Church dropping Scouting program


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12 minutes ago, NightSG said:

Ah yes, because they're not isolated enough as it is.  Maybe we could also build bunkhouses behind all the meetinghouses and simply not let them leave the grounds until they're 18.

In my experience kids in public school are generally as isolated or integrated as they choose to be, regardless of extracurriculars.

But at any rate, I'm not saying it's necessarily the right thing to do.  I'm saying that for varsity/venturing to function effectively, the Church (viz. Salt Lake) needed to make it a priority; and apparently Salt Lake elected not to do so.

Edited by Just_A_Guy
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12 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

I have 2 boys who you can dump in the woods and survive a zombie apocalypse.  But, is that typical of today's American 14-year-old?  NO.  The issue is not because being able to survive a zombie apocalypse at 14 is only possible for Doogie Howser.  The issue is because WE ARE NOT TEACHING OUR BOYS PROPERLY.

And by the way... what matters most to survival is not necessarily that you can remember how to tie every knot you've learned in your Merit Badge.   What matters most to survival is GRIT.  The strength of character to take charge and not sink into helplessness when the going gets rough.

And, let it be noted:  the advancement program imposed on us by BSA National, no longer requires the boys to have a lot of these skills.  Cripes, these clowns on the National Board come down with a case of the vapors at the thought of Cub scouts shooting water guns at each other.

So yesh, yesh, Scouting isn't what it used to be; cluck cluck and gnashing of teeth.  But BSA's shortcomings can't really be chalked up to the influence of modern meterosexual Mormon males.  There has been a cultural shift with the BSA itself which limits its utility to today's Church.

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11 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

And, let it be noted:  the advancement program imposed on us by BSA National, no longer requires the boys to have a lot of these skills.  Cripes, these clowns on the National Board come down with a case of the vapors at the thought of Cub scouts shooting water guns at each other.

So yesh, yesh, Scouting isn't what it used to be; cluck cluck and gnashing of teeth.  But BSA's shortcomings can't really be chalked up to the influence of modern meterosexual Mormon males.  There has been a cultural shift with the BSA itself which limits its utility to today's Church.

And GOOD RIDDANCE it would be when we finally get out of BSA.  My only hope and prayer is that the new Church program (which I would expect to be a worldwide program and not just an America program) will have a lot of teaching on making Men out of Boys in the mortal world and not just the eternal future.  The world needs spiritually upright and moral boys with natural world skills to provide for their families.  When the Men are strong in masculinity, the Women become strong in femininity, especially, Motherhood.  We should strive to have a situation where women won't HAVE to leave home to provide for their families except for extreme circumstances.  This kind of thinking is now considered "radical".  We need to bring it back to "normal".

I'm teaching Bear Scouts Super Science this month.  I can teach Super Science just as well without needing an "adventure belt loop" to go with it.

 

Edited by anatess2
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46 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

In my experience kids in public school are generally as isolated or integrated as they choose to be, regardless of extracurriculars.

But what better way could there be to look even more like a cult than to add another layer of weirdness like "they don't let their kids play sports?"

 

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8 minutes ago, NightSG said:

But what better way could there be to look even more like a cult than to add another layer of weirdness like "they don't let their kids play sports?"

Touché.  The Church has decided that the sacrifices necessary to run a quality Church-wide Varsity/Venturing program just aren't worth it--whether for the PR hit, or for other reasons.

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3 minutes ago, NightSG said:

But what better way could there be to look even more like a cult than to add another layer of weirdness like "they don't let their kids play sports?"

 

But that is the point... outside of the LDS world if a kid wants to be in sports then he is in sports, if a kid wants to be active in the BSA he is active in the BSA... If the kid wants to to both... well then he has some hard choices to make on where he is going to focus his time.

In the LDS world if a kid wants to be in sports OK, but people like @JohnsonJones then rip into you because you did not fully support the LDS BSA scouting effort that your kid had no interest in.  Either the parents have to schedule the kid for every second of his life to meet all the expectations (which is not good) or something drops..

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18 hours ago, Backroads said:

Totally off-topic on Scouting, but there is currently a discussion on one of my teacher forums where a crazed parent is trying to get a teacher (3rd grade, I believe) to purchase graduation trophies for every kid in the class, plus the asking teacher (kinder) to purchase graduation gowns and caps for all of them.

Because every kid literally deserves a graduation and a trophy.

 I don't think participation trophies are going to cause the end of civilization, mass anarchy, and the decline and fall of the west-but they are sort of annoying. I blame the parents, not the kids. 

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1 hour ago, anatess2 said:

And by the way... what matters most to survival is not necessarily that you can remember how to tie every knot you've learned in your Merit Badge.   What matters most to survival is GRIT.  The strength of character to take charge and not sink into helplessness when the going gets rough.

And real strength of character is developed through skill proved in hardship, not through having Scoutmaster Dad sign off on stuff undone because it's too inconvenient.

When they end up in that bad situation and find that they can't do something critical because they didn't really learn that skill, it will break even the best character in time.  I'd recommend watching http://www.history.com/shows/alone  These people are all trained in survival, and yet the most common factor in quitting is simply losing the will to continue to face the challenge.  A few were injured to the point where they did need to leave, some made stupid mistakes (don't put on all your warm clothes to go screw around by or in the water in winter) and realized they were pushing it too hard by staying, but by and large, they made one or two minor mistakes (losing the ferrocerium rod) and went immediately to "I can't do this anymore" mode.  First season, six of the ten didn't make it past day 8 and the winner was declared on day 56; not even two months in spite of each having a backpack full of gear to start with.  Season two made it past the two month mark at 66 days, and the third season almost to 3 months, with the last challenger being pulled on a medical review at day 87.  

The guy who got dunked with all his warm clothes would have been better served by stripping down (they run their own cameras, so he could have only done face shots for that time or just let the production crew blur as needed later) before testing a boat, but after the fact there really wasn't much of a choice; drying enough to allow him to work more than a few yards from his fire could take days in that environment, and I doubt he had enough food stored up for that.  The one who lost his ferro rod could have stored embers from the fire he already had or used another firestarting method.  The injuries were mostly the sort of dumb mistakes you could see coming, but that we all make when stressed.  Still, what a lot of them show are people who are way too used to knowing they can pack up and walk to the car at any time, and be in a motel before nightfall.  No matter what skills they actually have, they've never put them to a real test where they build the real confidence to be comfortable when completely dependent on them.  Instead, you see 2-4 weeks of "I got this" bravado more to convince themselves than the viewers, then a steady decline to "I don't got this, I'm going home."  The winners each season have gone in with an attitude of "I just want to see how well I do" and stayed relatively calm, cheerful and easygoing throughout their time in the woods.

11 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

The Boy Scouts now require the Scout to get to first class at least 10 outings with their patrol and at least 6 campouts with their troop.

The LDS church ONLY allows boys 3 official campouts for 11 year old scouts.  Yes...that is a discrepancy between what the LDS church allows and what the BSA requires.

Whether by policy or by any other means, the end result is that requirements get quietly skipped over.

However, for a properly motivated boy (or in the LDS church for Mormon Eagles where the boys are NOT required to be motivated and instead it is the LEADERS teaching all the merit badges or getting the merit badge counselors instead of how the boys are supposed to go out and get them and utilize the counselors showing a degree of responsibility and determination on the boys part),

And there's another failing in splitting things out by age; at least half of the merit badges I earned were taught by the older Scouts.  I don't remember if they could actually sign off or not, but they could certainly teach and supervise the requirements.  They learned greater responsibility, and cemented their own skills.  (The best way to truly learn a skill is to teach it to someone else.)

Scouting isn't meant to be a race to Eagle; it's a journey, and rushing through any journey means you don't get to see all the sights along the way.  

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57 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

And these days, if you want to be considered "cult-like", you could do worse than dropping a kid in the woods for 36 hours with nothing more than a knife and the stuff in his pockets. :P

Around here, we call that "getting ready for hunting season."  Get all the other skills solid before you add in a high powered rifle.

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1 hour ago, estradling75 said:

But that is the point... outside of the LDS world if a kid wants to be in sports then he is in sports, if a kid wants to be active in the BSA he is active in the BSA... If the kid wants to to both... well then he has some hard choices to make on where he is going to focus his time.

In the LDS world if a kid wants to be in sports OK, but people like @JohnsonJones then rip into you because you did not fully support the LDS BSA scouting effort that your kid had no interest in.  Either the parents have to schedule the kid for every second of his life to meet all the expectations (which is not good) or something drops..

Okay, I understand what you're saying.  BUT... whether it be BSA or not, Youth (and Primary and Adult) Programs WILL still be there.  And yes, if you're going to be a good Priesthood leader, you SHOULD make these programs a priority - both for leaders and for the youth.  It really is no different than telling a kid, sorry buddy, you can't join that soccer club because their practice is held when we do FHE.  Now, as a parent, you can make a command decision on whether you should hold FHE or move FHE to a different day, etc.  Same thing for Ward activities - you can, as a group, decide if you want to accommodate such things.

In my family, the Church's Youth Programs (which currently involves the BSA) is high priority.  Same priority as Seminary.  So, we work our sports and music and any other school stuff around it.  And yes, my nieces and nephews who are in the Catholic Church, and my friends who are Baptists, work their sports around Bible Study.  In my neck of the woods here in Florida, Wednesdays is just culturally Bible Study days.  So schools and sports organizations don't hold practice on Wednesdays because then only half the kids would show up.  So, our Ward hold our Youth and Primary activities on Wednesdays too.

Also, the thing about... my boys are just not interested in Scouts.  To me, this is like... my boys are not interested in boy skills.  It doesn't make sense.  It's not about whether it interests you are not.  It's like Math.  You may not be interested in Math but it's a skill you HAVE to learn to be a productive human being.  So, if you're not enjoying Math, you might need a better Math teacher...

Edited by anatess2
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1 hour ago, Just_A_Guy said:

And, let it be noted:  the advancement program imposed on us by BSA National, no longer requires the boys to have a lot of these skills.  Cripes, these clowns on the National Board come down with a case of the vapors at the thought of Cub scouts shooting water guns at each other.

You know, it's funny how one day the Church has a major influence on BSA, and the next BSA does everything without the Church having any input.

I'd be interested to how many of the restrictions on activities and removals of previously required skills came from, or were at least supported by the Church.

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11 minutes ago, NightSG said:

And real strength of character is developed through skill proved in hardship, not through having Scoutmaster Dad sign off on stuff undone because it's too inconvenient.

<snip because we're obviously talking past each other>

Again... my issue with your statement is in your thinking that if you're a 14-year-old, you have to be Doogie Howser to get an Eagle... which means the proper skills to get an Eagle is not achievable for normal 14-year-olds regardless of how good their scout program is run.  I believe this to be wrong.  In my perspective, a NORMAL 14-year-old have the potential to gain the proper skills to qualify for an Eagle.

Now, if your statement would have been - it should be rare for a 14-year-old to get an Eagle because most Dads today are gundeckers that don't teach their 14-year-olds proper Scouting then I wouldn't have a problem with your statement.

Edited by anatess2
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Just now, anatess2 said:

Okay, I understand what you're saying.  BUT... whether it be BSA or not, Youth (and Primary and Adult) Programs WILL still be there.  And yes, if you're going to be a good Priesthood leader, you SHOULD make these programs a priority - both for leaders and for the youth.  It really is no different than telling a kid, sorry buddy, you can't join that soccer club because their practice is held when we do FHE.  Now, as a parent, you can make a command decision on whether you should hold FHE or move FHE to a different day, etc.  Same thing for Ward activities - you can, as a group, decide if you want to accommodate such things.

In my family, the Church's Youth Programs (which currently involves the BSA) is high priority.  Same priority as Seminary.  So, we work our sports and music and any other school stuff around it.  And yes, my nieces and nephews who are in the Catholic Church, and my friends who are Baptists, work their sports around Bible Study.  In my neck of the woods here in Florida, Wednesdays is just culturally Bible Study days.  So schools and sports organizations don't hold practice on Wednesdays because then only half the kids would show up!

Indeed...  Please note that I was addressing @NightSG comment about looking cultist if we didn't "allow" our kids sports or other extra activities.  Which you might have to do if your priority is the church related activities and your local area always is in a schedule conflict.

 

 

 

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Just now, estradling75 said:

Indeed...  Please note that I was addressing @NightSG comment about looking cultist if we didn't "allow" our kids sports or other extra activities.  Which you might have to do if your priority is the church related activities and your local area always is in a schedule conflict.

 

 

 

Okay, I understand.

By the way, I updated that comment.

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3 hours ago, estradling75 said:

But that is the point... outside of the LDS world if a kid wants to be in sports then he is in sports, if a kid wants to be active in the BSA he is active in the BSA... If the kid wants to to both... well then he has some hard choices to make on where he is going to focus his time.

In the LDS world if a kid wants to be in sports OK, but people like @JohnsonJones then rip into you because you did not fully support the LDS BSA scouting effort that your kid had no interest in.  Either the parents have to schedule the kid for every second of his life to meet all the expectations (which is not good) or something drops..

That shows the same misunderstanding that a LOT of Mormons have regarding Varsity and Venture scouts.  Varsity scouts is actually designed with the team in mind, the leader being a coach.

Venture on the otherhand, not only goes hand in hand with the LDS young men's program (basically, if you DID the young men's program in any way, shape, or fashion, you are doing a lot of the Venture program right there), it also allows for men to incorporate their sports or any other extracurricular activity into the program.

The First award basically is to attend a Priest Quorum activity.  If young men's can't even have a Priest quorum activity, something is seriously wrong with that quorum. 

For the Second award, a focus on getting their Duty to God and the religious requirements as well as attending THREE priest quorum activities. 

If a Young man is soo busy doing sports that he cannot go to church, cannot do the religious requirements (that are STILL IN PLACE with the world wide young men's program that is being used by the LDS church currently, and will remain as the sole Young Men's program after 2018 without the rewards system that the scouting could get), or attend any Wednesday activities...people like me calling you to repentance is the LEAST of your problems in regards to your kid.

The third award, the Young man needs to design his own goal (similar to an Eagle Project, but more personal in advancing) where he shows leadership and responsibility.  This can be with a physical or academic goal.  For example, the goal to become Captain of the Football team or some other focus (if they are TRULY that big into sports) where they exhibit leadership and responsibility in whichever setting they wish.  They also need to participate in actually showing leadership in the Priest quorum by helping plan some Priest Quorum activities.

So...no, sports actually would help them if they are BIG into sports.  The LDS leadership recognized these things in regards to the Priest Quorum and Venture scouts and planned it directly into the program.

As I said before, Mormons do NOT want to listen to the guidance of the LDS church.  So now, the program is actually very similar, but without the rewards system in place that the Venture scouts had for the 16-18 year olds.  The first two Venture awards are so easy that any young man that is going to church should be able to earn them before he turns 18.

After that, they get a little more intense and actually DO rely on a Young man doing extracurricular activities and taking responsibility for his actions as well as a larger participation in the Priest quorum.  I can understand those who didn't get any more than the first two, but the first two Venture awards are almost like participation awards for those who are active in the LDS church.

IRONICALLY, your statement shows a great misunderstanding about what this move does.  The Venture program tried to incorporate the idea that not all young men like to camp or do things like that and would be participating in things like sports, band, or other extracurricular activities in school and allowed them to focus on them and be awarded for doing that in an LDS setting.  Now that Ventures are being cut, the focus will be more the straight up LDS program (which is already there, but no one was following it anyways...generally speaking...they being in favor of strictly following the 12-14 year old program and boy scouts instead of Varsity or Venture), without the boys being able to have extracurricular activities actually being incorporated into the Young Men's program.

Basically, what you stated is the opposite of what is now going to happen because the Saints could not be bothered to listen to the General authorities in the first place and did their own thing.  Unfortunately, I also expect that Members will not get the point and continue to ignore the Church Leadership and our problems with  Young men falling away when they become Young Single Adults may continue.

Edited by JohnsonJones
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4 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

And, let it be noted:  the advancement program imposed on us by BSA National, no longer requires the boys to have a lot of these skills.  Cripes, these clowns on the National Board come down with a case of the vapors at the thought of Cub scouts shooting water guns at each other.

So yesh, yesh, Scouting isn't what it used to be; cluck cluck and gnashing of teeth.  But BSA's shortcomings can't really be chalked up to the influence of modern meterosexual Mormon males.  There has been a cultural shift with the BSA itself which limits its utility to today's Church.

Yes.  I was going to go on a Scout Campout recently and told the Scout master I'd bring a set of my Laser tag system (I have a complete Laser tag system with two groups of six guns each for two teams) which I thought the boys would enjoy.  He informed me that scouts could not point things like that at each other.  I was surprised by that update of a system.

But, the goal of Scouts is still the same.  It is Fun with a purpose.  That purpose (which many think the main leadership at national has forgotten, and I wonder myself at their decisions in this regard) is to teach boys morality, leadership, and responsibility.  That goal is the same, even if the methods have changed somewhat over the years.

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29 minutes ago, JohnsonJones said:

That shows the same misunderstanding that a LOT of Mormons have regarding Varsity and Venture scouts.  Varsity scouts is actually designed with the team in mind, the leader being a coach.

Venture on the otherhand, not only goes hand in hand with the LDS young men's program (basically, if you DID the young men's program in any way, shape, or fashion, you are doing a lot of the Venture program right there), it also allows for men to incorporate their sports or any other extracurricular activity into the program.

The First award basically is to attend a Priest Quorum activity.  If young men's can't even have a Priest quorum activity, something is seriously wrong with that quorum. 

For the Second award, a focus on getting their Duty to God and the religious requirements as well as attending THREE priest quorum activities. 

If a Young man is soo busy doing sports that he cannot go to church, cannot do the religious requirements (that are STILL IN PLACE with the world wide young men's program that is being used by the LDS church currently, and will remain as the sole Young Men's program after 2018 without the rewards system that the scouting could get), or attend any Wednesday activities...people like me calling you to repentance is the LEAST of your problems in regards to your kid.

The third award, the Young man needs to design his own goal (similar to an Eagle Project, but more personal in advancing) where he shows leadership and responsibility.  This can be with a physical or academic goal.  For example, the goal to become Captain of the Football team or some other focus (if they are TRULY that big into sports) where they exhibit leadership and responsibility in whichever setting they wish.  They also need to participate in actually showing leadership in the Priest quorum by helping plan some Priest Quorum activities.

So...no, sports actually would help them if they are BIG into sports.  The LDS leadership recognized these things in regards to the Priest Quorum and Venture scouts and planned it directly into the program.

As I said before, Mormons do NOT want to listen to the guidance of the LDS church.  So now, the program is actually very similar, but without the rewards system in place that the Venture scouts had for the 16-18 year olds.  The first two Venture awards are so easy that any young man that is going to church should be able to earn them before he turns 18.

After that, they get a little more intense and actually DO rely on a Young man doing extracurricular activities and taking responsibility for his actions as well as a larger participation in the Priest quorum.  I can understand those who didn't get any more than the first two, but the first two Venture awards are almost like participation awards for those who are active in the LDS church.

IRONICALLY, your statement shows a great misunderstanding about what this move does.  The Venture program tried to incorporate the idea that not all young men like to camp or do things like that and would be participating in things like sports, band, or other extracurricular activities in school and allowed them to focus on them and be awarded for doing that in an LDS setting.  Now that Ventures are being cut, the focus will be more the straight up LDS program (which is already there, but no one was following it anyways...generally speaking...they being in favor of strictly following the 12-14 year old program and boy scouts instead of Varsity or Venture), without the boys being able to have extracurricular activities actually being incorporated into the Young Men's program.

Basically, what you stated is the opposite of what is now going to happen because the Saints could not be bothered to listen to the General authorities in the first place and did their own thing.  Unfortunately, I also expect that Members will not get the point and continue to ignore the Church Leadership and our problems with  Young men falling away when they become Young Single Adults may continue.

No I think you are missing the point..  Young men usually take Sundays, an evening during the week and a weekend during the month for camping or what not.

That really doesn't seem like a lot, but then you realize they are part of a family, and that family has claim on the Young man as well... an evening during the week, and hopefully a weekend together as well.  Then maybe the young man wants to be on a team sport or something (foot ball, track, swimming debate club whatever) minimum would be one night a week, but if they are competing a couple nights are common and if they are competing you lose another weekend or more.

Plus time to do homework and school projects and whatnot.

Now just running the numbers it looks do-able... if you have control over the nights things happen.  But the Young Man does not.. the parents rarely do.  So what happens when the team sport (or whatever) meets the same night as young men?  Or a competition the weekend of a campout?  If you are very luckily you might be able to might be able to get an adjustment.  Most likely you will not be able to.  Because it is not fair to the other members of the team (and its leaders) and to the other young men (and its leaders) to upending everything to accommodate you.

And if there is a conflict then a choice has to be made.  While we can talk all we want about it being a priority, we know the team or club (or whatever) is of great interest to the kid or they would not be part of it.  Young men's activities we can hope are of equal interest.  But since the not all Young Men have the same interest not every night can be devoted to the interests of your kid.  And if you are teaching your kid about agency and accountability these are the perfect choices to let them make for themselves.

Funny how because I got the point about educating my kids and teaching my kids how be responsible and make choices from Church Leadership... yet in spite of this you feel entitled to unilaterally render an judgment against me declaring that I am "Ignoring the Church Leadership" all because I don't flog your chosen gospel hobby horse

 

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10 hours ago, Carborendum said:

OK.  You called me a moron -- or less than a moron since I couldn't find it on CNN because of a funky way they have of labeling the headlines on their search bar. 

And when I simply ask for a source you believe I'm calling you a liar?  You need to lighten up.

1- I guess in a roundabout sortaway I called you a Moron. I apologize as I clearly was mistaken. Since I am one to always help others, I'll show you how I so quickly found the cnn articles:
 

Go to "Google" and type "bsa gay leader vote" and hit ENTER

Here is what you get:  https://www.google.com/#q=bsa+gay+leader+vote&spf=1495236881821

GOOGLE is your friend.

2- "and when I simply ask for a source you believe I'm calling you a liar? You need to lighten up?"

Heres how you asked:

"Where did you get the bolded part above?  Your comment that it was no secret to anyone is unfounded.  Don't make a statement like that and expect it not to get challenged.  If you can show a source, then fine, I'll apologize. "

Sounds like ur calling me a liar and you are not simply asking for a source.

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28 minutes ago, paracaidista508 said:

1- I guess in a roundabout sortaway I called you a Moron. I apologize as I clearly was mistaken. Since I am one to always help others, I'll show you how I so quickly found the cnn articles:
 

Go to "Google" and type "bsa gay leader vote" and hit ENTER

Here is what you get:  https://www.google.com/#q=bsa+gay+leader+vote&spf=1495236881821

GOOGLE is your friend.

Apparently you don't know yet that google will not give the same results even though two people use the same terms.  Google use your location, search history, and browsing history to alter what you see as compared to what anyone else sees.

If it's so easy to find the CNN article to which you're referring, would it kill you to go back to it yourself and copy the URL?  (IMO, this is the same attitude as expecting the moderators to (a) read all your posts and act on the words in them, and (b) go back and find some post to which you are referring when the fact that you're referring to it implies that you know which post it is, so again, it would kill you to just go back to it and click the "report" link?)

If you'd take the time to get familiar with @Carborendum through his posts, I think you'd find yourself fairly confident of his google-fu, and recognize that if he's having a hard time finding what you found, it's got more to do with google than with him.  You'd also become familiar with his style of communicating and recognize that yeah, he's just asking for a link to your source.

Edited by zil
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Person 1: Your sister is pregnant. Everyone know it.

Person 2: Where did you hear that?

Person 1: Stop calling me a liar, moron! 

Everyone: (thinking) yikes... what was that? 

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1 hour ago, zil said:

Apparently you don't know yet that google will not give the same results even though two people use the same terms.  Google use your location, search history, and browsing history to alter what you see as compared to what anyone else sees.
*** Not my problem. Wasnt that hard to find. If one seems to think it is unfounded (AKA not true) then perhaps before firing off a demand for proof of the truth they may want to check for themselves. Besides, I gave him the exact dates of the votes so that should have turned on  bulb that just maybe I already had that info handy.

If it's so easy to find the CNN article to which you're referring, would it kill you to go back to it yourself and copy the URL?  (IMO, this is the same attitude as expecting the moderators to (a) read all your posts and act on the words in them, and (b) go back and find some post to which you are referring when the fact that you're referring to it implies that you know which post it is, so again, it would kill you to just go back to it and click the "report" link?)

*** I did when I responded to him. Direct links to both articles. Go back and look yourself, they are there. 

If you'd take the time to get familiar with @Carborendum through his posts, I think you'd find yourself fairly confident of his google-fu, and recognize that if he's having a hard time finding what you found, it's got more to do with google than with him.  You'd also become familiar with his style of communicating and recognize that yeah, he's just asking for a link to your source.

** The burden is on me to review and ponder his complete posting history so i can divine what he is actually saying? BTW, he didnt say he couldn't find the reference until after he announced I had posted unfounded information. It would have been a much different scenario. 

 

Edited by paracaidista508
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9 hours ago, estradling75 said:

No I think you are missing the point..  Young men usually take Sundays, an evening during the week and a weekend during the month for camping or what not.

That really doesn't seem like a lot, but then you realize they are part of a family, and that family has claim on the Young man as well... an evening during the week, and hopefully a weekend together as well.  Then maybe the young man wants to be on a team sport or something (foot ball, track, swimming debate club whatever) minimum would be one night a week, but if they are competing a couple nights are common and if they are competing you lose another weekend or more.

Plus time to do homework and school projects and whatnot.

Now just running the numbers it looks do-able... if you have control over the nights things happen.  But the Young Man does not.. the parents rarely do.  So what happens when the team sport (or whatever) meets the same night as young men?  Or a competition the weekend of a campout?  If you are very luckily you might be able to might be able to get an adjustment.  Most likely you will not be able to.  Because it is not fair to the other members of the team (and its leaders) and to the other young men (and its leaders) to upending everything to accommodate you.

And if there is a conflict then a choice has to be made.  While we can talk all we want about it being a priority, we know the team or club (or whatever) is of great interest to the kid or they would not be part of it.  Young men's activities we can hope are of equal interest.  But since the not all Young Men have the same interest not every night can be devoted to the interests of your kid.  And if you are teaching your kid about agency and accountability these are the perfect choices to let them make for themselves.

Funny how because I got the point about educating my kids and teaching my kids how be responsible and make choices from Church Leadership... yet in spite of this you feel entitled to unilaterally render an judgment against me declaring that I am "Ignoring the Church Leadership" all because I don't flog your chosen gospel hobby horse

 

Camping?  Camping in not integral in the Venture program.

I do not think you know what you are talking about here.

Camping is an INTEGRAL part of the Boy Scouts program, the program designed for the 12-14 year olds.  The LDS church is KEEPING that program.

The Venture program is DIFFERENT and has been ignored mostly by Mormons.  Many times they continue the 12-14 year old program far into the 14+ ages, but it is still the Boy Scouts and NOT the Venturing program.

I already told you the requirements for the first three badges of the Venture program.  It integrates a boys choice of what he wants to focus on.  He has a choice of religious, physical, or mental focuses.  The church program focuses on the Religious and Duty to God in regards to the Venture program.  If a boy is active in his priest quorum, and participates in the Church's Young Men's program as he should, he will basically earn the first two badges of the Venture program without any trouble.

The third can be chosen by that young men to be integrated in with his sports, or whatever extracurricular program I mentioned.

The Boy Scout program was designed by the Boy Scouts and Mormons have overwhelmingly supported that program.

Varsity and Venture Scouts were designed by the General Authorities in conjunction with the BSA to be programs that would work with their older boys in Young Men as the BSA program didn't seem to work that well with them as they got older.  It is a DIFFERENT thing. Ironically, Mormons have overwhelmingly IGNORED those programs.

In Venture scouts, IF a boy chooses to do a physical focus and it is NOT sports or some other item in that category, they DO have the option if they want something a little more structured of going after the Ranger Badge and having that in Lieu of a sports program or other such thing.  This badge is NOT a requisite badge of the Venture program, but allows boys that are interested in the outdoors to focus more on the outdoor adventures...IF they so desire.

Otherwise, there is NOTHING in the Venture program that is written out in the way BSA does that has anything to do with camping as it differs greatly from the Boy Scouts program.

There are activities which are OPTIONAL and are in no way a requirement for advancement as a Venture Scout that Venture scouts can participate in and can use as part of their goals in earning their badges if they wish (for example, there's a thing called Kodiak challenge, an outdoor event far more intense than Boy Scout Camp), but each 16-18 year old in the LDS church can tailor the Venture program to what works best in their lives.  That INCLUDES sports, or whatever other extracurricular activities they have.

The ONLY priority that is there, is the SAME priority Mormons will have with the new program, and that is whether they support their boys in religious activities and participation in Young Men's or not.  That HAS NOT changed, nor will it.  The only difference is, where, before, sports and extracurricular activities were actually pretty vital elements of integrating a Young Man's school and outside church life with LDS church teachings, that is NO LONGER going to be a part of it in regards to the Venture program as this is being dropped.

If you have problems because you feel a young man cannot do sports and other extracurricular activities and also participate in the LDS church Young Men's program, that is NOT going to miraculously change simply because Venturing is no longer part of that LDS program.  The LDS Young Men's program will STILL be there, and the same problems people had with Venture scouts will still be there with the Young Men's program.

It sounds to me the problem for you isn't with Venture scouts (as you don't even seem to understand what Venturing is or what it does), but with the Young Men's program in general.  That program, the Young Men's program, is STILL going to be there, whether or not you choose to have your sons participate in it or not.

Edited by JohnsonJones
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10 hours ago, estradling75 said:

Now just running the numbers it looks do-able... if you have control over the nights things happen.  But the Young Man does not.. the parents rarely do.  So what happens when the team sport (or whatever) meets the same night as young men?  Or a competition the weekend of a campout?  If you are very luckily you might be able to might be able to get an adjustment.  Most likely you will not be able to.  Because it is not fair to the other members of the team (and its leaders) and to the other young men (and its leaders) to upending everything to accommodate you.

And if there is a conflict then a choice has to be made.  While we can talk all we want about it being a priority, we know the team or club (or whatever) is of great interest to the kid or they would not be part of it.  Young men's activities we can hope are of equal interest.  But since the not all Young Men have the same interest not every night can be devoted to the interests of your kid.  And if you are teaching your kid about agency and accountability these are the perfect choices to let them make for themselves.

Funny how because I got the point about educating my kids and teaching my kids how be responsible and make choices from Church Leadership... yet in spite of this you feel entitled to unilaterally render an judgment against me declaring that I am "Ignoring the Church Leadership" all because I don't flog your chosen gospel hobby horse

 

Now this is a separate issue, so I'm making a separate post.  If your Young Men's leader feels camping every weekend is something they need to do, that is their prerogative.  However, this isn't addressing this, it is addressing the Young men's issue.  I'll relate from many years ago when I was a Young Man.

Though the programs have changed since I was a kid, I went to state in several sports, was noted in stringed instruments, supported my teams and orchestra, was also in the Latin Club and Chess team as well as fencing, and still was an active participant in the Young Men's program. 

I do not know your circumstances, but I know I was a very busy guy as a young man, more than MOST who try to claim that they are so busy with sports that they can not do Young Men's.  It boils down to what the youth and their parents feel is important.  If one feels Young Men's is important, they will DO Young Men's.  If they do not...they won't.  I did football, soccer and track, and yes, there were some times meets were on Wednesday nights (the evening our ward did Young Men's when I was growing up), but it wasn't always.  Football was only 10 games a season at the time (so EVERY Friday night during that time), but it wasn't year round. 

I don't know you or your son's situation.  I know in general (not you specifically, I've been normally talking in general, instead of specifics because I do not know YOUR situation or specific situations as they differ from each other...and who knows, maybe there is an exception) MORMONS USE THESE EXCUSES and they are just that...excuses...of why they cannot be a part of the Young Men's program...and many other things.  Why they cannot go to the temple, why they cannot clean the church, why they cannot go to sunday school, relief society, or why they cannot even attend church.  Most of it is simply due to their own choice.

You are absolutely correct in it is what we place as a priority in life.  When I was a Young man I supported my sports teams.  I went to practice and I went to meets and games.  I was extremely busy.   However, it was also a priority to be a 4 year seminary graduate (and with how late meets and practices sometimes went and me going to early Morning seminary, sometimes I question how smart a goal that was as I slept through a LOT of it, but I DID accomplish that goal), it was a priority to participate in Young Mens (and if there was a Venture program back then, which there wasn't, I would have been participating in it I believe), and it was a priority to participate in the church in general. 

Those priority's still are part of my life today.  What we make as a priority in our early years, normally become what we have as a priority later in life.  We can change, but many do not.  Many do NOT put a priority in the Young Men's and Young Woman's programs these days, and we see how that reflects our inactives and actives among Young Single Adults later.  I am not really accusing you of anything (except maybe gross misunderstanding of the Venture program), as I do not know your situation.  But I DO know about the situation regarding the Young Single Adults in the LDS church in general right now, and what the probable causes are, and the situation is pretty darn grim.

I do hear that we are doing better than many OTHER religions and churches currently in retaining our youth to young single adults...but at the same time that isn't so much encouraging, as simply realizing how bad it is for other religions if their retention rates are worse then ours.

Edited by JohnsonJones
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