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We live among monsters.

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1 hour ago, Vort said:

Then we are talking about different phenomena.

Yeah, I don't quite understand what you guys are talking about when you say gut instinct.  My understanding of gut instinct is - my dad deciding for me.  Basically, it's the decision I make that comes from my upbringing which may be different from my independent decision.  Usually, I follow my dad's voice in my head (or gut) when a decision needs to be made quick.  Otherwise, if the voice is not the same as my brain, I ask God what's better and chew on it until I get a decision that doesn't rankle my brain.

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If we dwell on what we can't do, we'll get overwhelmed.  God's plan was not to save the world through sweeping reform and government agencies.  Even Jesus didn't go out to conquer the world.  No, God's plan is to work from the smallest unit of union, the family and work our way up.  The girls who are trapped, become victims largely because they are trying to escape bad homes.  We need to strengthen our homes, and our communities, and help other families do the same.  We need to remove the victim before they become a victim. And that starts in the home.  A predator will not prey on the strong.

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On 3/21/2017 at 5:41 PM, Eowyn said:

How am I supposed to safely raise children in a world like this?

Raise them with a mindset to not be victims.  Enroll them in effective, self-defense-oriented martial arts.  At the very least, they can ensure they're not taken easily.

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Yes, we DO live amongst MONSTERS, one of the "brothers" (Will not mention names) (This term is presently being used while I spit on the floor) of my former ward is going through his jury trial for having more than 40+ counts of child molestation (Not elaborating), victims were children of the ward that his family acted as sitters for many in the ward so parents could do things like go out, or go to the temple. Fortunately, we never had any of our kids over there. He couldn't just be decent enough to plea GUILTY and take his lumps, no, he will drag everyone of his victims into court, along with their families and make them re-live it all over again.... This MONSTER wants to go to trial so his defense attorney can try (miserably) to impeach the credibility of the testimony of each of his victims. 

That MONSTER not only destroyed the lives of those children, but he destroyed the lives of his wife and their kids, for how to THEY recover from THIS kind of thing. His family are wonderful people, his wife, truly a kindly loving woman. I am terrified to discover the rest of the secrets that will come out when I sit in the court room to offer support to his victims during the MONSTER's trial. 

Talk about Monsters in our midst..... THAT guy is a real GEM. 

 

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1 hour ago, Armin said:

THAT guy is a real GEM."  ... A "GEM"...? Hope that doesn't mean German.

 

Quote

gem [jem] noun

1. a cut and polished precious stone or pearl fine enough for use in jewelry.

2. something likened to or prized as such a stone because of its beauty or worth:
His painting was the gem of the collection.

3. a person held in great esteem or affection.

And just in case it wasn't obvious, @Bad Karma was being sarcastic there.

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Don't invest your children with your fears. Build their confidence and teach them how to protect themselves. One of the best things you can do for your children is get them martial arts training, especially your daughters.  It's more than just the ability to fight back.  It instills confidence, common sense, and teaches them to be calm when danger appears.  Don't let them become victims. They will be a strength for others.

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One of my daughters started Tang Soo Do, but she hated it because her class was huge (city rec center) and the sensei yelled all the time. I'd really like them to learn something, though. 

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8 minutes ago, Eowyn said:

One of my daughters started Tang Soo Do, but she hated it because her class was huge (city rec center) and the sensei yelled all the time. I'd really like them to learn something, though. 

If I wanted my children to learn honest self-defense, I would put them in one of the following (more or less in this order):

  1. Boxing
  2. MMA
  3. Brazilian jiu-jitsu
  4. Judo, if it's a good school and not too hidebound as far as Japanese rules go

Probably not anything else. Wrestling would be useful in conjunction with any of the above. But I would not put them in any kind of karate or kung fu or tae kwan do or aikido or whatever. If they're going to learn how to fight, I want them to learn how to fight, not dance.

When they get to adult age, they can carry a firearm, if they feel threatened. A four-year-old with a handgun (and the knowledge to use it) is far more dangerous than an eight-hundred-pound gorilla.

That might seem like overkill (no pun intended). But I think that's the point: Are you willing to shoot another man (or woman) to death if s/he threatens you? If not, don't carry a gun. If you are not willing to bite off someone's finger or gouge out their eyes, then don't get into a fight, ever. Strictly avoid all places where such things are likely to happen.

I see nothing morally wrong whatsoever in saying that you don't want to kill or disfigure someone else, so you're not going to learn how. Good for you. But then, don't complain when you put yourself in a dangerous position and someone beats the stuffing out of you. Similarly, I see nothing morally wrong with deciding that you are going to learn to defend yourself and those around you by whatever means are necessary, including disfigurement and even killing. Good for you. But then, don't complain when you have to deal with the lifelong psychological problems surrounding having shot or beaten someone to death because he was threatening you.

Or to be more precise: You're welcome to complain, and you may even be justified, but realize that you chose your consequences.

If I were to enroll my children in such a class for self-defense purposes, I would tell them my thinking behind it. If, like your daughter, they hated it, I personally would probably not insist that they keep going. But for myself, if I were concerned that my children were able to defend themselves from attackers, I would stick with pistol-do or one of the arts listed above. The basic rule of thumb is: If your "martial art" is so "deadly" that you dare not practice it in real time at more or less full speed (a practice known as "sparring"), then it's useless. Don't waste your time or money. The term "McDojo" exists for a reason.

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My favorite is Krav Maga.  Very, very practical.  Not interested in style or bowing to sensei or belts or building self-esteem, or anything like that.

The kid's class here in Colorado Springs practices fighting off large adult attackers, sometimes multiple assailants, how to create just enough distance to run away, etc.

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4 minutes ago, Armin said:

Fast draw...? Why not, you have two hands. The left for the Beretta, the right for the Colt.

1-0 (You got the Italian right, not the American - it's not a brand that's well known (Kahr).  I'm thinking of getting rid of both and getting a different one, the brand of which I actually can't remember at the moment.  Maybe Springfield.  Clearly, I'm not thinking hard about it. :)  OK, I thought hard about it - Browning.)

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Just now, Armin said:

You live in paradise.

Not really, but there is one thing about this location that is unique (to my knowledge) and fabulous: there are no fleas (as in, dogs and cats who live here don't get fleas).  The climate is exactly wrong for fleas.  If you're a pet owner, that is heaven (by comparison to being in a place where the climate is not exactly wrong for fleas).

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10 hours ago, Vort said:

The basic rule of thumb is: If your "martial art" is so "deadly" that you dare not practice it in real time at more or less full speed (a practice known as "sparring"), then it's useless. Don't waste your time or money. The term "McDojo" exists for a reason.

At the same time, you don't want a school that's too competition focused.  Most competitive forms have rules that will cause you problems in a real fight, like not protecting your head because they're not supposed to hit you there, etc.

The best advice I've seen was to find a place that will teach you all the stuff that's against the competition rules.  They ban it because it's too good at hurting people.

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If I may plagiarize a quote from Grandmaster Ip Man -

You want your martial arts to be more than just a system of fighting.  It needs to be a system of thought.  You must learn to outthink your opponent, whatever form he takes.  We all have inner demons to fight. We call these demons 'fear', and 'hatred', and 'anger'. If you don't conquer them, then a life of a hundred years is a tragedy.  Martial arts is not a specific fighting style - Karate, Krav Maga, Aikido, Jiu-jitsu, etc.  Martial arts is... YOU... it is what you need to support your own system of thought and triumph.

 

So, how I apply this to my kids - they're in Brazilian jiu-jitsu as it teaches the things they need for their own specific physical attributes to support their system of thought.  That system of thought is developed at home.

Edited by anatess2

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4 hours ago, NightSG said:

At the same time, you don't want a school that's too competition focused.  Most competitive forms have rules that will cause you problems in a real fight, like not protecting your head because they're not supposed to hit you there, etc.

The best advice I've seen was to find a place that will teach you all the stuff that's against the competition rules.  They ban it because it's too good at hurting people.

I don't know what styles you're studying.  But that doesn't really make sense.  When we're practicing, we're always aware that "even though it is against the rules" stuff happens.  You always want to be aware of your head.  We're constantly going over what could happen to our heads when doing a particular technique or form.

Several of our techniques include moves that will kill a person if you do them full force.  My 11 y.o. happened to learn some of these forms.  It is actually not meant to be taught to younger students simply because they are on the head.  And they can't practice them on the black belts because the children are not tall enough to reach.  But my son happened to be in the class at the right time and was taught anyway.  So, he could kill someone his own size rather easily.  That's a disturbing thought.

As adults, we are taught to hold back.  But the fellow student I usually partner up with is pretty large.  And sometimes, I was afraid I wasn't going to make it out of practice.  Interesting.

Edited by Guest

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4 hours ago, NightSG said:

The best advice I've seen was to find a place that will teach you all the stuff that's against the competition rules.  They ban it because it's too good at hurting people.

 

34 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

I don't know what styles you're studying.  But that doesn't really make sense.  When we're practicing, we're always aware that "even though it is against the rules" stuff happens.

It doesn't make sense because NightSG is mixing Sports with Martial Arts.  If your Dojo is only teaching you for competition then you're not in a Martial Arts School.  You're in a Sports School.  If your objective is Martial Arts, then the best advice is not to "find a place that will teach you all the stuff that's against the competition rules"... the best advice is to find a LEGIT Martial Arts School.

 

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1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

I don't know what styles you're studying.  But that doesn't really make sense.  When we're practicing, we're always aware that "even though it is against the rules" stuff happens.  You always want to be aware of your head.  We're constantly going over what could happen to our heads when doing a particular technique or form.

Several of our techniques include moves that will kill a person if you do them full force.  My 11 y.o. happened to learn some of these forms.  It is actually not meant to be taught to younger students simply because they are on the head.  And they can't practice them on the black belts because the children are not tall enough to reach.  But my son happened to be in the class at the right time and was taught anyway.  So, he could kill someone his own size rather easily.  That's a disturbing thought.

 

 As someone who has studied martial arts since childhood I've come to the conclusion that it's all rubbish. In reality, the untrained guy down the road has just as much chance to successfully defend himself as the pseudo-karate master tough guy you meet in every dojo. The WORST thing that martial arts training does is that it gives people over confidence so they wind up getting seriously hurt. Some instructors also give self defense advice like they are lawyers-which many aren't. Self defense law is actually sort of complicated and technical and no, even if you were "struck first" you don't have the legal right (and certainly not the moral right) to just start killing people. Also, you don't need to be a "black belt" to probably seriously injure or kill someone with a technique. Basically, from purple-on you have "lethal" techniques but let's be honest-a poorly timed haymaker might catch someone the wrong way and bam! You are looking at mansluaghter charges. 

 

Edited by MormonGator

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11 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

 As someone who has studied martial arts since childhood I've come to the conclusion that it's all rubbish. In reality, the untrained guy down the road has just as much chance to successfully defend himself as the pseudo-karate master tough guy you meet in every dojo. 

I wouldn't call it "ALL rubbish".  But the idea that martial arts are going to give you some magical ability to fight is rubbish.  

Boxing is a martial art.  Sidearms and rifle sharpshooting is a martial art.  Throwing darts is a martial art.

True "martial arts" (@anatess2 makes a good point) use techniques that take advantage of physiology and physics.  For instance, if you flex your muscles in the classic incredible hulk pose, you'll find it is easier to push inward with your arms than outward.  This simple and very visible understanding of physiology allows a weaker person to push a larger person's arm towards the center.  Some physics is used when recognizing the ease with which a hook can be blocked vs a jab even though it seems to directly contradict the statement above.  

While we recognize there are limits to how effective this extra knowledge is, it's these simple things that people who are normally not very physical simply don't grasp until they have training and start doing.

It seems that punching is a fairly simple and intuitive act.  But it really isn't for a lot of people.  Many people have to be taught.  Many more need to be trained to do it right.  And everybody needs to practice and exercise to gain the strength, speed, and flexibility to do it effectively in a real confrontational situation.

The other thing to understand is that most real street fights are not about hands and arms or fingers or pressure points.  It is about mass and speed.  If you get a large guy who is fast, it doesn't matter what technique he uses or what you use to defend yourself.  If he charges you, you're down.  The only defense is sufficient speed to get out of his way.  Once you're down, you get pummeled until you can't get up.

This is where Aikido can come in handy.  It teaches you to look for paths of 'energy'.  In reality it is kinetic energy and vectors that you're able to key in on.  With that, you essentially do a gunkata on bodies rather than bullets.  This helps you to dodge more effectively.  Experienced fighters describe fighting an Aikido master as being similar to "fighting air".  You think he's there.  But when your punch lands, it only hits air.

Yes, gator, I get the flavor of what you're saying.  And I think there is some wisdom in that idea.  But training of any sort (even if it's simple boxing techniques) will help anyone who otherwise wouldn't know how to fight.

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2 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

I wouldn't call it "ALL rubbish".  But the idea that martial arts are going to give you some magical ability to fight is rubbish.  

Boxing is a martial art.  Sidearms and rifle sharpshooting is a martial art.  Throwing darts is a martial art.

True "martial arts" (@anatess2 makes a good point) use techniques that take advantage of physiology and physics.  For instance, if you flex your muscles in the classic incredible hulk pose, you'll find it is easier to push inward with your arms than outward.  This simple and very visible understanding of physiology allows a weaker person to push a larger person's arm towards the center.  Some physics is used when recognizing the ease with which a hook can be blocked vs a jab even though it seems to directly contradict the statement above.  

While we recognize there are limits to how effective this extra knowledge is, it's these simple things that people who are normally not very physical simply don't grasp until they have training and start doing.

It seems that punching is a fairly simple and intuitive act.  But it really isn't for a lot of people.  Many people have to be taught.  Many more need to be trained to do it right.  And everybody needs to practice and exercise to gain the strength, speed, and flexibility to do it effectively in a real confrontational situation.

The other thing to understand is that most real street fights are not about hands and arms or fingers or pressure points.  It is about mass and speed.  If you get a large guy who is fast, it doesn't matter what technique he uses or what you use to defend yourself.  If he charges you, you're down.  The only defense is sufficient speed to get out of his way.  Once you're down, you get pummeled until you can't get up.

This is where Aikido can come in handy.  It teaches you to look for paths of 'energy'.  In reality it is kinetic energy and vectors that you're able to key in on.  With that, you essentially do a gunkata on bodies rather than bullets.  This helps you to dodge more effectively.  Experienced fighters describe fighting an Aikido master as being similar to "fighting air".  You think he's there.  But when your punch lands, it only hits air.

Yes, gator, I get the flavor of what you're saying.  And I think there is some wisdom in that idea.  But training of any sort (even if it's simple boxing techniques) will help anyone who otherwise wouldn't know how to fight.

Oh, I totally understand what you are saying too my friend. I apologize to you @Carborendum if it came out too harsh. You make some good points as well, for sure. A basic course in boxing or self defense is a good idea for everyone. 
 

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1 hour ago, Armin said:

And mikado and bowling...? Come on, remember what "martial" actually means: warring or belligerent. It comes from Latin (Mars was the Romans' god of warfare).

I don't need a lesson in etymology.  If I threw a dart at your eye, you'd think I was giving you a love poke?  Is that your point?

Think about it.  Warfare from the dawn of time consists of getting something from here over to there.  When it gets there, it hopefully does some damage to the opposing party.

Fists, feet, elbows, clubs, flails, slings/stones, bows/arrows, crossbows/bolts, catapults, mangonels, ballistas, trebuchets, cannons, firearms, missiles (of all stripes) chemical & biological weapons, and yes, darts.  They're all means of getting something under your control to go over to the enemy and do some damage.  That's all.  Nothing else.  So far, none of our technology has ever come up with changing warfare beyond this basic concept.  The Art of War only talks about different ways to implement such tools.  But nothing has changed beyond this basic limitation in ten thousand years.

All of these weapons that I mentioned qualify as being useful in warfare.  An art is then the combining of many techniques in the use of one or more of these weapons.

If you know how to punch better than someone else, guess what?  You're learning a martial skill.  If you're getting trained to kick more effectively than someone else, you're learning a martial skill.  In football, if a large guy learns to tackle another large guy to incapacitate him, that's a martial skill used in a sport.  If you're an Olympic javelin thrower, guess what?  You're using a weapon.  If you want to include bowling in the mix, I guess you could.  But you'd have to make a case that such skill would be able to do damage to the enemy.  Not sure if that would qualify.

That said, not all martial arts are equal.  Some are more deadly. Some do more damage.  Some are more versatile.  Some are more varied in their techniques.  Some rely more on strength than others.  Etc.

Many know Tae Kwon Do as the Korean Martial Art.  Actually, no.  The Korean government classifies it as a sport.  While it was taught in schools for many years, it was taught as a sport like wrestling is in our high schools.  Yet many a student got into fights and used these techniques for better fighting.

The National Martial Art of Korea is Kuk Sool Won.  In fact, that is what the term kuk sool won means.  National (Korean) martial art.  Why?  What is the difference?  They evaluated whether or not the art could actually be used to benefit the military in close quarters combat.  They determined through study and through demonstration that it was very effective.  Today, KSW is used to train the Korean military.  Why?  Because it works.  It not only teaches the use of the body.  It also teaches the use of various weapons, including firearms.  It was leaps and bounds above the techniques taught in tae kwon do.  In fact, the techniques in TKD were considered so simple, that they are basically afterthoughts in KSW.  They're used for warmups and conditioning.  The additional techniques are more precise.  Some are quite deadly.  We practice them on people to gage height, size of head, and get used to grabbing a real head.  But to actually follow through with real forms we have to practice in air.  The black belts practice on dummies.  It is said that the grand master's father had to use one such technique in self-defense against a Japanese soldier during the occupation of WWII.  

So, yes, it works.

Edited by Guest

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13 hours ago, Armin said:

No, surely not. I wouldn't think it was a love poke. But you should admit it's very mean if you threw a dart at someone, although I must admit it's a good idea. You could make clear that the person was somehow standing between you and the dartboard, and it was no intention, just an accident. One important advice: use only one dart, because several darts meeting his head would probably lead to some questions by the Sheriff or the FBI investigator.

Do we have a language barrier here?  I thought you were not actually German, or are you?

While I appreciate your attempt at humor, I'm still wondering: What was your point?  Here's the sequence of events that I'm having trouble reconciling:

  1. I pointed out that such and so activities could be considered martial arts.
  2. You mocked that idea.
  3. I further expanded why I considered my claim to be valid.
  4. You're pointing out that my only error was my sarcastic rhetorical question was incorrect with additional sarcasm and... humor(?).  And while doing so, you actually confirmed my point.

You haven't actually made a point.  Do you actually care to?  Or are you just going to make nonsensical comments? If so, I'm perfectly ok with that as long as I realize that is what you're doing.

Edited by Guest

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On 3/21/2017 at 8:44 PM, Backroads said:

"Don't talk to strangers" is obsolete advice that never should have been given in the first place, according to safety experts.

Sorry Backroads, we tend to agree on many subjects, this statement I wholeheartedly disagree with, and the safety experts (IMHO) are not much of experts. In my wife's neighborhood growing up a child was nearly grabbed by a pedophile. The concept of "Don't talk to strangers" is what spared her from an awful situation. She was approached by a man in a car and when he tried to talk to her she remembered words she was taught, "Don't talk to strangers," which upon ignoring the "strangers" ploy of interaction he then tried to grab her. It was the distance from the car, and her willingness to fight that spared her from an awful situation. If she would have been closer to the car by not avoiding a stranger, she would have been close enough for him to grab and easily get her in the car. Stranger danger is a concept that should be continued taught. As should other conversation be taught also. Paranoia toward strangers, no, this is the idea that should be avoided. We should continue to teach, as children (the majority of them) aren't going to be able to always distinguish between good and bad strangers, but they definitely can distinguish stranger from someone they know.

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1 hour ago, Anddenex said:

Paranoia toward strangers, no, this is the idea that should be avoided. 

While agree with your overall point, I don't see how this ^^^ can be avoided.  Children don't have the capacity to make the judgment call or the experience enough to know what "paranoia" is vs "caution".  And as we form habits while young, when we are old, we will not depart from it.

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4 minutes ago, Armin said:

I am German. Maybe it's a language barrier from time to time, and I always wish I could speak English the way I speak German.

Your English is fantastic. I admire anyone who can speak a second language-it's so hard! 

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