JohnsonJones

So, I was told that people need to ask my permission to do my family temple work...

Recommended Posts

In another thread recently I was told that other people need to ask me to do my family temple work.

Unfortunately, for my personal line, someone else unrelated to us did ALL our temple work already.  There is none left for the family.

Of note, my grandparents were born in the 1800s.  My parents are still alive, but they were younger ones in their families (for example, my mother's brothers were old enough to be her father).  My mother was the youngest on her side, and my father has several older than him.  Temple work has been done for these people without our permission for any who were born prior to 1905.  They weren't even done by family members.

Luckily, my wife's family has genealogy that is still able to be done (mine is somewhat of a dead end right now, with no idea how to get past the block).  I haven't been the most speedy on it, as we had a ton of names that I've slowly been going through.  I have around 5 names left, but was told by the temple recently I have to get them done within the next 2 months or others will do them.

These names are also from the mid-1800s.  They are the personal family names for my wife's side (actually more specifically, my brother in law who has a huge non-member family genealogy apparently).  I know what their statements would be in regards to people asking permission since I have the names.

If they need my permission (or more specifically, my brother in law's permission who would leave it with me, especially since I'm so close to finishing the names up), why did the temple say I only have like 2 more months to finish the work?

 

PS: So the temple work was started, we did a TON of Baptisms for the dead almost a year ago.  I've slowly been working my way through the names till only five are left.  At about one a month at the temple, that means I won't have them all done by the year mark when the temple patrons said they had to be done or I'd lose any rights to do the names, if that helps with the background at all.

Edited by JohnsonJones

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

They only need permission if your ancestor died in the last hundred years. 

Whoever did your family work from the 1800's or so may have been a relative. 

There is a time limit when you reserve a name just so you don't forget and leave that name with the work undone for years. I have my mom's name reserved. When I got short on time, I was able to renew it. 

Your family history work is never done. Consider that all thoae ancestors have children and siblings who they loved and whose work also needs to be done. 

Edited by LiterateParakeet

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, LiterateParakeet said:

They only need permission if your ancestor died in the last hundred years. 

Whoever did your family work from the 1800's or so may have been a relative. 

There is a time limit when you reserve a name just so you don't forget and leave that name with the work undone for years. I have my mom's name reserved. When I got short on time, I was able to renew it. 

Your family history work is never done. Consider that all thoae ancestors have children and siblings who they loved and whose work also needs to be done. 

Unlike some, I come directly from a nobility line.  They are well aware of the LDS tendency and have locked up all records at this point (as far as I know) that are not already known to the public to only the direct family (aka, those currently in rule and their direct children...not even grandchildren, cousins, etc. have access anymore as far as I know).  This means, it is just about impossible to get those records, or at least I have no idea how to obtain them at this point.  The other side has never been done, and it is all in a foreign language which I do not speak.  I know the area they are from, but even if I got the records I wouldn't know what I was looking at. Hence why it's kind of a dead end for me in genealogy right now.

For the work that was done that we didn't do, none of my kids own up to it, and my parents did not do it.  That means someone outside the family did it, and no one beyond those I talked about are members.

On my wife's side, the temple patrons told me for those I have already, the reservations only last for one or two years and then it's open game/season on them for anyone else.  I was not aware that you could renew a name.  They didn't mention it when I was verifying the names I had with me currently were still good.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

For the work that was done that we didn't do, none of my kids own up to it, and my parents did not do it.  That means someone outside the family did it, and no one beyond those I talked about are members.

A lot of people, especially those whose family has been in the church for generations, do descendancy work - they find an ancestor from way back then work forward through their other lines. So they end up doing their first cousins five times removed, then their second cousins four times removed, then their third cousins three times removed, and so on. Are you sure this couldn't be what happened?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 hours ago, SilentOne said:

A lot of people, especially those whose family has been in the church for generations, do descendancy work - they find an ancestor from way back then work forward through their other lines. So they end up doing their first cousins five times removed, then their second cousins four times removed, then their third cousins three times removed, and so on. Are you sure this couldn't be what happened?

I don't know about that, but as far as we know out to several generations (past when the LDS church began) we are the first family in the LDS church.  AS it IS one of the noble families it could be some people wanting to simply do that genealogy without our consent, and as soon as I put something out there, someone wants to snatch it up as soon as they think it is available.  One of the downsides (or one could say upsides) of my genealogy on one of my parent's side of the family.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
On 5/15/2017 at 4:51 PM, JohnsonJones said:

Unlike some, I come directly from a nobility line.  They are well aware of the LDS tendency and have locked up all records at this point (as far as I know) that are not already known to the public to only the direct family (aka, those currently in rule and their direct children...not even grandchildren, cousins, etc. have access anymore as far as I know).  This means, it is just about impossible to get those records, or at least I have no idea how to obtain them at this point.  The other side has never been done, and it is all in a foreign language which I do not speak.  I know the area they are from, but even if I got the records I wouldn't know what I was looking at. Hence why it's kind of a dead end for me in genealogy right now.

What does that have to do with your original question about the Church policy on asking permission?

Edited by Guest

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/15/2017 at 8:46 PM, SilentOne said:

A lot of people, especially those whose family has been in the church for generations, do descendancy work - they find an ancestor from way back then work forward through their other lines. So they end up doing their first cousins five times removed, then their second cousins four times removed, then their third cousins three times removed, and so on. Are you sure this couldn't be what happened?

More likely they were just caught up by one of the people going through reserving and submitting any valid records they can find.  The person who reserved and submitted several on my dad's side, including at least three who died in the last 100 years, had no confirmed link to the family whatsoever.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Carborendum said:

What does that have to do with your original question about the Church policy on asking permission?

Because NO ONE asks permission to do my family genealogy.  My grandfather was the title holder, and so rights would for the closest LDS relatives for the entire family line would be my parents and then I in the LDS church, or one of my uncles or aunts otherwise.  No one has EVER asked us permission to do any of the temple work, denying me and my kids in many instances. 

This was an extension of my original post, explaining why I don't have any genealogy I can do.  Other people feel that they were either obligated or were somehow responsible to do my family genealogy without any of our families permission.  I guess a parallel to help understand, would be if you had children...and they would normally want you to baptize them.

However, someone else comes in and decides to baptize your children without your knowledge, not only preventing you from being involved with your own family, but also upsetting your non-member family as well.  Luckily, your wife's family has kids they would want you to baptize for them, but then you are told if you don't get them baptized pronto, you could lose the chance to do that as well.

In my original post I was explaining the problem in the requests and permissions for my side of the family, I was explaining what some of the problem may be (as a lot of my family line would be public historical knowledge, and many seem to have a fascination with royalty and nobility and sometimes probably do not realize that is actually someone's REAL family, not their playthings to do with as they desire...but I can understand the 100 year thing...but perhaps for us older folks they should give more time.  My grandparents were born in the 1800s and are well beyond the 100 year mark).

I'm trying to figure out the entire timeline thing on how long I have to actually do the temple work (which I think has been answered, basically, I have a year or two IF I put the names into ancestry or family search to do the work.  This is actually pretty important if I ever gain access to the extended genealogy for my family, as it means I have one or two years to do the work before some pirate comes in and steals it and does it for us...though some wouldn't call it that...it's pretty rough to me that I can't enter anything into the system without having someone else decide to do the work if I don't do it immediately).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
54 minutes ago, JohnsonJones said:

In my original post I was explaining the problem in the requests and permissions for my side of the family, I was explaining what some of the problem may be (as a lot of my family line would be public historical knowledge, and many seem to have a fascination with royalty and nobility and sometimes probably do not realize that is actually someone's REAL family, not their playthings to do with as they desire...but I can understand the 100 year thing...but perhaps for us older folks they should give more time.  My grandparents were born in the 1800s and are well beyond the 100 year mark).

Doesn't matter; the only thing keeping anybody from checking the "I have permission" box is personal integrity, and there seem to be a lot of people that think nothing of lying whenever they feel like it, even in matters involving the temple.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
2 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

Because NO ONE asks permission to do my family genealogy.  My grandfather was the title holder, and so rights would for the closest LDS relatives for the entire family line would be my parents and then I in the LDS church, or one of my uncles or aunts otherwise.  No one has EVER asked us permission to do any of the temple work, denying me and my kids in many instances. 

I think someone needs a hug. :grouphug:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest

Maybe your great great great aunt has a grandson who is LDS. Or you have 4th cousin twice removed who is LDS. There is many combination that would make it possible for someone to be LDS on your line. If I go back three generations in my genealogy chart and then tract one of my ancestors descendants I would probably come up with thousands od descendants, I would know maybe about 100 of them but not the rest. These descendants would have the possibility to go to our common ancestor and then look at their descendants and do work for them if they qualify. So they most likely are the ones that did the work.  Even though you come through royalty you don't know everyone on your line, nd chances are someone is LDS and doing the work. Or maybe someone is doing the work without permission, some people do break the rules.

It's disappointing not to do your own ancestors work, but I would let it go and be happy their work is done and concentrate on other work that needs to be done.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/15/2017 at 3:51 PM, JohnsonJones said:

Unlike some, I come directly from a nobility line.  They are well aware of the LDS tendency and have locked up all records at this point (as far as I know) that are not already known to the public to only the direct family (aka, those currently in rule and their direct children...not even grandchildren, cousins, etc. have access anymore as far as I know).  This means, it is just about impossible to get those records, or at least I have no idea how to obtain them at this point.  The other side has never been done, and it is all in a foreign language which I do not speak.  I know the area they are from, but even if I got the records I wouldn't know what I was looking at. Hence why it's kind of a dead end for me in genealogy right now.

For the work that was done that we didn't do, none of my kids own up to it, and my parents did not do it.  That means someone outside the family did it, and no one beyond those I talked about are members.

On my wife's side, the temple patrons told me for those I have already, the reservations only last for one or two years and then it's open game/season on them for anyone else.  I was not aware that you could renew a name.  They didn't mention it when I was verifying the names I had with me currently were still good.

In my own family line, there was a woman who came to the US in the 1600s, last name Knightley.  Family lore has always been that she was from a royal family and her father in every family genealogy I've seen is British royalty,  However, I tried to find record of this connection.  Birth, marriage, wills, deeds, anything, and nothing. I'm convinced someone was overly excited to be descended from royalty and penciled in a Lord with the same last name of Knightley. Thus, the temple work for this extended royal family has been done by my family, and probably a long time ago, as this family lore and most likely bogus connection is in old, Mormon, family records. As early as the late 1800s or early 1900s. All that to say, the case may be the same with your family line.  Someone connected into it and worked their way through every line and name they could find, a long time ago.

Edited by Blueskye2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/15/2017 at 11:50 AM, LiterateParakeet said:

They only need permission if your ancestor died in the last hundred years. 

Whoever did your family work from the 1800's or so may have been a relative. 

There is a time limit when you reserve a name just so you don't forget and leave that name with the work undone for years. I have my mom's name reserved. When I got short on time, I was able to renew it. 

Your family history work is never done. Consider that all thoae ancestors have children and siblings who they loved and whose work also needs to be done. 

110 years from birth anyone can do temple work. Before that only close relatives if they are alive. I had a second cousin who was an only child who died soon after returning from WW2. I was given permission to arrange his temple work. I am his only living relative. The time limit for reserving temple work is two years. If it is not done either you renew your claim on it or it goes back to available.  Too many people reserved individuals and then passed away leaving those people waiting forever.  Temple work is not about YOU it is all about them. Try to remember that. You  are helping them return home. Sealings are only for your own spouse and children. The more distant your ancestor is the more relatives they have and they are entitled to that ancestor as much as you are. I am so far back  on so many I am related to only by marriage. I input all necessary document to qualify them for temple work but leave it alone for at least a year so closer relatives can do their work. When I first began genealogy I found my grandfather's work done by someone I did not know and he was NOT related. Rules have changed due to the victims of the Holocaust being done without permission by a temple in South America. Caused a MAJOR issue with their living relatives who demanded their temple work be undone. How they did that I have no clue. So now there is a warning when you reserve any Holocaust victim that you can not do their work without the permission of their immediate family and that means ALL of them.  For others you have to get permission from ONE immediate family member just in case someone files a complaint. This information came from Family Search. Hope this clarifies things a bit. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/23/2017 at 3:43 PM, NightSG said:

Doesn't matter; the only thing keeping anybody from checking the "I have permission" box is personal integrity, and there seem to be a lot of people that think nothing of lying whenever they feel like it, even in matters involving the temple.

NOPE. You have to provide a way to contact the person you say gave you permission. Name address and phone number is required now. I went through this with my mother in law who is Jewish. Things have changed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Kshuller said:

NOPE. You have to provide a way to contact the person you say gave you permission. Name address and phone number is required now. I went through this with my mother in law who is Jewish. Things have changed.

Plus my understanding now is that if you are found submitting names without actually getting permission or providing accurate information regarding that permission you can be banned from using FamilySearch.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, pam said:

Plus my understanding now is that if you are found submitting names without actually getting permission or providing accurate information regarding that permission you can be banned from using FamilySearch.

Yeah! Finally! 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, pam said:

Plus my understanding now is that if you are found submitting names without actually getting permission or providing accurate information regarding that permission you can be banned from using FamilySearch.

very true. I was told the only reason they would contact the person you identified as giving permission would be if another family member filed a demand to delete temple work for their ancestor. The reason it was decided to freeze access for temple work to 110 years after a person's birth was to ensure they were dead and to avoid problems with living immediate family members. This is a recent change so when you find your ancestors work done check to see when by clicking on Ordinances. Old temple work was not under the restrictions that you deal with today. WHY members decided it was a good idea to baptize everyone on the list of Holocaust victims has never been published. This is why the changes were made. How Jewish families found out about that temple work is also not known but someone in that temple  went to these families with this information. If you know Jewish people and I do you understand their outrage. In their opinion Hitler killed them and Mormons stole their Jewish heritage from them. A worse decision could not have been made. Also consider the immense difficulty in canceling temple work when a deceased person accepted it. I sincerely doubt that can be done but there will be no record of it in Church records. That will be fixed during the Millennium. The system as is stands today allows unrighteous living to hinder the righteous dead but it is what it is. Someone in South America made a very bad decision. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 6/29/2017 at 9:12 PM, miav said:

Maybe your great great great aunt has a grandson who is LDS. Or you have 4th cousin twice removed who is LDS. There is many combination that would make it possible for someone to be LDS on your line. If I go back three generations in my genealogy chart and then tract one of my ancestors descendants I would probably come up with thousands od descendants, I would know maybe about 100 of them but not the rest. These descendants would have the possibility to go to our common ancestor and then look at their descendants and do work for them if they qualify. So they most likely are the ones that did the work.  Even though you come through royalty you don't know everyone on your line, nd chances are someone is LDS and doing the work. Or maybe someone is doing the work without permission, some people do break the rules.

It's disappointing not to do your own ancestors work, but I would let it go and be happy their work is done and concentrate on other work that needs to be done.

When I discovered that my great & great greats work had been done, I went to great lengths to discover who submitted their names. For those who included current email addresses, I wrote and asked: How are we related? What a joy to find living kin who are also LDS!!! They were more closely related that I was. I have 3-ring binders now with the Family Group Sheets of each of these living *Cousins* and their ancestry - had to do this to keep them all straight and connected to their kindred dead.

On 5/23/2017 at 12:43 PM, NightSG said:

Doesn't matter; the only thing keeping anybody from checking the "I have permission" box is personal integrity, and there seem to be a lot of people that think nothing of lying whenever they feel like it, even in matters involving the temple.

My youngest sister lied like a rug in checking that box. If the living wife, children of those deceased relatives, who-by the way- are super ANTI-Mormon, ever find out she did the proxy work, they would hunt her down and hang her.

9 hours ago, Kshuller said:

NOPE. You have to provide a way to contact the person you say gave you permission. Name address and phone number is required now. I went through this with my mother in law who is Jewish. Things have changed.

Thankfully

6 hours ago, pam said:

Plus my understanding now is that if you are found submitting names without actually getting permission or providing accurate information regarding that permission you can be banned from using FamilySearch.

Not only banned from using FamilySearch, but also from submitting & doing your own printed names at the Temple. It took me years of work, and untold hours of research to print off the proof that certain names are NOT our blood line or even adopted into the family to get these people removed from my people. Men allegedly married to other women plus all the children they allegedly produced. Women having children that they really didn't have. Then I have submitted my proof to the church and waited - oh so patiently - for them to correct everything. All of this false information was entered by and submitted for proxy work by my little sister. She is now banned from submitting names and from FamilySearch.

1 hour ago, Kshuller said:

very true. I was told the only reason they would contact the person you identified as giving permission would be if another family member filed a demand to delete temple work for their ancestor. The reason it was decided to freeze access for temple work to 110 years after a person's birth was to ensure they were dead and to avoid problems with living immediate family members. This is a recent change so when you find your ancestors work done check to see when by clicking on Ordinances. Old temple work was not under the restrictions that you deal with today. WHY members decided it was a good idea to baptize everyone on the list of Holocaust victims has never been published. This is why the changes were made. How Jewish families found out about that temple work is also not known but someone in that temple  went to these families with this information. If you know Jewish people and I do you understand their outrage. In their opinion Hitler killed them and Mormons stole their Jewish heritage from them. A worse decision could not have been made. Also consider the immense difficulty in canceling temple work when a deceased person accepted it. I sincerely doubt that can be done but there will be no record of it in Church records. That will be fixed during the Millennium. The system as is stands today allows unrighteous living to hinder the righteous dead but it is what it is. Someone in South America made a very bad decision. 

I have a rather distant cousin who is NOT LDS, he gathers information on his genealogy through his local FHC. One of the LDS workers there gave him her member number so that he could go online at home to look up his ancestors family history AND to see how many had LDS ordinances done. Well, there were a lot. He was incensed that his people were baptized into the LDS church.  Knowing that I was LDS, he blamed me for doing all of that. I finally got the full story out of him, along with print outs (yeah I sent him a money order for $50.00 to cover the cost of the paper, ink and postage) of every thing. [to this day he doesn't know how to save to pdf and thus email it all] Three months of research later and I had proof of who did the submitting - in every case it was closer relatives than him who were LDS. Shocked his world! All this proof I sent to him via his email account. Plus I also got the name of the FHC LDS Lady who gave him her # - that he freely and proudly gave to me - - I turned her in to her Stake President.

I personally know a man whose Grandparents are Jewish and had survived the Holocaust. He converted to LDS, and with his siblings permissions he submitted his kindred dead to the Temple. He went armed with letters from his & their living relatives giving him permission, along with True Copies of all necessary documentation of kinship. He learned more of the LDS church after the first publicized outcry of Holocaust victims having the proxy work done. This lead to his conversion, baptism, and about two years later receiving his endowment.

Each time a member of his family gets baptized, he rejoices. Doesn't matter if it is a kindred dead, or living - he rejoices. When a living *cousin* receives their endowment, gets married/sealed in the temple, goes on a mission - he rejoices.

It has been some time since I have submitted any names - still working on the ones that I did submit [have renewed those that I can do, and released those that I can't] so I don't know what the actual wording and how much explanation you can give. But for each person I will be submitting, I will have documentation/written permission in my fat little hand [on a flash drive actually] if they want to see it. I don't lie. Not to anyone. Because it will ALWAYS come back and BITE YA!!

Edited by Iggy
tried to edit and remove the strikethrough that I did NOT add.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sunday21 - When I was called as T&FHC - the Branch President said: Because of your skill on the computer and hunting people down, is why he was calling me. Couldn't figure THAT one out, especially since the Lead T&FHC hasn't really put anything in front of me regarding family history.

THEN during one of our Gospel Doctrine classes, the instructor made a comment that he personally had hit nothing but brick walls for the past 5 years regarding his mother's line. I chirped up with - Sis Lead T&FHC or I would LOVE to help you, give us a call - email - text.

That was a month or so ago - well I got an email from him. He gave me access to his FamilySearch account, I gathered up the names/emails of those who had submitted data and names. Sent them to him and suggested that he write if he didn't already know how they were related to him. See if they had any Holes in Those Brick Walls.

So, he did. They ALL responded, now they are passing information to each other. These are *cousins* he didn't know he had, and half of them are NOT LDS - Can you spell: Missionary Moment? What is amazing, is that not only did he get corrected data: Birth/death/marriage dates, etc., but he is also getting Family Lore.

He does need to be very careful when corresponding and sharing information with the nonLDS - keep the proxy work from them. He and his wife have put a LARGE white board behind their computer monitor - with the names of the Cousins, their religious affiliation, then the common ancestors under their names. This helps them when they are emailing and even talking on the phone with them. One blessing is that none of his new cousins are anti-LDS.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now