Crisis of Faith - Dear John Letters

[Backroads]

11 minutes ago, Lostboy289 said:

And in your example, how would Person A leave Person B for Person C if her and Person C weren't in some way cultivating that relationship beforehand? How would they even know that the feelings are reciprocated if there wasn't some kind of discussion about it?

Especially if Person A and Person C were close friends, that's cold. And frankly, regardless of relationships working out or not, its weird for a friend to show so little concern for his friend's feelings just because he wants his friend's girl.

They may not have been actively cultivating a relationship. It very well could be Person A saw potential in Person C while also not being satisfied in the relationship  with Person B. So, to be fair, they leave an unsatisfactory relationship in hope of finding a better one.

I think it's cold to think a person still belongs to you after a relationship has ended.

How long do adults have to fret over others' feelings?

Edited April 19, 2017 by Backroads

[Latter-Day Marriage]

9 hours ago, Lostboy289 said:

So just so I'm clear, when my girlfriend asked me to be her boyfriend and date me exclusively, what did I agree to?

I guess is it too much to ask for the best of both worlds?

An eternal marriage and all the benefits we talk about, started with a healthy relationship with a certain level of expected fidelity, trust, commitment, and stability that increases over time?

You are agreeing to be her exclusive boyfriend up until one of you no longer wants that and not a second longer.

In the end with things this way you DO get the best of both worlds.  You get a wife who stays with you because she wants to be with you more than anybody else, who could have left for another man back when you were dating but she didn't because she loves you better than anybody else, not because all her other options vanished when she started dating you.

[Guest MormonGator]

17 minutes ago, Backroads said:

I think it's cold to think a person still belongs to you after a relationship has ended.

It's not that someone still "belongs" to you. It's common courtesy and respect for the friendship. 

I have many flaws as a boyfriend/husband but something I'm not is possessive. I'm a big believer in freedom.  That said, I can honestly say that none of my friends (and shockingly, I do have them) would ever date one of my exes without at least asking "Dude, are you okay with this?" Not out of permission, out of respect for our friendship. 

I can't imagine dating an ex girlfriends friends. It's just so disrespectful to her. And these are my EXES I'm talking about. Some who want me dead and with good reason.  Same with my guy friends exes. I can't imagine that either. 

Edited April 19, 2017 by MormonGator

[Lostboy289]

 

8 minutes ago, Backroads said:

They may not have been actively cultivating a relationship. It very well could be Person A saw potential in Person C while also not being satisfied in the relationship  with Person B. So, to be fair, they leave an unsatisfactory relationship in hope of finding a better one.

I think it's cold to think a person still belongs to you after a relationship has ended.

Its not that they belong to you. Its not really even about the girl. (or guy. I don't know why we keep using a girl as an example)

Its more that these things are painful under the best circumstances, and you are showing respect for your friends feelings by not adding to his pain.

This applies even more so if you are the reason the relationship ended. In that case you are deliberately causing suffering in another person who you call a friend just to get something you want.

Edited April 19, 2017 by Lostboy289

[Latter-Day Marriage]

1 hour ago, Lostboy289 said:

She is simply a girl you are interested in. And when the church teaches us that literally any worthy Brother and Sister can form an eternal marriage, there is no point other than selfishness in insisting that woman be someone that your friend has already chosen as his.

There you go treating her like an object again.  He doesn't get to choose her to be his, it is a mutual choice and if somebody changes their mind it is over.  Also, while any worthy Brother and Sister can form an eternal marriage we don't just go and marry the first temple worthy person that comes along and disregard everything else about them.  We are told to choose very carefully somebody we are compatible with and love.

If you have to have all these special social rules to keep a girl from leaving you, then she doesn't really love you that much does she? 

[Backroads]

10 minutes ago, Lostboy289 said:

 

Its not that they belong to you. Its not really even about the girl. (or guy. I don't know why we keep using a girl as an example)

Its more that these things are painful under the best circumstances, and you are showing respect for your friends feelings by not adding to his pain.

This applies even more so if you are the reason the relationship ended. In that case you are deliberately causing suffering in another person who you call a friend just to get something you want.

 

11 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

It's not that someone still "belongs" to you. It's common courtesy and respect for the friendship. 

I have many flaws as a boyfriend/husband but something I'm not is possessive. I'm a big believer in freedom.  That said, I can honestly say that none of my friends (and shockingly, I do have them) would ever date one of my exes without at least asking "Dude, are you okay with this?" Not out of permission, out of respect for our friendship. 

I can't imagine dating an ex girlfriends friends. It's just so disrespectful to her. And these are my EXES I'm talking about. Same with my guy friends exes. I can't imagine that either. 

And is your friend not causing you pain by not allowing you to pursue an adult relationship?

While I can sympathize with not wanting to cause another pain, this really seems to be illogical. People really shouldn't be allowed to date anyone just because someone's feelings might get hurt?

I guess I just want a little more rationality than FEELINGS!

Edited April 19, 2017 by Backroads

[The Folk Prophet]

8 minutes ago, Lostboy289 said:

In that case you are deliberately causing suffering in another person 

There is a time and a place where it is right to deliberately cause suffering in another person.

I'm not saying said specific person who you speak of was right. Just that the implication that said person was wrong merely because they deliberately caused suffering is invalid.

[Guest MormonGator]

7 minutes ago, Backroads said:

 

And is your friend not causing you pain by not allowing you to pursue an adult relationship?

While I can sympathize with not wanting to cause another pain, this really seems to be illogical. People really shouldn't be allowed to date anyone just because someone's feelings might get hurt?

 

Obviously, I see it differently. And it's not personal @Backroads. You know how much I like you. 

But to me, you've already lost a relationship. Why put a friendship at risk too? I place a very high value on my friends, I love them all dearly. Being a charming, charismatic and handsome guy, I'm sure I could find another girlfriend (I'm humble too). Why risk a friendship? Wait a few months, someone else will come along.  The value I place on friendship is huge. Friends mean more to me than family. 

Um, for the record I'm very happily married so I don't have a dog in the fight. But I've seen situations like this where the friendship is seriously damaged. Ironically, the genders have been reversed. 

Edited April 19, 2017 by MormonGator

[Backroads]

1 minute ago, MormonGator said:

Obviously, I see it differently. And it's not personal @Backroads. You know how much I like you. 

But to me, you've already lost a relationship. Why put a friendship at risk too? I place a very high value on my friends, I love them all dearly. Being a charming, charismatic and handsome guy, I'm sure I could find another girlfriend (I'm humble too). Why risk a friendship? Wait a few months, someone else will come along.  

Um, for the record I'm very happily married so I don't have a dog in the fight. But I've seen situations like this where the friendship is seriously damaged. Ironically, the genders have been reversed. 

Yes, I suppose I just see it differently. Probably from having grown up in the Mormon Corridor. I think I see what you're getting at, but I suppose I still keep wondering why the friend is having so much power over everyone. Because that's the view I can't shake.

And you know that if we were both widowed...

we could play tabletop card games together.

Edited April 19, 2017 by Backroads

[Lostboy289]

Quote

And is your friend not causing you pain by not allowing you to pursue an adult relationship?

While I can sympathize with not wanting to cause another pain, this really seems to be illogical. People really shouldn't be allowed to date anyone just because someone's feelings might get hurt?

No, its that friends shouldn't be allowed to date that specific person. There are plenty of other people they could pursue a relationship with, it doesn't have to be that specific person.

It may annoy you that your romantic options are limited by one person, but it doesn't compare to the suffering your recently dumped friend is going through. And adding to it is just kicking them while they're down.

Quote

I guess I just want a little more rationality than FEELINGS!

Why is that reason not good enough? We are all here in the first place because we believe in the holiness and eternal truth of a man who taught us above all else, love one another.

Quote

I think I see what you're getting at, but I suppose I still keep wondering why the friend is having so much power over everyone. Because that's the view I can't shake.

The friend doesn't have power over you any more than the person that holds the door open for you has in forcing you to say "thank you".

Hes not forcing you or even asking you to say it. Its just rude not to.

Quote

There is a time and a place where it is right to deliberately cause suffering in another person.

And you really think that time and place is when you decide you are attracted to your friend's girlfriend?

Edited April 19, 2017 by Lostboy289

[NeuroTypical]

BTW, this entire thread has re-affirmed my utter genius to just not date at all until I was 26.  I should like start a movement.  Print T-shirts and stuff.  The shirts would have all the text in this thread arranged to make a picture of two teenagers in pain because they're teenagers trying to have a relationship and we all know that usually involves pain.

 

[Guest MormonGator]

3 minutes ago, Backroads said:

Yes, I suppose I just see it differently. Probably from having grown up in the Mormon Corridor. I think I see what you're getting at, but I suppose I still keep wondering why the friend is having so much power over everyone. Because that's the view I can't shake.

And you know that if we were both widowed...

we could play tabletop card games together.

LOL. That's awesome. 

And in the end it doesn't matter. If we agreed on everything we would be in North Korea. Or California. 

[Vort]

1 minute ago, Lostboy289 said:

No, its that friends shouldn't be allowed to date that specific person. There are plenty of other people they could pursue a relationship with, it doesn't have to be that specific person.

It may annoy you that your romantic options are limited by one person, but it doesn't compare to the suffering your recently dumped friend is going through. And adding to it is just kicking them while they're down.

On the contrary. The possibility of forming an eternal relationship so infinitely outweighs the possibility of hurt feelings that no rational comparison can be made.

[Lostboy289]

1 minute ago, Vort said:

On the contrary. The possibility of forming an eternal relationship so infinitely outweighs the possibility of hurt feelings that no rational comparison can be made.

And see, that's all it is. Just a possibility. No possibility for your happiness is worth definitely hurting someone. Especially when there are millions of other good candidates.  This is madness, and you are correct. No rational comparison can be made.

[Vort]

Just now, Lostboy289 said:

No possibility for your happiness is worth definitely hurting someone.

No possibility of eternal joy merits temporarily bruising someone's feelings or ego?

I have no response to that. I will just let the statement stand on its own merits and invite others to judge it.

[eddified]

I think we can all agree (or at least mostly agree) that going dishonestly behind your S.O.'s back to date someone else is wrong, not because of the "dating someone else" bit, but because of the "sneaking around" and "being dishonest" bit. 

It seems to me like most people here are just saying "the dating game is harsh, it just is, and broken hearts are just a necessary evil in the dating game". This, to @Lostboy289, sounds like we're all saying "go behind your S.O.'s back all you want, it's fine!" when in fact we are NOT saying that. We are just saying that the longer a commitment is made to honor a pie-in-the-sky commitment to stay true for 24 months, when in fact the feelings are already gone, the worse the situation gets. It's best to rip the bandaid off sooner. There is no reason whatsoever in "staying true" to a 24 month commitment when the feelings are no longer there. It's better to rip the bandaid off and let the S.O. know that feelings are no longer there (at least the vast majority of people with 20/20 hindsight would probably agree -- but not everyone, I guess). This however does NOT give license to be dishonest and date around while making the S.O. think there is no dating going on. If the girl wants to date other guys while the S.O. is on his mission, she should tell him that first.

@Lostboy289, I'm really sorry about your pain. I really am. I've been there. I got a Dear John letter when I was on my mission*. I suggest you hold tight to Christ and His gospel for both your healing, and for strength to your faith. How others live the gospel (or rather, how they fail to live the gospel) shouldn't affect your faith, since our faith should be in Christ and His gospel, and in his priesthood leaders (who aren't perfect, but we should have faith in them anyway). Our faith should not be in the culture of the church, nor how the people in your ward behave with respect to dating. I think it would be best if you came to just accept the church dating culture, warts and all, because the sooner you do, the sooner you can come to find peace, and the sooner you will be able to make the best of the situation. (Disclaimer: I also found the dating game to be very difficult. It was hard for me to come to terms with the culture.) However, I think you're getting the wrong idea from this thread. I am a lifelong member. I dated girls at BYU. So I know some things about Mormon dating culture, and I can tell you that yes, there is still respect for your man-friends. There are social constructs that help us to keep our relationships with our man-friends. As you mentioned, going after my buddy's S.O. is still considered cold and is considered betrayal. This is true in the church and out. However, is it a sin? I'm not so sure it is. Social constructs are there for good reasons, but breaking them doesn't automatically mean I've sinned. Perhaps if I wanted to go after my buddy's S.O. then the righteous thing would be to tell him, "Hey buddy, I'm going to ask your girlfriend out. I understand it will probably harm our relationship, but I'm willing to take that risk." At least in this case there is no dishonesty going on. So, while breaking social norms, I'd say it could actually be considered morally fine to do this.

 

 

*While I did get a Dear John letter, it didn't really hurt that much because I was mature enough to know the odds of her waiting were low, and I realized that it was probably unwise for me to bank on her still being available after my mission. In other words, I came to terms with the fact that long-distance relationships just don't usually last. It's just how it is. It did hurt, but it certainly didn't ruin my life.

[Lostboy289]

Quote

No possibility of eternal joy merits temporarily bruising someone's feelings or ego?

When that possibility is one out of a million possibilities to the same exact eternal happiness, than yes, choosing the one path that involves betrayal of a friend and hurting him at a very hard time in his life is not merited.

This seems extremely close to "ends justify the means".

Edited April 19, 2017 by Lostboy289

[Backroads]

9 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

BTW, this entire thread has re-affirmed my utter genius to just not date at all until I was 26.  I should like start a movement.  Print T-shirts and stuff.  The shirts would have all the text in this thread arranged to make a picture of two teenagers in pain because they're teenagers trying to have a relationship and we all know that usually involves pain.

 

All you have to do is get a Sharpie and every copy of the "For the Strength of Youth" and cross out 16 and switch it to 26.

[The Folk Prophet]

18 minutes ago, Lostboy289 said:

And you really think that time and place is when you decide you are attracted to your friend's girlfriend?

That could be the perfect time.

[mordorbund]

duh duh, duh duh DAH DAH duh duh, dum dum.... dum dum

Hello Sharks!

Divorce in America is BIG Business, and is estimated to be a $50 billion industry. Just getting a small piece of that pie can be ridiculously profitable, but it is already fully saturated and cutthroat. In the drive to find gold in dissolving marriages, the industry has left an entire market untapped: dating. With centuries of case law to back it up, society has clear rules on how to break up existing marriage relationships, but what about other relationships? What about engagements, courtships, and just plain dating? What about hanging out, non-committal make-outs, and hooking up? What about long-distance relationships, poaching, and breakups? Wouldn't it be great if we could legally enshrine expectations so we all knew what each stage of the relationship actually meant?! We are COMMITTED.

At COMMITTED, we partner with couples who want to Define the Relationship to specifically delineate what each party can expect from the other. We also provide a service terminating the relationship. And where the divorce industry focuses on married couples as new clients with residuals from divorced customers, we get ev-er-y-one else! We get engaged people; we get people in a committed relationship; we get casual flingers; we even get divorced people hitting the singles scene anew. That means we also get every demographic: straight, gay, old, young (even teenagers!), rich, and richer!

Besides the services I already mentioned, our signature product is the Pre-Dumptual Agreement(R). Couples think it's great and former couples absolutely love it!

I am here today asking for $10M for 10% equity in the company. Honestly, I think it's a low evaluation given how big the business is waiting to explode. I'll use the money to grow the business in 2 ways: 1) I'll open more offices across the state of California, and 2) hire lobbyists to enshrine the dating code into law. Mr. Wonderful can already see where we're going with #2, but I'll say it anyway: By making it a part of the legal code, it will all but require a lawyer to be involved in forming and dissolving relationships. And where can you find a lawyer with the necessary experience in this branch of law? COMMITTED!

So who among you want to be committed to COMMITTED?

[Lostboy289]

26 minutes ago, eddified said:

 There are social constructs that help us to keep our relationships with our man-friends. As you mentioned, going after my buddy's S.O. is still considered cold and is considered betrayal. This is true in the church and out. However, is it a sin? I'm not so sure it is. Social constructs are there for good reasons, but breaking them doesn't automatically mean I've sinned. Perhaps if I wanted to go after my buddy's S.O. then the righteous thing would be to tell him, "Hey buddy, I'm going to ask your girlfriend out. I understand it will probably harm our relationship, but I'm willing to take that risk." At least in this case there is no dishonesty going on. So, while breaking social norms, I'd say it could actually be considered morally fine to do this.

Your post was all very reasonable and thought out except for this part. I disagree 100%. I refuse to believe that showing this amount of disrespect for a friend and his relationship is in any way less than morally wrong, and a sin in the most basic way. Honesty about our callousness does not justify it.

Jesus told us to Love God and Love one Another, and to keep those commandments above all others. If we can't even put aside our own desires to show compassion towards our brothers, then why the hell are we even here? We edify ourselves through our love and sacrifice for others, not in attaining that which we covet, regardless of how righteous those ends may be.

Edited April 19, 2017 by Lostboy289

[The Folk Prophet]

Ah, cussing... Respect increasing. Trust growing. Yes, yes. That's the ticket.

[NeuroTypical]

Forgiveness is there, mainly to help the person who was injured.

It seems pretty clear that God built a little heartbreak into the whole process of human relationships and finding love.  Seems like most people end up getting their heart broken at least once.   Wise words of facebook wisdom even include the process in lists of things well-rounded mature people must accomplish.  "Get your heart broken, then bounce back stronger".

 

[eddified]

25 minutes ago, Lostboy289 said:

Your post was all very reasonable and thought out except for this part. I disagree 100%. I refuse to believe that showing this amount of disrespect for a friend and his relationship is in any way less than morally wrong, and a sin in the most basic way. Honesty about our callousness does not justify it.

Jesus told us to Love God and Love one Another, and to keep those commandments above all others. If we can't even put aside our own desires to show compassion towards our brothers, then why the hell are we even here? We edify ourselves through our love and sacrifice for others, not in attaining that which we covet, regardless of how righteous those ends may be.

It's OK to disagree. Your devotion to your friends can be considered a huge asset. But please don't lose faith in the Restored Gospel of Jesus Christ because we have different outlooks on the dating game.

When I was in college, my best friend and roommate was interested in Girl A. So he told us that he had "dibs" on her. I respected that. I had "dibs" on Girl B, and had gone on a few dates with her. However, Girl A showed interest in me, not my roommate. And I wasn't so sure things were going well with my relationship with Girl B. Neither my roommate nor I had committed relationships going on, but we did respect each other's dibs. Since I'm such good friends with my roommate, I offered to swap our "dibs"... I let him have dibs on the girl I had previously had dibs on, and he let me have dibs on the girl I previously had had dibs on. Things worked out so well, I married the girl that he originally had dibs on, and he was my best man at my wedding! My roommate and I are still friends to this day. I've been happily married for 12 years. 

So, by being open with my roommate, we were able to keep good feelings between us in our relationship. The situation is a little different because we didn't have serious relationships before swapping our "dibs". I share the story though to show that if people are respectful of one another, things will work out. 

I think that's what you really want, right @Lostboy289? Respect. The church does teach that we should treat each other with love and respect. We're just saying that if your girlfriend starts to prefer someone else over you, then the respectful thing to do is for her to rip the bandaid off and tell you she now prefers someone else. 

I still maintain that it might be OK to break social norms, and it can be done respectfully. In dating relationships, it sounds like you think there are these black and white situations all the time, but the truth is, life (and especially dating) is not always black and white. Because of this, "loving and respecting" one person can perhaps seen as "disrespecting" someone else, from some point of view. However, I maintain we can love and respect everyone through a breakup.

I also please ask that you kindly refrain from using strong language. We're just trying to help. I do think many on this board are too harsh and too sarcastic in their advice, so I ask you, @Lostboy289, to please forgive them. We are here to learn to love, repent, and forgive. I wish you the best, @Lostboy289.

Edited April 19, 2017 by eddified

[estradling75]

2 hours ago, Lostboy289 said:

This is a much larger debate. However overall I tend to come down on the side that whenever a rule is made, more always follow it than before it was made, regardless of how unpopular that rule is.

Please note the side you come down on applies exclusively to only you.  Everyone else will take their own side like they have always done.  And the change you want does not happen