or more tales of people having a hand in their own deaths that have personally impacted me.  Not sure why I'm so lucky to have so many firsthand experiences (well, technically secondhand), but here I am.  Briefly:

- A former co-worker, a few years ago.  There was something definitely wrong that everyone could see.  He was just standing there in a quiet room, sweating profusely and battling overwhelming fear and anxiety.  He begged his family to have him locked up so he wouldn't hurt himself, which they were able to do for a while.  But the doctors couldn't keep him forever, and he took his life before anyone could find out what was wrong. 

- Both of my parents just decided they didn't want to be around any more, and declined to treat random medical issues, which became serious things, which killed them.  My mom had a simple bladder infection and declined the cheap, safe, effective antibiotics which would have cured her. My dad had prostate cancer.

- Several youth from my ward over years.  Troubled teens, some in their 20's.  Spread out over years.  One family lost two brothers within months.  Some were surprises, some left notes full of regret and asking forgiveness.  Some had alcohol/drug/crime issues, some had none. 

- Husband of an in-law.  Troubled marriage on it's last legs, he left a very bitter and blaming note, claiming to finally be giving his wife what she'd spent years wanting.

- My own brief experience, two decades ago, feeling suicidal.  All better now, but I find myself able to understand and occasionally empathize with some of these folks.

Some of these seem pretty cut-and-dried.  But my point is no human can speak with righteous certainty about the guilt or innocence of any of them.  God will judge righteous judgment, and we'll find out on the other side of the veil. 

 

Too add, murder and suicide are two vastly different things and anyone who would equate the two have no idea of the different emotional states of the two. Murder sides more towards sinfulness and wickedness where suicide is sided more towards great emotional duress and hoplessness. I have family members who are at both sides- one involved in drug abuse, theft and involved in a murder and yet another trying hard to do whats right, under great emotional duress not in control of his situation, had a troubled and abusive childhood and killed himself. God will judge each differently and hopefully both will go on to receive exaltation.

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I think commit is a very accurate term- as one has has succsessfully changed their situation through premeditation followed by action. Once one commits suicide succsessfully there is no turning back-it is a permanent and drastic change. I do not think their term should b expunged any more than commiting to any other goal by action and intent.

This seems to be more about political correctness.

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