Crisis of Faith - Dear John Letters

[Backroads]

2 minutes ago, Lostboy289 said:

No, not at all. Read more carefully. But in the case of a Girl leaving a guy for his friend, and the friend going along with it, than yes, absolutly.

Even if they received spiritual prompting to date?

And don't presume to know what they felt or what answer they received.

[eddified]

@zil Really not sure what you mean by "Vulcan sounds better". This sounds like it has some meaning from another thread that I wasn't a part of, perhaps?

[zil]

3 minutes ago, Lostboy289 said:

No, not at all. Read more carefully. But in the case of a Girl leaving a guy for his friend, and the friend going along with it, than yes, absolutly.

Until you yourself are able to find a way that this scenario can happen without deceit and callousness, all the other people in the world will never convince you otherwise.  It is therefore pointless to go on trying to explain other possibilities.  I fear you are in for more pain than is necessary in life.  I wish you strength, peace, and healing through the Lord Jesus Christ.

[Lostboy289]

4 minutes ago, Backroads said:

Even if they received spiritual prompting to date?

And don't presume to know what they felt or what answer they received.

I know that you will never receive a spiritual prompting to sin, so yes, I do know that either they did not receive that revelation, or they severely misinterpreted it.

How "spiritual promptings" are simply us looking for permission to do what we simply desire strongly, and twisting whatever revelation we get (if any) to simply try and align the Lord's will with our own?

Quote

Until you yourself are able to find a way that this scenario can happen without deceit and callousness, all the other people in the world will never convince you otherwise.  It is therefore pointless to go on trying to explain other possibilities.  I fear you are in for more pain than is necessary in life.

It shouldn't be an issue, since for most Non-Mormons, this is universally considered wrong and therefore isn't an issue.

Edited April 19, 2017 by Lostboy289

[zil]

1 minute ago, eddified said:

@zil Really not sure what you mean by "Vulcan sounds better". This sounds like it has some meaning from another thread that I wasn't a part of, perhaps?

What an illogical response.  Vulcan > Spock > Star Trek?

[Backroads]

3 minutes ago, Lostboy289 said:

I know that you will never receive a spiritual prompting to sin, so yes, I do know that either they did not receive that revelation, or they severely misinterpreted it.

How many spiritual promptings are simply us looking for permission to do what we simply desire strongly?

The problem is we disagree on what's a sin and what's an uncomfortable consequence. She's not leaving her husband, she is picking a new dating partner. 

Edited April 19, 2017 by Backroads

[The Folk Prophet]

3 minutes ago, Backroads said:

The problem is we disagree on what's a sin and what's an uncomfortable consequence. She's not leaving her husband, she is picking a new dating partner. 

Snowflake millennials often think the greatest sin is hurting someone else's feelings.

[Lostboy289]

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The problem is we disagree on what's a sin and what's an uncomfortable consequence.

The Lord tells us to be kind, considerate, charitable, and empathetic

This situation is the exact opposite of this, so yes. Its a sin.

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@Lostboy289 yes my situation was different but it proves a point -- that mormon dating culture isn't so far off of what you might be used to. There will be differences though since Mormons generally assume there is no sexual relationship going on until marriage. I'm just trying to show you that we're not all dating callously, indifferent to other people's feelings. That's all. I was afraid you might get that feeling from what has been posted in this forum.

Honestly yes I do.

And the more responses I get, unfortunately the more I see that it is much more far off than I thought. Sexual relationship is irrelevant here. A complete lack of respect for a relationship or engagement is bad enough. But this also demonstrates a complete lack of respect for the bonds of friendship. Or even the complete lack of respect for anyone's feelings outside of your own.

5 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Snowflake millennials often think the greatest sin is hurting someone else's feelings.

Apparently Jesus was the first "snowflake millenial" as you have so patronizingly stated.

 

Edited April 19, 2017 by Lostboy289

[The Folk Prophet]

8 minutes ago, Lostboy289 said:

And the more responses I get, unfortunately the more I see that it is much more far off than I thought. Sexual relationship is irrelevant here. A complete lack of respect for a relationship or engagement is bad enough. But this also demonstrates a complete lack of respect for the bonds of friendship. Or even the complete lack of respect for anyone's feelings outside of your own.

12 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Snowflake millennials often think the greatest sin is hurting someone else's feelings.

 

Wait. You didn't think I meant you...did you?

[zil]

7 minutes ago, Lostboy289 said:

Or even the complete lack of respect for anyone's feelings outside of your own.

I challenge you to take on a personal goal to read all the books of scripture - start wherever you wish.  Keep a notebook wherein you note each incidence where someone's feelings probably got hurt - the verses will not call this out, so you'll have to deduce from the situation that person(s) X would likely have had their feelings hurt.  Then determine whether what led to the hurt feelings was right or wrong.  Whose action was it that led to the hurt feelings?  What kind of person was this?  Why did they do what they did?

And I will reiterate, no one I know, on this forum or otherwise, wants to hurt others' feelings, nor do they think it's OK for people to behave with complete indifference toward others' feelings.  But that's not the same as never doing anything that might hurt another's feelings.

[Vort]

12 minutes ago, Lostboy289 said:

14 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Snowflake millennials often think the greatest sin is hurting someone else's feelings.

Apparently Jesus was the first "snowflake millenial" as you have so patronizingly stated.

Jesus thought that the greatest sin was hurting someone else's feelings?

[Guest MormonGator]

3 minutes ago, zil said:

And I will reiterate, no one I know, on this forum or otherwise, wants to hurt others' feelings

Well, you haven't met @Vort yet, have you? 

[Vort]

1 minute ago, MormonGator said:

Well, you haven't met @Vort yet, have you? 

[Lostboy289]

7 minutes ago, zil said:

And I will reiterate, no one I know, on this forum or otherwise, wants to hurt others' feelings, nor do they think it's OK for people to behave with complete indifference toward others' feelings.  But that's not the same as never doing anything that might hurt another's feelings.

Well everyone here seems to be a pretty big advocate for the former. Or at the very least see it as an acceptable consequence of gaining that which you desire.

There is a huge difference between accidentally hurting someone while going through your life (and being given the chance to make it right) and going into a situation knowing you are going to hurt a friend, and pressing ahead with it anyways.

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Jesus thought that the greatest sin was hurting someone else's feelings?

28Now one of the scribes had come up and heard their debate. Noticing how well Jesus had answered them, he asked Him, “Which commandment is the most important of all?”

29Jesus replied, “This is the most important: ‘Hear O Israel, the Lord our God is One Lord,

30and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.

31The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ No other commandment is greater than these.”

 

 

 

Making a pass at your friend's girlfriend or fiancé, or running off with her and leaving your friend in the dust is pretty clearly a violation off that.

Edited April 19, 2017 by Lostboy289

[Guest MormonGator]

4 minutes ago, Lostboy289 said:

Well everyone here seems to be a pretty big advocate for the former. Or at the very least see it as an acceptable consequence of gaining that which you desire.

You aren't totally alone on this my friend. I pretty much agree with a lot what you've said. 

[Backroads]

20 minutes ago, Lostboy289 said:

 

The Lord tells us to be kind, considerate, charitable, and empathetic

 

Not to avoid non-happy feelings at all costs.

[Lostboy289]

7 minutes ago, Backroads said:

Not to avoid non-happy feelings at all costs.

No, but how are those being demonstrated when you see the suffering you cause your brother as an acceptable cost for a relationship with a specific woman?

 

8 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

You aren't totally alone on this my friend. I pretty much agree with a lot what you've said. 

Fair point. Thank you.

 

18 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Wait. You didn't think I meant you...did you?

You didn't?

Edited April 19, 2017 by Lostboy289

[Vort]

11 minutes ago, Lostboy289 said:

The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ No other commandment is greater than these.”

I love my children, but I do not hesitate to hurt their feelings when it's necessary. Loving my neighbor != avoiding hurting their feelings at all costs.

11 minutes ago, Lostboy289 said:

Making a pass at your friend's girlfriend or fiancé, or running off with her and leaving your friend in the dust is pretty clearly a violation off that.

Nope. I disagree.

[Lostboy289]

So where is the love in this? You hurt your children's feelings when necessary because it is ultimately for the benefit of their well being. Although even in that case it  can be taken to unrealistic extremes when the suffering you impose is greater than the lesson learned.

Who is benefiting when you run of with your friend's girlfriend. Him, or mostly just you?

Edited April 19, 2017 by Lostboy289

[Vort]

Just now, Lostboy289 said:

So where is the love in this? You hurt your children's feelings when necessary because it is ultimately for the benefit of their well being. Although even in that case it  can be taken to unrealistic extremes when the suffering you impose is greater than the lesson learned.

Who is benefiting when you run of with your friend's girlfriend. Him, or mostly just you?

The girl.

[Lostboy289]

Couldn't she have found happiness with her original boyfriend if his friend hadn't lured her away?

Or less ideally but still prefferable unrelated fourth party who isn't the guy or his friend?

Edited April 19, 2017 by Lostboy289

[Vort]

2 minutes ago, Lostboy289 said:

Couldn't she have found happiness with her original boyfriend if another man hadn't lured her away?

Nope.

Even if she "could have" in some alternate reality -- so what? An eternal marriage is worth infinitely more than hurt feelings.

But I'm not going to convince you. You already know you're right, and you have the perfect confidence of the True Believer. But don't expect us to join you on your holy crusade, or to see you as anything other than a Quixotic warrior who picked the wrong windmills to tilt at.

[The Folk Prophet]

29 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

Well, you haven't met @Vort yet, have you? 

It hurts my feelings that you used @Vort instead of me for this example.  That wasn't very Christlike of you.

Edited April 19, 2017 by The Folk Prophet

[eddified]

I don't agree with the general idea of there being a soul mate who you must have, and if you don't have that soul mate, you'll be unhappy. However, I do think it is possible for God to tell someone to marry a specific person. I also think it possible for a man & woman to have known each other before this life, and that they may have possibly intended to find each other for marriage after they got to earth -- but at the same time if someone used their agency to change their mind, and not marry their pre-mortal significant other, I believe they can still find happiness, eternal love, and exaltation, through marrying a worthy person.

In other words I reject the idea that you can't find happiness unless you marry one specific person. But I do believe others, without reservation, when they tell me that they felt God told them to marry a specific person.

Edited April 19, 2017 by eddified

[Vort]

1 minute ago, The Folk Prophet said:

It hurts my feelings that you used @Vort instead of me for this example.  That wasn't very Christlike of you.

MG hurt your feelings. He is worse than Hitler.