A new data point on Utah birthrates


Just_A_Guy

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1 minute ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Whether that is true or not (and it probably is), my point is that if a whole community of people had the attitude that they refused to accept anything that they didn't earn with their own two hands (which strikes me as more prideful than ethical, incidentally) then the United Order certainly couldn't work either. ;)

Ok.  I am now hearing something different than what I had previously interpreted from your post.

So, you're saying that people such as Moody who refuse the help when offered also prevent the United Order from functioning properly?  Please expound.

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38 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Ok.  I am now hearing something different than what I had previously interpreted from your post.

So, you're saying that people such as Moody who refuse the help when offered also prevent the United Order from functioning properly?  Please expound.

Not that they "did". But that they "would".

The point I'm trying to make is that refusing help is likely prideful at some level. Are we not all beggars? Are we not all dependent on another for all we have? What's the difference between accepting help from God Himself and accepting help from those who are acting in His name and on His behalf?

Taking an attitude that "I'm better than this" and thereby refusing help from God's servants is the same as saying "I'm better than this" and refusing help from God.

Is that wise?

I'm not talking about government aid here, of course. That's a different issue. I'm discussing how you felt getting help from the Bishop's storehouse though.

The idea that "there's something wrong with this" when we receive help is, in my opinion, invalid. And comparing our need to others is irrelevant too. There will always be someone who needs more help than someone else. So where is that line drawn. According to the scriptures, it isn't. We are ALL beggars.

We should all be self-sufficient. Yes. But we should also all be willing to humbly accept help when it is given in our time(s) of need.

Obviously there is a great deal of wise judgment to be made in the matter. When do we "need" and when can we do fine without, etc.? That's a personal call. And I don't even think that you were wrong in the choice(s) you made. Where I think it becomes problematic is when there is an implication (or an inference) that the principle is universal and we should all have an attitude of never relying on others.

Edited by The Folk Prophet
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2 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Obviously there is a great deal of wise judgment to be made in the matter. When do we "need" and when can we do fine without, etc.? That's a personal call. And I don't even think that you were wrong in the choice(s) you made. Where I think it becomes problematic is when there is an implication (or an inference) that the principle is universal and we should all have an attitude of never relying on others.

So, once again it is a question of balance.  I seem to be saying that a lot lately -- both on and off the forum.

I'll have to consider this for a while to determine if it enough to drive a paradigm shift.

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3 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Well, you did say, "...we are selfish, and we are prideful", followed by a whole paragraph with capitalized WE. So...yes, it does sound like you're talking about someone other than just you.

See...here's more of it. We are evil. We aren't charitable. We aren't doing what we should.

Maybe I would interpret it as you speaking about yourself if you'd replace all those instances of "we" with "I".

I did say we.  You can feel that speaks to you.  Once again, why do you feel that way?  What causes you to take offense at it?  Is it due to humility?

I DID include Matthew 25 which IS for us all in my last post.  If one has problems with what the Lord says, perhaps one should reflect on why they feel that way.

ARE we following what the Lord states there?

If I were to talk about the actual truth, it would probably be that 99% of Americans do NOT follow what the Lord states, and yes, that is probably due to pride and selfishness.

However, I realize that when I am looking at this perspective, it isn't really seeing what others are doing, but realizing what I have done and what I am like.  It is how one feels others are like them and do as they do.  I realize that it is I putting my perspectives out there in reflection of what I do and have done.

Now many would say they feel this way, and it IS scripture from Mosiah 2 in the Book of Mormon

Quote

14 And even I, myself, have labored with mine own hands that I might serve you, and that ye should not be laden with taxes, and that there should nothing come upon you which was grievous to be borne—and of all these things which I have spoken, ye yourselves are witnesses this day.

15 Yet, my brethren, I have not done these things that I might boast, neither do I tell these things that thereby I might accuse you; but I tell you these things that ye may know that I can answer a clear conscience before God this day.

16 Behold, I say unto you that because I said unto you that I had spent my days in your service, I do not desire to boast, for I have only been in the service of God.

17 And behold, I tell you these things that ye may learn wisdom; that ye may learn that when ye are in the service of your fellow beings ye are only in the service of your God.

This is true, and I'm not contesting this at all.  However, I think too often we may focus on one part, but not on some other parts.

But it is this scripture that he states a little later that always reminds me and makes me worried about the actions I've taken in life, especially on the corner of the Temple at Temple Square where I'm almost always finding people asking for money and aid.  How often do we look at one part, and then forget about the next.  It is in Mosiah 4.

Quote

14 And ye will not suffer your children that they go hungry, or naked; neither will ye suffer that they transgress the laws of God, and fight and quarrel one with another, and serve the devil, who is the master of sin, or who is the evil spirit which hath been spoken of by our fathers, he being an enemy to all righteousness.

15 But ye will teach them to walk in the ways of truth and soberness; ye will teach them to love one another, and to serve one another.

16 And also, ye yourselves will succor those that stand in need of your succor; ye will administer of your substance unto him that standeth in need; and ye will not suffer that the beggar putteth up his petition to you in vain, and turn him out to perish.

17 Perhaps thou shalt say: The man has brought upon himself his misery; therefore I will stay my hand, and will not give unto him of my food, nor impart unto him of my substance that he may not suffer, for his punishments are just—

18 But I say unto you, O man, whosoever doeth this the same hath great cause to repent; and except he repenteth of that which he hath done he perisheth forever, and hath no interest in the kingdom of God.

19 For behold, are we not all beggars? Do we not all depend upon the same Being, even God, for all the substance which we have, for both food and raiment, and for gold, and for silver, and for all the riches which we have of every kind?

20 And behold, even at this time, ye have been calling on his name, and begging for a remission of your sins. And has he suffered that ye have begged in vain? Nay; he has poured out his Spirit upon you, and has caused that your hearts should be filled with joy, and has caused that your mouths should be stopped that ye could not find utterance, so exceedingly great was your joy.

21 And now, if God, who has created you, on whom you are dependent for your lives and for all that ye have and are, doth grant unto you whatsoever ye ask that is right, in faith, believing that ye shall receive, O then, how ye ought to impart of the substance that ye have one to another.

22 And if ye judge the man who putteth up his petition to you for your substance that he perish not, and condemn him, how much more just will be your condemnation for withholding your substance, which doth not belong to you but to God, to whom also your life belongeth; and yet ye put up no petition, nor repent of the thing which thou hast done.

23 I say unto you, wo be unto that man, for his substance shall perish with him; and now, I say these things unto those who are rich as pertaining to the things of this world.

24 And again, I say unto the poor, ye who have not and yet have sufficient, that ye remain from day to day; I mean all you who deny the beggar, because ye have not; I would that ye say in your hearts that: I give not because I have not, but if I had I would give.

25 And now, if ye say this in your hearts ye remain guiltless, otherwise ye are condemned; and your condemnation is just for ye covet that which ye have not received.

As you can see, I don't ever see in the scriptures it saying...condemn those that are poor and do not share your money or wealth, but the exact opposite...and that worries me.  To me it is continually harping on us that we recognize the poor and needy.  Maybe it's just highlighting my own weaknesses and they were only written for me.  From what I've seen outside the US in some other nations, I have a feeling that what I'm talking about in regards to me is actually quite common in regards to our selfishness and pride.

We (yes, I used we, because it is I, and I note it is among my fellow Americans) want to follow the prosperity gospel as taught by those like Joel Olsteen and others rather than what we find in the Scriptures which continually adheres us to look after our fellow men (and women of course).

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1 minute ago, JohnsonJones said:

We (yes, I used we, because it is I, and I note it is among my fellow Americans) want to follow the prosperity gospel as taught by those like Joel Olsteen and others rather than what we find in the Scriptures which continually adheres us to look after our fellow men (and women of course).

That is an observation which I do not share.  I continue to see MANY people of moderate to great means willing to give their time, talents, and means to the poor and the needy.  But people such as yourself take the condemnation of a government program to automatically mean that these same very generous people are refusing to give to the poor.  That simply isn't true.

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Just now, JohnsonJones said:

 What causes you to take offense at it?

Huh? I've taken offense? Well.....that's news to me.

I think you may be reading more into things than are really there. What I'm doing is discussing the validity of a proposal that those who are against government aid must be unloving.

2 minutes ago, JohnsonJones said:

Is it due to humility?

Let's just presume for a moment that I was, actually, offended and it was because of pride. What would that have to do with whether government aid is a good idea or not?

It wouldn't. Character debates don't address the issues. When they're straw-men character debates they address the issue even less.

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1 minute ago, Carborendum said:

That is an observation which I do not share.  I continue to see MANY people of moderate to great means willing to give their time, talents, and means to the poor and the needy.  But people such as yourself take the condemnation of a government program to automatically mean that these same very generous people are refusing to give to the poor.  That simply isn't true.

No, I'm not taking condemnation as that, but I DO know WHY it was put into place.  We have had people starve in the US.  We have had some very terrible things happen in the US, and it was particularly bad in the Depression era. 

During that time period people were FAR more generous then we were.  It was not uncommon for people to knock on others doors and be given meals (they'd stand a chance of getting shot these days, or the police being called to cart them off, ironic that it is more likely they get a meal in jail than from their fellow men).  However, even at that time they had some terrible tragedies going on.  Social Security, Welfare, and other social nets were created because our charity WAS NOT working in these instances. 

It is even worse today.  However, if one feels they are following Matthew 25 and Mosiah 4 and can stand before the Lord with a clear conscience, more power to them.  Normally I hear (and I have heard in this thread) the exact opposite of what King Benjamin is telling us I Mosiah 4, and especially people reasoning why the poor deserve what they get rather than why we should share with them.

I know for me it can be particularly hard at times when we walk down Main in Salt Lake City.  You wonder if these people have a nice car right around the corner where they go to after that, OR if they are really in need.  However, in Mosiah 4, which pricks my conscience uncomfortably, I realize that is NOT my place to ask these questions, and it makes me feel even more guilty.

However, I DO know in regards to the fast offerings situation in the church, if we even are just talking about Mormons, we are not even 1/10 as generous as people are implying in this thread.  If it we were hit by another great depression and there was no government aid, the church could not help all the poor out there and help them survive.  We would literally have Mormons in the streets and starving.  Thus, even as I feel guilt, I know it is a WE situation because it is not just I who has a lack of charity.  I know for me, it is due to pride and selfishness, and considering what the Scriptures say, and the situation the church is finding itself in, I'd say I'm not alone in that. 

Maybe I'm wrong, but it doesn't change that there is not enough offerings given out there to help support the poor in the church each month, much less help the poor in general if there was no government aid.  I don't know how many times we've tried to help those who ask for help in the ward, and we do as we can with the Bishops Warehouse, DI, and otherwise, and yet fall extremely short and have to refer people to government aid and at times even help them fill out the forms.

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11 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Huh? I've taken offense? Well.....that's news to me.

I think you may be reading more into things than are really there. What I'm doing is discussing the validity of a proposal that those who are against government aid must be unloving.

Let's just presume for a moment that I was, actually, offended and it was because of pride. What would that have to do with whether government aid is a good idea or not?

It wouldn't. Character debates don't address the issues. When they're straw-men character debates they address the issue even less.

Even the church uses the government aid programs because we don't have enough from Offerings.  Without government aid, the church would be in bad shape with it's poor.  There's not enough money in the "coffers" from charity to actually DO everything to help them with their needs (much less anything else).  I and another end up paying hundreds of dollars on the spot and out of pocket each month to try to fill this need and it still isn't enough. 

I have quoted scriptures above, and I KNOW we don't fulfill our duties as a church (collectively speaking) in that regards, and that DOES include me.  I also see a LOT of the luxuries I and others have, and KNOW that we are choosing these things over other areas.

If you have a PROBLEM with these things, then ask yourself why you are offended by Matthew 25 and Mosiah 4, or if you are not, what do you feel the LDS church should do these days.  There is NOT enough money to help the poor and without government aid, many would be in very bad situations.

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Guest MormonGator
7 minutes ago, JohnsonJones said:

 

However, I DO know in regards to the fast offerings situation in the church, if we even are just talking about Mormons, we are not even 1/10 as generous as people are implying in this thread.

No way. 

Active LDS are easily, no question the most generous and giving people in the world. These people bust their backbone to give their time and money to the church then feel guilty that they don't give more. No one earth is more generous that your average, every day active LDS. 

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Just now, MormonGator said:

No way. 

Active LDS are easily, no question the most generous and giving people in the world. These people bust their backbone to give their time and money to the church then feel guilty that they don't give more. No one earth is more generous that your average, every day active LDS. 

Obviously. 

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12 minutes ago, JohnsonJones said:

Maybe I'm wrong, but it doesn't change that there is not enough offerings given out there to help support the poor in the church each month, much less help the poor in general if there was no government aid.  I don't know how many times we've tried to help those who ask for help in the ward, and we do as we can with the Bishops Warehouse, DI, and otherwise, and yet fall extremely short and have to refer people to government aid and at times even help them fill out the forms.

So if the bottom line is not enough people are following God's command to help the poor and needy.. How is Government Laws (which is backed the threat of violence) to forcibly remove wealth through taxes (aka steal) the correct answer to that problem?  It seems to me that you only make the problem worse and compound one failure to live God's law with another yet another failure

 

 

Edited by estradling75
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1 minute ago, JohnsonJones said:

If you have a PROBLEM with these things, then ask yourself why you are offended by Matthew 25 and Mosiah 4, or if you are not, what do you feel the LDS church should do these days.  There is NOT enough money to help the poor and without government aid, many would be in very bad situations.

See...there you go again...caricaturing me and others into heartless monsters by insinuating things that are simple false. I don't know how you come to the conclusions that you do about me. It seems like it's because it's convenient to your argument to make those who disagree with you out to be "bad" people who are offended by the scriptures. Of course that is false.

As long as you are insistent on seeing anyone who disagrees with you as evil you won't be able to actually consider the issues. You've shut yourself down to any sense of actual reason because you are emotionally invested in the "evil" of everyone's viewpoint who disagrees with you.

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58 minutes ago, JohnsonJones said:

 If it we were hit by another great depression and there was no government aid, the church could not help all the poor out there and help them survive.  We would literally have Mormons in the streets and starving.  

That's why there's an emphasis on making food storage a priority.

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1 hour ago, JohnsonJones said:

Maybe I'm wrong, but it doesn't change that there is not enough offerings given out there to help support the poor in the church each month, much less help the poor in general if there was no government aid.

Maybe the poor need help with budgeting/financial planning and knowing the difference between needs and wants.  I could give *many* examples of those receiving help doing things that my husband and I don't even do.  More money isn't always the answer.

Edited by my two cents
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1 minute ago, my two cents said:

Maybe the poor need help with budgeting/financial planning and knowing the difference between needs and wants.  I could give *many* examples of those receiving help doing things that my husband and I don't even do.

And I can give you *many* examples where this is not true. People who are getting financial aid and still scrapping by and barely makinging, children going hungry. There is not doubt that there are those who abuse the systems. Other DO need help budgeting and or learning what is a need verses a want. But you can't just lump all people into one group and judge them all by that. And that seems to be a major focus in this thread. As I read through this thread it it truly saddens me how many have forgotten or make excuses for Christ call to help the hungry and needy.

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3 hours ago, zil said:

(b) if you take a job that meets some but not all of your needs, you lose the all benefits - how stupid is that)

This, IMO, is the worst of it because it discourages any attempt to improve one's situation.  Far better would be a system where you only lose, say, 75% of what you earn, so the remaining 25% is sort of a bonus for working, and your benefits don't completely stop until you're earning more than the benefits were to start with. (Which also should be a much less comfortable lifestyle than many are making of it, but should provide the specific things necessary to find, get and keep a job.  Thus a lot less totally discretionary funding, and some specific benefits for work clothes, basic transportation, vocational training, etc.)

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1 minute ago, miav said:

As I read through this thread it it truly saddens me how many have forgotten or make excuses for Christ call to help the hungry and needy.

And...more nonsense demonizing.

You're being saddened by something that isn't true. That's.....sad.

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1 hour ago, JohnsonJones said:

No, I'm not taking condemnation as that, but I DO know WHY it was put into place.  We have had people starve in the US.  We have had some very terrible things happen in the US, and it was particularly bad in the Depression era. 

During that time period people were FAR more generous then we were.  It was not uncommon for people to knock on others doors and be given meals (they'd stand a chance of getting shot these days, or the police being called to cart them off, ironic that it is more likely they get a meal in jail than from their fellow men).  However, even at that time they had some terrible tragedies going on.  Social Security, Welfare, and other social nets were created because our charity WAS NOT working in these instances. 

You seem to have an incomplete picture of history.  Charities were inadequate during the depression, not because people stopped being charitable, but because the great depression was worse than any in US history.

But do you know the historical reason why it was a "great" depression when elsewhere in the world it was merely a "depression"?

With all previous depressions, private industry and charities were there to fix things.  The government didn't do anything to help.  And the system worked.  Each depression was neither great in severity nor duration until the great depression.

But during the 20s, greater sentiment was growing that the government was there to "provide for the general welfare" rather than "promote the general welfare".  As such, Hoover was kicked out and FDR was voted in.  Every time the private sector got together to boost the economy, FDR issued another executive order that messed up the private sector's plans just so he would look like he was helping -- but it made things worse.  Several cycles later the private sector gave up.  The New Deal simply meant that whatever efforts private industry came up with to boost their own sales, production, AND employment, the government negated.

So, the very existence of government handouts hampered private industry.  That is the complete history which you'll tend to ignore because it doesn't fit your paradigm.

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11 minutes ago, miav said:

As I read through this thread it it truly saddens me how many have forgotten or make excuses for Christ call to help the hungry and needy.

Yet again, you're stating that just because we don't believe government is the appropriate conduit, we, therefore must be unwilling to give to the poor.

That's simply wrong.  You don't get to assume the moral high ground on this.

See Luke 12

Edited by Guest
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1 hour ago, JohnsonJones said:

 

 

27 minutes ago, miav said:

As I read through this thread it it truly saddens me how many have forgotten or make excuses for Christ call to help the hungry and needy.

Let me ask both of you.  Do you think it is moral for government to spend trillions of dollars on welfare systems and be in debt for $19+Trillion and rapidly rising and still have the same, if not more, poor American people?

Edited by anatess2
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19 minutes ago, miav said:

That's a great chapter for you to read and ponder.

 Judging are we?  Assuming?  Accusing?  Inaccurately, I might add.

The rubber and glue argument wore out in 3rd grade.  Christ said that the person wanting to receive was the covetous one, not the one who withheld.  And you're still assuming I withhold.  Where exactly are you getting that from?

Edited by Guest
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10 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Judging are we?  Assuming?  Accusing?  Inaccurately, I might add.

And how did I judge you? Accuse you? Abd assume anything? I think you are the one "judging, assuming and accusing". Not judging or assuming or accusing you of anything .

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7 minutes ago, miav said:

And how did I judge you? Accuse you? Abd assume anything? I think you are the one "judging, assuming and accusing". Not judging or assuming or accusing you of anything .

1 hour ago, miav said:

 As I read through this thread it it truly saddens me how many have forgotten or make excuses for Christ call to help the hungry and needy.

34 minutes ago, miav said:

That's a great chapter for you to read and ponder.

Why suggest I need to read and ponder?  Why not say you need to read and ponder? No, you don't get to play semantics and say you didn't say this or that.  The meaning was there and you know it.  

What excuses have we made?  What have we forgotten? Who hasn't helped the hungry and needy?  

What statistics have shown is that those who cry out for more government assistance are the ones who have made the fewest/smallest donations to help the poor, the lowest level of service for the poor and needy.

Don't think you can take the high ground on this because it's just a scaffold slowly sinking in mud.

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