person0 Posted March 31, 2017 Report Share Posted March 31, 2017 Givens: 1) Male Person (A) 2) Female Person (B) 3) A deserted island large enough with sufficient variation to provide safety from the elements. 3') Could be any secluded environment such as outer space like in the new movie 'Passengers'. 4) The island has sufficient vegetation to sustain life for an indefinite period of time and Persons A and B are capable of harvesting/accessing it to support themselves. 5) Neither person has any reason to believe they will be rescued or discovered. 5.1) This does not mean it won't eventually happen, it might or might not. 6) Everything we currently know about the gospel and reality is still in effect. 7) Persons A and B are not married to each other, both are healthy and relatively young. Problem: Physical intimacy outside the bounds of being 'legally and lawfully wedded' is sinful and contradictory to the commandments of God. However, Spencer W. Kimball has acknowledged: Quote "[Satan] knows that if he can get a boy and a girl to sit in the car late enough after the dance, or to park long enough in the dark at the end of the lane, the best boy and the best girl will finally succumb and fall. He knows that all have a limit to their resistance” (Miracle of Forgiveness, p. 66) (Aaronic Priesthood Manual 3 Lesson 26: Blessings of Chastity) Question: In the given scenario, how could Persons A and B solve the problem to remain faithful while also not remaining celibate until death? Possible Answer: They formally establish their own (2 person) society and in the process establish laws. One of those laws determines what is considered 'legal and lawful' marriage in their society. They abide the law they have established for themselves and thus are married, resolving their predicament. Other Items to Consider: What if one or both of them were already married to someone else before finding themselves in their predicament? What if 10 -15 years down the road they are discovered and returned to normal society (especially if they were previously married)? What if they have children? Ideas anyone? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a mustard seed Posted March 31, 2017 Report Share Posted March 31, 2017 It would depend on their revelations from the Spirit and God. Always. They would not be justified in making the decision to be physically intimate with each other just because no other people are around. Especially if rescue is always still on the table as a possibility. They should keep the commandments as best they can because they're going to need the Holy Ghost with them to know the correct course(what if they are intentionally separated for the Lord's purpose and are supposed to start a small family on this little island? Only He would know and only He could tell them). In the end we have to be willing to obey Him in all things, whatever He asks of us. And if the rule given before they land on the island is "the law of chastity" and they get no answer contrary to that, then that is what they should keep. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zil Posted March 31, 2017 Report Share Posted March 31, 2017 You don't happen to be in Canada do you? Because the guy who posted the below (on a fountain pen forum) is from Canada, and I'm thinking you two might be experiencing symptoms of some environmental contamination... Quote Okay so let's say tomorrow production of fountain pens worldwide stops forever and no more pen servicing is available (very sad, I know) but you have a job in the government of an authoritarian country and you are forced to chose a fountain pen, and only that fountain pen, to do your job and if your pen breaks you are automatically tortured and sentenced to death, effective immediately (a, let's say, very very hypothetical scenario). Also you can't just quite your job or stage a coup so don't think about it . What, in your experience as a fountain pen enthusiast, would be your top choice of pen to survive as long as possible (i.e. which pen offers the best combination of working without professional maintenance (changing the ink sac, parts getting stuck or breaking off) and not breaking because you dropped it, in the long term)? Personally, I prefer to stick to my own problems without making up artificial ones. Sunday21 and Just_A_Guy 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vort Posted March 31, 2017 Report Share Posted March 31, 2017 Marriage is a social construct. You don't have to "formally" organize a society. Marriage itself need not be formalized by a ceremony; I see no reason why a man and woman could not simply agree (in public) that they're married, and the deed is done. This is in fact pretty much the case for our society, with a few legal formalities thrown in. In a situation such as you describe, if the two people agree that they are married and agree to act as such in all future circumstances, then as far as I am concerned, they're married and are free to act as such. If the man and/or woman were already married to another (presumed live) person, that adds a whole 'nother twist. Our covenants don't cease to be binding just because we find them inconvenient. That said, I would have a very hard time blaming someone who, in such a position, eventually dedicated himself to his "new life" and his "new wife" (or her "new husband", as the case may be). But even removing the question of chastity violations, this would be highly problematic if and when a child was born. What then? What becomes of the child? What if more than one child is born? There is a reason we live in societies composed of unrelated or distantly related people. Backroads and person0 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
person0 Posted March 31, 2017 Author Report Share Posted March 31, 2017 (edited) 12 minutes ago, Vort said: Marriage is a social construct. You don't have to "formally" organize a society. Marriage itself need not be formalized by a ceremony; I see no reason why a man and woman could not simply agree (in public) that they're married, and the deed is done. This is in fact pretty much the case for our society, with a few legal formalities thrown in. In a situation such as you describe, if the two people agree that they are married and agree to act as such in all future circumstances, then as far as I am concerned, they're married and are free to act as such. If the man and/or woman were already married to another (presumed live) person, that adds a whole 'nother twist. Our covenants don't cease to be binding just because we find them inconvenient. That said, I would have a very hard time blaming someone who, in such a position, eventually dedicated himself to his "new life" and his "new wife" (or her "new husband", as the case may be). But even removing the question of chastity violations, this would be highly problematic if and when a child was born. What then? What becomes of the child? What if more than one child is born? There is a reason we live in societies composed of unrelated or distantly related people. This is along my own line of thinking as well. As far as the dedication to the new spouse, we must also consider that the original spouse would likely presume the spouse on the island to be dead and may re-marry as well. As far as the kids though, at least 1 time in history something similar happened, however, I'm not certain that the current state of the gene pool could handle it happening again Edited March 31, 2017 by person0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 31, 2017 Report Share Posted March 31, 2017 (edited) 58 minutes ago, zil said: Because the guy who posted the below (on a fountain pen forum) is from Canada Uhmm... https://mormonhub.com/forums/topic/60706-im-really-trying-to-be-understanding/#comment-893991 elephant jokes... fountain pen forum... ... ... Uhmm... ... Edited March 31, 2017 by Guest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
person0 Posted March 31, 2017 Author Report Share Posted March 31, 2017 1 hour ago, zil said: You don't happen to be in Canada do you? Because the guy who posted the below (on a fountain pen forum) is from Canada, and I'm thinking you two might be experiencing symptoms of some environmental contamination... Personally, I prefer to stick to my own problems without making up artificial ones. I'm not in Canada, but that's an interesting way to ask people which pen they think is the best. I'm not a pen enthusiast, the next closest thing could be tech enthusiast but not even enough to be an early adopter, just to follow the news. My wife and I were discussing this scenario after watching the new movie 'Passengers' and I was curious to see other people's opinions on the matter. Either that or I just don't have enough of my own problems right now that I feel the need to create problems and solve them so that my existence is meaningful! Hero complex? zil 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
person0 Posted March 31, 2017 Author Report Share Posted March 31, 2017 12 minutes ago, Carborendum said: Uhmm... https://mormonhub.com/forums/topic/60706-im-really-trying-to-be-understanding/#comment-893991 elephant jokes... fountain pen forum... zil 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeuroTypical Posted March 31, 2017 Report Share Posted March 31, 2017 2 hours ago, person0 said: Givens: 1) Male Person (A) 2) Female Person (B) 3) A deserted island large enough with sufficient variation to provide safety from the elements. Don't really need to read the rest of the hypothetical to have a good understanding on what's going to end up happening. person0, mordorbund and Just_A_Guy 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
person0 Posted March 31, 2017 Author Report Share Posted March 31, 2017 1 minute ago, NeuroTypical said: Don't really need to read the rest of the hypothetical to have a good understanding on what's going to end up happening. Yes, very obvious , but is it acceptable/approve-able, in what context, and with what additional (if any) requirements? NeuroTypical 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 31, 2017 Report Share Posted March 31, 2017 1 hour ago, zil said: Because the guy who posted the below (on a fountain pen forum) is from Canada I'm sorry, zil. I just couldn't resist another jab at you about fountain pens. I will say that my family is very happy with the pens you sent us. But I had to give up mine because I simply couldn't write without it getting on my fingers. No, I didn't spend any time analyzing what it was about my writing that gives me that problem that no one else seems to have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 31, 2017 Report Share Posted March 31, 2017 Just now, person0 said: Yes, very obvious , but is it acceptable/approve-able, in what context, and with what additional (if any) requirements? The defining issue is: Are you still a part of that society that you just got detached from? If so, abide by those rules. If it is clear that the "society" cannot provide the support you need in this isolated circumstance, you may rethink whether you're part of that society or not. If you're not a part of that society anymore, then make your own rules. Time is a big enough factor here that you'd have to take that into account. This is not only because of "urges", but because time also speaks to the likelihood of rescue and being reunited with society. It speaks to the compatibility of the couple as well -- what if there are children? Are you going to be good parents on the island? If we were really on a different planet with no hope of rescue (assuming none of the practical issues of survival are present) and it is reasonable to assume that you can actually have a viable society and civilization grow from the two of you... then the Lord would call the man to be the prophet of that planet. Done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 31, 2017 Report Share Posted March 31, 2017 2 hours ago, person0 said: Givens: 1) Male Person (A) 2) Female Person (B) 3) A deserted island large enough with sufficient variation to provide safety from the elements. 3') Could be any secluded environment such as outer space like in the new movie 'Passengers'. 4) The island has sufficient vegetation to sustain life for an indefinite period of time and Persons A and B are capable of harvesting/accessing it to support themselves. 5) Neither person has any reason to believe they will be rescued or discovered. 5.1) This does not mean it won't eventually happen, it might or might not. 6) Everything we currently know about the gospel and reality is still in effect. 7) Persons A and B are not married to each other, both are healthy and relatively young. Problem: Physical intimacy outside the bounds of being 'legally and lawfully wedded' is sinful and contradictory to the commandments of God. However, Spencer W. Kimball has acknowledged: Question: In the given scenario, how could Persons A and B solve the problem to remain faithful while also not remaining celibate until death? Possible Answer: They formally establish their own (2 person) society and in the process establish laws. One of those laws determines what is considered 'legal and lawful' marriage in their society. They abide the law they have established for themselves and thus are married, resolving their predicament. Other Items to Consider: What if one or both of them were already married to someone else before finding themselves in their predicament? What if 10 -15 years down the road they are discovered and returned to normal society (especially if they were previously married)? What if they have children? Ideas anyone? This sounds like the plot of a trashy romance novel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
person0 Posted March 31, 2017 Author Report Share Posted March 31, 2017 2 minutes ago, DoctorLemon said: This sounds like the plot of a trashy romance novel. I'll write it if you'll market it, 50/50 split! eddified 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 31, 2017 Report Share Posted March 31, 2017 1 minute ago, person0 said: I'll write it if you'll market it, 50/50 split! There is a problem. I actually like having this thing called a temple recommend. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vort Posted March 31, 2017 Report Share Posted March 31, 2017 You find the gold and I'll share it with ya, fifty-fifty! zil 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 31, 2017 Report Share Posted March 31, 2017 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Vort said: You find the gold and I'll share it with ya, fifty-fifty! You want into this romance novel stuff too? I thought you were incorruptible. Edited March 31, 2017 by DoctorLemon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
person0 Posted March 31, 2017 Author Report Share Posted March 31, 2017 (edited) 14 minutes ago, Vort said: You find the gold and I'll share it with ya, fifty-fifty! Sadly, no gold How about this lovely assortment of conch shells? Edited March 31, 2017 by person0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vort Posted March 31, 2017 Report Share Posted March 31, 2017 1 minute ago, DoctorLemon said: You want into this romance novel stuff too? I thought you were incorruptible. Just quoting the ever-quotable Yosemite Sam. zil and person0 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zil Posted March 31, 2017 Report Share Posted March 31, 2017 1 hour ago, Carborendum said: jab Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrmarklin Posted April 2, 2017 Report Share Posted April 2, 2017 On 3/31/2017 at 10:29 AM, DoctorLemon said: This sounds like the plot of a trashy romance novel. Movies have been made with this premise. I don't recall the names but one in the 30s with Carey Grant and the remake in the 60s with Doris Day. The movies were more chaste back then. I don't see any more remakes given today's society.:-) Backroads 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackmarch Posted April 2, 2017 Report Share Posted April 2, 2017 On March 31, 2017 at 8:42 AM, person0 said: Givens: 1) Male Person (A) 2) Female Person (B) 3) A deserted island large enough with sufficient variation to provide safety from the elements. 3') Could be any secluded environment such as outer space like in the new movie 'Passengers'. 4) The island has sufficient vegetation to sustain life for an indefinite period of time and Persons A and B are capable of harvesting/accessing it to support themselves. 5) Neither person has any reason to believe they will be rescued or discovered. 5.1) This does not mean it won't eventually happen, it might or might not. 6) Everything we currently know about the gospel and reality is still in effect. 7) Persons A and B are not married to each other, both are healthy and relatively young. Problem: Physical intimacy outside the bounds of being 'legally and lawfully wedded' is sinful and contradictory to the commandments of God. However, Spencer W. Kimball has acknowledged: Question: In the given scenario, how could Persons A and B solve the problem to remain faithful while also not remaining celibate until death? Possible Answer: They formally establish their own (2 person) society and in the process establish laws. One of those laws determines what is considered 'legal and lawful' marriage in their society. They abide the law they have established for themselves and thus are married, resolving their predicament. Other Items to Consider: What if one or both of them were already married to someone else before finding themselves in their predicament? What if 10 -15 years down the road they are discovered and returned to normal society (especially if they were previously married)? What if they have children? Ideas anyone? If not married, i imagine that if they have done all they could to be rescued and to find out they would not be rescued that they could make vows to each other. Were they to be rescued theybwould have to do everything to make their relationship formalized legally. If they are already married, then nope... The only exception i can see to that is if everyone else in the world were killed or something. person0 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
person0 Posted April 2, 2017 Author Report Share Posted April 2, 2017 50 minutes ago, Blackmarch said: "If they are already married, then nope... The only exception i can see to that is if everyone else in the world were killed or something." On the first part agreed 100%. But what about the non-stranded spouse? Say 1 year has passed, the people are presumed dead, their spouses start dating and re-marry other people, did they mess up by re-marrying? If not, and the spouse can remarry, is it still unreasonable for the 'islanders' to re-marry each other? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackmarch Posted April 2, 2017 Report Share Posted April 2, 2017 2 hours ago, person0 said: On the first part agreed 100%. But what about the non-stranded spouse? Say 1 year has passed, the people are presumed dead, their spouses start dating and re-marry other people, did they mess up by re-marrying? If not, and the spouse can remarry, is it still unreasonable for the 'islanders' to re-marry each other? If the nonstranded spouse is convinced by authorities that stranded spouse is dead officially, the nonstranded spouse is off the hook if deciding to remarry. However things would get chaotic should the stranded party were to return... In which case the promise with the highest priority to honor would be the more recent one, which would then let the formerly stranded one remarry at this point in time- that would be the cleanest solution to the mess. Alternatively i suppose the nonstranded spouse would be justified for a divorce on the grounds of having been given false information. however as this does invlve a divorce, especially regarding an innocent party, this would be harder to justify. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Backroads Posted April 2, 2017 Report Share Posted April 2, 2017 Can't they just stay forever on this lovely island/space craft forever and hide from rescuers, if any ever appear? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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