Busting “The Ghost of Eternal Polygamy”


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Like the the dark of a child's closet, the deep-end of the pool, and the space beneath our beds just big enough for a person to hide, Carol Lynn Pearson's "The Ghost of Eternal Polygamy" (GEP) preys on our innate fear of the unknown. I'm not going to lie and say the idea of eternal polygamy doesn't frighten me. I remember the first time it came up in conversation, driving with my brother and his now fiancée, as he talked about the shortage of worthy men in the Church. "I'll take on another wife if I have to in the celestial kingdom," he said with the dutiful air that typifies his personality as a whole. Unlike my brother, I am not blessed with an unwavering sense of religious duty. So, this led to an argument between us about the sanctity of marriage and, if everyone is going to get to be sealed in heaven... is an earthly sealing even meaningful? My brother held that polygamy is a celestial law, and it would be required of us in...

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Not what I expected. Good for Gabriella Loosie for seeing past Carol Lynn Pearson's rants -- or, at least, good for Sister Loosie for reading Hale's review of Pearson's book and for finding Ulrich's historically based review. Sister Pearson would do well to learn to keep her unfounded speculations and anti-prophetic rants to herself. How her writing is not considered open apostasy I just can't figure out.

There is a certain type of woman in today's Church, not entirely uncommon, tending to be older but found in all age ranges, that takes the historical practice of plural marriage as a personal affront and fights against it with surprising ferocity. I am convinced that some of these women, if told by God himself that polygamy was justified and righteous, would tell God in no uncertain terms that he was wrong.

NEWS FLASH: We don't live polygamy today. If the practice of plural marriage bothers you, then quit thinking about it.

Denying historical revelations because you don't like them is always, 100% of the time, a dangerous practice. Glad to see people like Loosie, who are honest and self-aware enough not to reject Joseph Smith's revelations for reasons of personal taste or convenience.

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Guest LiterateParakeet

Really interesting article. I hadn't heard of either of these books. I want to read the House of Women by Ulrich, and her book about midwives. Several of my ancestors were midwives in that time period.

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2 hours ago, Vort said:

I am convinced that some of these women, if told by God himself that polygamy was justified and righteous, would tell God in no uncertain terms that he was wrong.

As a male it may not be for me to say, but my own gut suggests to me that if God Himself told these women that polygamy was justified and righteous they would accept it. I believe that those who reject polygamy do so because in their hearts and minds they are rejecting men, not God. 

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50 minutes ago, Mike said:

As a male it may not be for me to say, but my own gut suggests to me that if God Himself told these women that polygamy was justified and righteous they would accept it. I believe that those who reject polygamy do so because in their hearts and minds they are rejecting men, not God. 

Unless you're an apostle or the prophet, it pretty much amounts to the same thing.

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7 minutes ago, Mike said:

Perhaps not in the hearts and minds of the people I'm talking about which after all is the point. 

Not sure I follow your point then. You believe that those who rail against prophets and apostles would not rail against God? I do not believe this to be true. If one cannot humble oneself then one cannot humble oneself in either one situation or the other. Pride = pride.

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1 minute ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Not sure I follow your point then. You believe that those who rail against prophets and apostles would not rail against God? I do not believe this to be true. If one cannot humble oneself then one cannot humble oneself in either one situation or the other. Pride = pride.

I don't believe it's necessarily a matter of pride because there are many humble people who cannot accept that the men you (and I) revere are more than mere men. My point is that for thousands of years there have been men who took advantage of women and called it God's will. I can easily believe that there are people who hate polygamy because they see it as just another example. 

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Just now, Mike said:

I don't believe it's necessarily a matter of pride because there are many humble people who cannot accept that the men you (and I) revere are more than mere men. My point is that for thousands of years there have been men who took advantage of women and called it God's will. I can easily believe that there are people who hate polygamy because they see it as just another example. 

So how does God's pattern work in your mind then? Because as I understand it, God reveals His will to the prophets. We get that word from the prophets. God confirms that word is true through the witness of the Holy Ghost.

By what you are saying, it seems, that system breaks down and cannot work if we reject the prophets.

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Guest LiterateParakeet
4 minutes ago, Mike said:

I don't believe it's necessarily a matter of pride because there are many humble people who cannot accept that the men you (and I) revere are more than mere men. My point is that for thousands of years there have been men who took advantage of women and called it God's will. I can easily believe that there are people who hate polygamy because they see it as just another example. 

I get you and I think you right. Even women in the church frequently struggle with polygamy. For those outside the church, phew... just as you said. 

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Just now, The Folk Prophet said:

So how does God's pattern work in your mind then? Because as I understand it, God reveals His will to the prophets. We get that word from the prophets. God confirms that word is true through the witness of the Holy Ghost.

By what you are saying, it seems, that system breaks down and cannot work if we reject the prophets.

And to me your conclusion is a non sequitur in that just because you believe God reveals His will to (Mormon) prophets doesn't mean that everyone else believes it. It doesn't mean the system breaks down, as you put it. It means that billions of people believe differently than you believe. 

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I never really understood what the hubub was about.  My wife says she doesn't care.  That's good enough for me.  I know she loves me.  And she knows I love her.  Why the big deal?  Why do people even care enough to write a book about it?

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1 minute ago, Mike said:

And to me your conclusion is a non sequitur in that just because you believe God reveals His will to (Mormon) prophets doesn't mean that everyone else believes it. It doesn't mean the system breaks down, as you put it. It means that billions of people believe differently than you believe. 

Woah...speaking of non-sequitur....we're not talking about Catholics here. We're talking about supposedly believing Mormons who believe in prophets and personal revelation and confirmation by the Holy Ghost that are rejecting a philosophy they don't like regardless of what prophets have taught. They are rejecting scripture they supposedly believe in given by said prophets.

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Just now, The Folk Prophet said:

Woah...speaking of non-sequitur....we're not talking about Catholics here. We're talking about supposedly believing Mormons who believe in prophets and personal revelation and confirmation by the Holy Ghost that are rejecting a philosophy they don't like regardless of what prophets have taught. They are rejecting scripture they supposedly believe in given by said prophets.

Maybe the people you call believing Mormons are different than you, too. 

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1 minute ago, The Folk Prophet said:

I'm confused by your defensive stance.

My defensive stance? Then, I'm confused that you would say that. I would feel the need to take a defensive stance, if I thought you were attacking me personally. I don't think that. So I'm not taking a defensive stance. 

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24 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

I never really understood what the hubub was about.  My wife says she doesn't care.  That's good enough for me.  I know she loves me.  And she knows I love her.  Why the big deal?  Why do people even care enough to write a book about it?

Your wife's attitude is probably a good example. It seems like a positive application of what I understood @Vort to have said earlier (albeit modified to fit other situations). That is if it (meaning just about anything) bother's one, quit thinking about it. :)  On the other hand, if everybody quit thinking about things that bother them, there would be a lot fewer books to read. :D

 

 

Edited by Mike
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15 minutes ago, Mike said:

My defensive stance? Then, I'm confused that you would say that. I would feel the need to take a defensive stance, if I thought you were attacking me personally. I don't think that. So I'm not taking a defensive stance. 

This statement strikes me as if you are simply annoyed with me:

21 minutes ago, Mike said:

 If you can't or won't see that maybe it only means that  you and I think differently, too. 

 

It seems to me that you're not actually trying to communicate with me. You're putting the issue into terms as if it's all about my competency or attitude. I either "can't" or "won't" see it? I think that sort of response could be valid if we had discussed this for a while and were still at an impasse. As it is, you seem to be jumping to that before either of us really understand what the other is saying. That seems defensive. I generally expect there would be more question asking and discussion on the matter before you so adamantly declared me stupid or stubborn.

Of course God himself explains his pattern just the way I have. He speaks to us through prophets. He declares this many, many times in scriptures and otherwise. So I'm asking you how it works out that those who reject prophets (men) because of whatever reason -- a method given by God himself as to how we are to get truth into our lives -- leads you to believe that those people rejecting the very means God gave them to receive truth, would somehow accept if through another means. But you just keep doubling down on the fact that not everyone sees things the same way. Okay. Agreed. Does that render truth relative? Is the fact that some don't understand mean they're right? You're responding like I'm claiming that anyone who doesn't have the truth is prideful. Of course that is not what I've said at all. I'm simply wondering how you think that those who stand up stubbornly against prophets can be seen as humble. Are they? Is there any scriptural example of this being the case? I'm honestly asking you to expound on the idea in a way that validates it beyond "Everybody believes differently", which although true doesn't really justify the idea that everyone's different beliefs all qualify as humble.

Edited by The Folk Prophet
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1 minute ago, Mike said:

... It seems like a positive application of what I understood @Vort to have said earlier (albeit modified to fit other situations)...

Well, Vort and I think alike, at least most of the time.  Well, a lot of the time.  I mean sort of.  I mean some of the time.  OK, OK.  It's a rare thing that he and I can agree on anything.  I'm just trying to ride his coattails. 

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Guest LiterateParakeet
5 minutes ago, Mike said:

Your wife's attitude is probably a good example. It seems like a positive application of what I understood @Vort to have said earlier (albeit modified to fit other situations). That is if it (meaning just about anything) bother's one, quit thinking about it. :)  On the other hand, if everybody quit thinking about things that bother them, there would be a lot fewer books to read. :D

 

 

Less books, LOL!

@Carborendum there could be many reasons that women and some.men have an issue with it. It may have something to do with their childhood. Wendy Ulrich, an LDS psychologist and author talked about a related principle in a talk once. Basically about childhood experiences color the way we view the world, relationships and even God. I think that may have application here as well.

For example, say a girl.is in a large family and often feels overlooked, or.left out. (It doesn't matter if it is true, her perception is reality to her.) As an adult, the idea of polygamy might being up fears of being lost in the crowd...even if she is not.consciously aware of wjere the insecurity is coming from. 

I can think of other reasons as well.  Its complicated.  

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27 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

This statement strikes me as if you are simply annoyed with me:

It seems to me that you're not actually trying to communicate with me. You're putting the issue into terms as if it's all about my competency or attitude. I either "can't" or "won't" see it? I think that sort of response could be valid if we had discussed this for a while and were still at an impasse. As it is, you seem to be jumping to that before either of us really understand what the other is saying. That seems defensive. I generally expect there would be more question asking and discussion on the matter before you so adamantly declared me stupid or stubborn.

Of course God himself explains his pattern just the way I have. He speaks to us through prophets. He declares this many, many times in scriptures and otherwise. So I'm asking you how it works out that those who reject prophets (men) because of whatever reason -- a method given by God himself as to how we are to get truth into our lives -- leads you to believe that those people rejecting the very means God gave them to receive truth, would somehow accept if through another means. But you just keep doubling down on the fact that not everyone sees things the same way. Okay. Agreed. Does that render truth relative? Is the fact that some don't understand mean they're right? You're responding like I'm claiming that anyone who doesn't have the truth is prideful. Of course that is not what I've said at all. I'm simply wondering how you think that those who stand up stubbornly against prophets can be seen as humble. Are they? Is there any scriptural example of this being the case? I'm honestly asking you to expound on the idea in a way that validates it beyond "Everybody believes differently", which although true doesn't really justify the idea that everyone's different beliefs all qualify as humble.

This is definitely evidence that we think differently from one another. But that can be a good thing. So, I'll try harder to communicate with you--it really would be a nice thing. Accept my good will: I don't think you are stupid. 

However, I do feel we are at something of an impasse and I can only speculate why that may be so. In my experience it could range on a spectrum from our different world views based upon our upbringing, our relationships, any many other variations in what we've observed during our lives. Let's start here and see how we do at communicating. 

Quote

But you just keep doubling down on the fact that not everyone sees things the same way. Okay. Agreed. Does that render truth relative? Is the fact that some don't understand mean they're right?

No, the fact that not everyone sees things the same way does *not* render truth relative. Neither does it mean that some who don't understand are (necessarily) right. But just as it is valuable for you and I to understand one another, it's also valuable for us to understand why people who hate polygamy may feel the way they feel. Do you agree with me that it is valuable?

Edited by Mike
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11 minutes ago, LiterateParakeet said:

Less books, LOL!

@Carborendum there could be many reasons that women and some.men have an issue with it. It may have something to do with their childhood. Wendy Ulrich, an LDS psychologist and author talked about a related principle in a talk once. Basically about childhood experiences color the way we view the world, relationships and even God. I think that may have application here as well.

For example, say a girl.is in a large family and often feels overlooked, or.left out. (It doesn't matter if it is true, her perception is reality to her.) As an adult, the idea of polygamy might being up fears of being lost in the crowd...even if she is not.consciously aware of wjere the insecurity is coming from. 

I can think of other reasons as well.  Its complicated.  

I can think of a very straightforward reason that people would have issues with polygamy. One need only consider Warren Jeffs.

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