Tithing - What to say and NOT to say


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53 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

So, you've liquidated all your properties and given all the funds to the Church?  So, now you're homeless?

Yes. (But note, that the scriptures say "surplus property" and not all property. But anyway,  my wife and and I have moved in with her elderly parents and we take care of them and I pay them rent in order to help them and it helps us as well. We all take care of each other. My father in law who is in his 80s has already torn a bicep carrying a box into the house and if I don't watch him closely, he will climb up on the roof to work on the swamp cooler or up a fruit tree to prune it. He's a stubborn old coot, but a gentle human being who maybe just wants some attention. Ever since his hometeacher died a couple years ago, nobody comes to check up on him. So I do. My sons, who my wife and I adopted have long since moved out of the house I used to live in, which I had built myself, having been a general contractor. It was extremely challenging to raise them right, having been through the system and now in and out of jail and prison. I have done my best by them and still try, but I'm poor now so I can't help them like I once could.

I used to own several businesses, which pulled in tens of thousands/month. I was buying toys and living the life. The Lord then taught me that I was exalting myself and I had forgotten something that he taught me about a promise I had forgotten when I was young. The long story short, I abased myself. I gave and sold everything, helped others, the church and now I simply pay what is due annually accordingly. I have come to loathe money, loathe status, in a nutshell, I loathe worldliness. When I'm not at my now day job (I no longer have my businesses except one, which makes very little to nothing), I am serving others, reading/studying the scriptures or working on something personal for the Lord. That sums up my life today. I have no regrets and along the way over the last ten years, the Lord has let me know that He is with me. I have also made an intensive study of Joseph Smith Lectures on Faith and have found comfort in the following verse:

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2:55 Let us here observe, that after any portion of the human family are made acquainted with the important fact that there is a God who has created and does uphold all things, the extent of their knowledge, respecting his character and glory, will depend upon their diligence and faithfulness in seeking after him, until like Enoch the brother of Jared, and Moses, they shall obtain faith in God, and power with him to behold him face to face.

and its associated question:

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Question 146: How do men obtain a knowledge of the glory of God, his perfections and attributes?
By devoting themselves to his service, through prayer and supplication incessantly, strengthening their faith in him, until like Enoch, the brother of Jared, and Moses, they obtain a manifestation of God to themselves. (2:55)

Once I made the decision some time ago to take the scriptures seriously (after all the Lord gave the Book of Mormon to us by covenant), I have experienced wonderful things, including a promise the Lord made to me personally by covenant. But I also know it's only the beginning. It's why I'm so passionate about sticking to the scriptures and taking the Lord's words at face value and trying to live my life according to what He has declared as we read in the scripture (His laws, commandments, teachings, etc) when I post comments online. They are the "standard" works for a reason. I probably sound like some fringe crazy guy to most members, perhaps even radical, but I don't mind. Truth is all that matters to me as does doing what the Lord requires the way the Lord requires it, not more, not less. I have learned that improvising is not fruitful when it comes to obeying the Lord with exactness. But I am still learning. 

Edited by skalenfehl
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9 hours ago, mordorbund said:

I give you kudos @skalenfehl. Most people I hear who talk about reading 119 "in context" use it to justify only paying tithing on their annual surplus, which unsurprisingly results in very little. You are the first person I'm aware of who takes verse 1 at face value and says, "first things first, the surplus goes to Zion, and then the 1/10 kicks in." I'll still continue to tithe in a more traditional way, but I respect you for honoring both parts.

Thank you for your kind words. It has proven fruitful to do what the Lord requires the way the Lord requires it. I do confess that I used to justify myself often for doing or not doing things the way you mention. It is in our nature to rationalize and improvise.

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28 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

At the very least, @skalenfehl, I appreciate these conversations because it gets me reflecting on my own attitudes about consecrating all that I have to the Lord.

That reminds me...after Christ's death, more and more Jews converted to Him and became outcasts from the church. I want to share something with you in the book of Acts:

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Acts 4: 

31 ¶ And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness.

32 And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common.

33 And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all.

34 Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold,

35 And laid them down at the apostles’ feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need.

36 And Joses, who by the apostles was surnamed Barnabas, (which is, being interpreted, The son of consolation,) a Levite, and of the country of Cyprus,

37 Having land, sold it, and brought the money, and laid it at the apostles’ feet.

The story continues:

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Acts 5:

1 But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession,

2 And kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles’ feet.

3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?

4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.

5 And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things.

6 And the young men arose, wound him up, and carried him out, and buried him.

7 And it was about the space of three hours after, when his wife, not knowing what was done, came in.

8 And Peter answered unto her, Tell me whether ye sold the land for so much? And she said, Yea, for so much.

9 Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband are at the door, and shall carry thee out.

10 Then fell she down straightway at his feet, and yielded up the ghost: and the young men came in, and found her dead, and, carrying her forth, buried her by her husband.

11 And great fear came upon all the church, and upon as many as heard these things.

Here we have, in effect, Zion, a people abiding a Terrestrial Law, apart from Jerusalem having "all things common." (By the way, many people use the term "all things in common, which is incorrect in this context). They had "all things common" among them as did peoples in the Book of Mormon. But a man and his wife, who after having received the Holy Ghost being baptized with fire, chose to lie about their offerings. And for it they gave up the ghost and died as to the flesh as we read above in ch 5. 

Now I will give you something to ponder. If we are given the Holy Ghost when we are baptized AND we covenant to obey the law of consecration, why is the same law or covenant ineffectual to the countless Mormons who become baptized, endowed and then do not keep their covenants (including consecration) and/or fall away into inactivity? What is the difference if we have the "fullness" today compared with Ananias and Sapphira two thousand years ago? Why are we not giving up the ghost left and right? I won't answer it for you, but will leave it to you to work it out in your life if you so choose.

Edited by skalenfehl
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10 hours ago, mordorbund said:

I give you kudos @skalenfehl. Most people I hear who talk about reading 119 "in context" use it to justify only paying tithing on their annual surplus, which unsurprisingly results in very little. You are the first person I'm aware of who takes verse 1 at face value and says, "first things first, the surplus goes to Zion, and then the 1/10 kicks in." I'll still continue to tithe in a more traditional way, but I respect you for honoring both parts.

One thing to bear in mind is that, if you were born into the Church and have consistently paid tithing from your infancy--you have, arguably, fulfilled the technical requirement of initial consecration.  It's just that, when you entered the covenant, you had no net worth to consecrate.  

The trouble is, that sets up a divide between a thirty-year-old lifelong member and a thirty-year-old convert of identical net worth.  Under a literalist reading the lifelong member, having already been tithed, can retain his estate and continue to augment it; whereas the convert, having lived a tithe-free life, must turn everything over to the church and start rebuilding his estate anew. In the long run this is just, IMHO; but in the short run I can see how people would consider it unfair; and it creates a substantial deterrent to conversion for the wealthy and/or elderly.  That the Church has chosen to duck the issue in its current practice of tithing is at least understandable.

Incidentally, @skalenfehl, do you mind if I ask how your bishop reacted when you presented your consecration to him?

Edited by Just_A_Guy
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18 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

Incidentally, @skalenfehl, do you mind if I ask how your bishop reacted when you presented your consecration to him?

Well...my circumstance is unique and I didn't present it to my current bishop. I prefer to keep this personal so I apologize for not going over details. I've only been in this ward two years now, going on three. I went through different wards having had to move often in the last ten years. When I went to my first tithing settlement with my current bishop, he lectured me on wearing a beard (or not wearing one) and then lectured me on wearing a "priesthood uniform," insisting that I wear a shirt and tie to church. I disagreed with his philosophy regarding the "priesthood uniform," but I told him that if he really wanted me to, I would do it for him (and not because I agree that wearing a white shirt and a necktie constitutes a priesthood uniform). I do love my bishop. He's a decent fellow, but we disagree on some things and I'll leave it at that.

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3 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

I appreciate your candor; thanks.

You're welcome. :)

One last thing, may I recommend reading the Lectures on Faith, especially the sixth lecture, which applies to us (well, it all very much applies to us), but more specifically the following verse:

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9. It was in offering sacrifices that Abel, the first martyr, obtained knowledge that he was accepted of God. And from the days of righteous Abel to the present time, the knowledge that men have that they are accepted in the sight of God, is obtained by offering sacrifice: and in the last days, before the Lord comes, he is to gather together his saints who have made a covenant with him by sacrifice. Psalms 50:3-5: Our God shall clime, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him. He shall call to the heavens from above, and to the earth, that he may judge his people. Gather my saints together unto me; those that have made a covenant unto me by sacrifice.

 

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20 minutes ago, skalenfehl said:

One last thing, may I recommend reading the Lectures on Faith, especially the sixth lecture, which applies to us (well, it all very much applies to us), but more specifically the following verse:

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9. It was in offering sacrifices that Abel, the first martyr, obtained knowledge that he was accepted of God. And from the days of righteous Abel to the present time, the knowledge that men have that they are accepted in the sight of God, is obtained by offering sacrifice: and in the last days, before the Lord comes, he is to gather together his saints who have made a covenant with him by sacrifice. Psalms 50:3-5: Our God shall clime, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him. He shall call to the heavens from above, and to the earth, that he may judge his people. Gather my saints together unto me; those that have made a covenant unto me by sacrifice.

Isn't this the selfsame covenant we have all made as part of our endowment? If we keep our temple covenants, including our covenant to live the law of sacrifice, this promise applies to us. Not sure how this has anything to do with other "private" or nonstandard covenants outside of those given to all faithful members.

Edited by Vort
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