Eternal Marriage

[fatima]

Is there any way out of an LDS marriage?  For instance-I'm a Catholic in a tough marriage.  Not abusive or anything, but not thoughtful, considerate, cherished.  More rude, impatient, must-do-things-his-way sort of marriage.

Quite frankly, there are days when I look forward to 'til death do us part'.  In an LDS marriage, if there is no really solid ground for divorce (or the Catholic equivalent of annulment) is a spouse stuck for eternity in tolerable, although not particularly happy, marriage?

[estradling75]

Of course there is a way out.  You say no and walk away.

God does not compel or force anyone to follow his commands (ie see Satan)

Of course there are consequences for such actions and some people might think that such consequences are compulsions.  But the simple fact is we are responsible for the choices we make and sometimes we are faced with hard choices.

 

[Jane_Doe]

If a couple wants to divorce, they can do that.  No one is going to stop them.

Now whether or not divorcing is the right move- that's a different story.  Divorce is always a tragedy, but sometimes it tragedies do happen (such as abuse, adultery, addiction).  Clearly we strive our hardest with Christ to avoid such tragedies.  Things such a loving understanding, marriage counseling, patience, etc are great helps.

Note: while LDS do believe in sealings for eternity (between spouses and parent-child bonds), these are Celestial things and for the Celestial Kingdom- a place devoid of sin, devoid of understanding, where we'll each be our perfected self.  So many of the issues that bog us down here (like speaking unkindly to each other) will be washed away.

[Sunday21]

Dear Fatima,

Great to hear from you! If this is your situation. I am truly sorry!

First a caveat, I live in low density mormonville (thank you @zilfor this great description!).

So what happens where I live. What some do: Some people hang on to the bitter end. As long as their spouse does not do any of the three A's: alcoholism, abuse, adultery.

What others do: leave when they are fed up.

Consequences in this life for leaving when you are fed up: none that I have seen.

For a temple recommend, they ask questions such as are you obeying the word of wisdom, are you behaving well towards family members (I interpret this question as are you beating the kids), they ask you if you are paying child support. So yes, you can be divorced and go the temple. I am divorced and work in the temple.

Some people where I live have had more than one divorce, they serve in callings, give prayers. Level of gossip here is errily low. MOrmon women where I live, with very few exceptions, don't gossip at all. You never know anyone's back story.

SO if I were married and I began legal proceedings against my spouse, what would happen? Nothing much. The bishop might ask to speak to me. At most, he might cry. But that's it. 

I have two home teachers. They visit once a month. My big concern is getting them to visit. Sometimes they ring and run. I am careful to leave the wooden front door open with the glass door locked in the summer so that I can catch them! If I was going through a divorce, they might shake their heads and frown but to be honest with you, these people are not very interested in other people. Mainly they tell me long stories about some episode from their life. I ask them if they have a message for me - they read a faith promoting story from our monthly magazine. We say prayer and they leave. I am not complaining by the way. In fact, one of my teachers is coming by today to give me a blessing along with the missionaries and I am grateful. The reason that I am telling you this is to stress that I am not in anyway under surveillance. No one is watching me for the purposes of discipline or any other reason. When I interact with people, they are not looking for reasons to turn me in. By the way, ocassionally I meet an lds woman who is judgemental. One lady noticed that I had only one church outfit. These people almost always leave the church. 

How often do I interact with those who run my ward? Not very often!

Once every two years, I have two temple recommend interviews. The first with one of the three members of the bishopric. In this interview, we are both trying to get the interview over promptly because the three members of the bishopric have many other responsibilities and full time jobs. None of these people are in anyway chatty. They are not interested in me personally which makes sense. They have their own lives.

For the second interview, I see one of the three brothers who run the stake. One of them is chatty but his emphasis is, are you happy? Do you feel loved? Again, no one is interested in controlling me. No one asks my political opinions or what I do with my spare time.

once a year, I see my bishop to assure him that I am paying tithing. This interview can be measured in seconds.

i am divorced and I have never heard a word about it! I have never heard the merest breathe of a criticism. No one could care less.

What could I do to make my bishop happy? Take on more church jobs or callings. I have drawn a line in the sand after two callings. No more! 

The lds faith is not very judgemental. Certainly not where I live. No one is in competition with others but..where I live, there is strong pressure to take on more work. I say no!

[NeuroTypical]

Hi fatima, are you on the similar thread at CAF?  They have a thread going on the same topic.  You're welcome here either way.

LDS marriage is basically two imperfect people trying to do better than yesterday.  We're full of advice on how people can change and improve.  We preach forgiveness, love, tolerance.  But yeah, as estradling mentions, we have both divorce for this life, and sealing cancellations for the eternities.  We teach there is no excuse for things like abuse or adultery, and the fruits of such things are divorce and church discipline, including excommunication. 

We don't do "Suffer with your evil spouse through this life and reap the blessings in heaven".  

[anatess2]

1 hour ago, fatima said:

Is there any way out of an LDS marriage?  For instance-I'm a Catholic in a tough marriage.  Not abusive or anything, but not thoughtful, considerate, cherished.  More rude, impatient, must-do-things-his-way sort of marriage.

Quite frankly, there are days when I look forward to 'til death do us part'.  In an LDS marriage, if there is no really solid ground for divorce (or the Catholic equivalent of annulment) is a spouse stuck for eternity in tolerable, although not particularly happy, marriage?

Hello fatima, God's greatest gift to man is free will.  This is the only way that man can align his will to God's.  So, if it is not your will or your spouse's will to fulfill your eternal covenants to a spouse no amount of sealing can keep that marriage together through the eternities.

But the objective here is to align your will to God's.  This is true in mortality as it is in eternity, in Catholic as it is in Mormon theology.  A happy marriage is not about what you're getting out of your spouse.  A happy marriage is about your satisfaction of the amount of service you are able to do for your spouse.  It is ALWAYS outwards looking as is the will of God.  God's will is not for His own benefit.  It is a pure love for His children.  It is His love for us that increases His glory.  So - the outward service of love is what makes God great, not our worship for Him.  The outward service of our love for God is what makes us great.

So, If what you feel makes you happy is your husband's thoughtfulness, consideration, etc., then you are not in a happy marriage even if your husband IS considerate, thoughtful, etc. because God wills for us to love as He has loved us.  But if what makes you happy is being able to have the opportunity to be thoughtful and considerate and kind and loving, etc. to this rough diamond of a man who is a son of God such that you can get him closer to his true divine potential... then a happy marriage you will have regardless of whether he is rude, impatient, and must-do-things-his-way guy.  It is when you lose yourself in the service of your spouse that you gain happiness.

Just my 2 cents.

Edited May 17, 2017 by anatess2

[Guest MormonGator]

5 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

 

We don't do "Suffer with your evil spouse through this life and reap the blessings in heaven".  

Well said. I never understood that about Catholic teaching, but that sums it up  

I'm no expert in canon law but I think you can divorce as long as you don't remarry.  Very cruel that you are stuck to a life of loneliness if you are on the wrong end of a divorce.  Even one you don't want.  

[anatess2]

11 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

We don't do "Suffer with your evil spouse through this life and reap the blessings in heaven".  

 

7 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

Well said. I never understood that about Catholic teaching, but that sums it up  

I'm no expert in canon law but I think you can divorce as long as you don't remarry.  Very cruel that you are stuck to a life of loneliness if you are on the wrong end of a divorce.  Even one you don't want.  

I disagree with this. 

"Suffer with your evil <people> through this life and reap the blessings in heaven" is EXACTLY what Jesus Christ did for us.

Of course, if your description of suffering is - not having your spouse love you the way you want to be loved - then yeah, you're suffering not because of your spouse.  You're suffering because you don't understand what marriage is.

[fatima]

1 hour ago, NeuroTypical said:

Hi fatima, are you on the similar thread at CAF?  They have a thread going on the same topic.  You're welcome here either way.

LDS marriage is basically two imperfect people trying to do better than yesterday.  We're full of advice on how people can change and improve.  We preach forgiveness, love, tolerance.  But yeah, as estradling mentions, we have both divorce for this life, and sealing cancellations for the eternities.  We teach there is no excuse for things like abuse or adultery, and the fruits of such things are divorce and church discipline, including excommunication. 

We don't do "Suffer with your evil spouse through this life and reap the blessings in heaven".  

Yes, I'm the same one who asked on CAF, but no LDS answered me, only Catholics, so I figured I'd come here.

I think my question is being misunderstood (or I'm not the brightest crayon in the box).  

Do LDS have to spend eternity with a spouse that hasn't been the greatest?  If one spouse isn't really to strive to live by the LDS tenets, while the other one is?

[fatima]

1 hour ago, anatess2 said:

Hello fatima, God's greatest gift to man is free will.  This is the only way that man can align his will to God's.  So, if it is not your will or your spouse's will to fulfill your eternal covenants to a spouse no amount of sealing can keep that marriage together through the eternities.

But the objective here is to align your will to God's.  This is true in mortality as it is in eternity, in Catholic as it is in Mormon theology.  A happy marriage is not about what you're getting out of your spouse.  A happy marriage is about your satisfaction of the amount of service you are able to do for your spouse.  It is ALWAYS outwards looking as is the will of God.  God's will is not for His own benefit.  It is a pure love for His children.  It is His love for us that increases His glory.  So - the outward service of love is what makes God great, not our worship for Him.  The outward service of our love for God is what makes us great.

So, If what you feel makes you happy is your husband's thoughtfulness, consideration, etc., then you are not in a happy marriage even if your husband IS considerate, thoughtful, etc. because God wills for us to love as He has loved us.  But if what makes you happy is being able to have the opportunity to be thoughtful and considerate and kind and loving, etc. to this rough diamond of a man who is a son of God such that you can get him closer to his true divine potential... then a happy marriage you will have regardless of whether he is rude, impatient, and must-do-things-his-way guy.  It is when you lose yourself in the service of your spouse that you gain happiness.

Just my 2 cents.

Hello, Anatess!  What a great response!  For clarification-I am a practicing Catholic and I am not actually trying to get out of my marriage.  Like I said, it's not abusive or anything, but I was curious about LDS theology on the topic.

It is my belief that being happy comes from being holy, and doing God's Will, as you have said, in service to my spouse.  I get to try to love him as God loves him, in spite of my feelings on the subject.

[Vort]

3 minutes ago, fatima said:

Yes, I'm the same one who asked on CAF, but no LDS answered me, only Catholics, so I figured I'd come here.

I think my question is being misunderstood (or I'm not the brightest crayon in the box).  

Do LDS have to spend eternity with a spouse that hasn't been the greatest?  If one spouse isn't really to strive to live by the LDS tenets, while the other one is?

fatima, God forces us in nothing. If we truly do not wish to be with a spouse, God will not "make us do it", even if we're sealed to that spouse. But God also does not remove the consequences of our choices. So no, an LDS spouse doesn't have to stay with his/her spouse through all eternity against his will. As others have pointed out, if we accept the exaltation God offers us, we will be made perfect through Christ. Because of this, we may assume that we will have grown beyond being upset with or frustrated by or bored with our spouse.

Reading your post, I'm less concerned about LDS vs. Catholic theology and more concerned about the state of your marriage. If your husband is basically a decent person, not abusive or hateful, but simply not as involved as you would like, there are ways to help him grow -- and to help yourself to grow, as well. You married him because you saw something about him that attracted you. Now your expectations haven't been met. What do you do?

This is the time to show him, and God, and yourself, that you were serious about those marital promises you made. Now is the time to invite your husband to join you in remembering why you married in the first place, and renew that commitment in a more mature manner. God bless you in your efforts.

[estradling75]

2 minutes ago, fatima said:

Yes, I'm the same one who asked on CAF, but no LDS answered me, only Catholics, so I figured I'd come here.

I think my question is being misunderstood (or I'm not the brightest crayon in the box).  

Do LDS have to spend eternity with a spouse that hasn't been the greatest?  If one spouse isn't really to strive to live by the LDS tenets, while the other one is?

Again the answer is no.  To spend eternity together both spouses have to receive the greatest of all the gifts of God... to be like him.  Thus both have to become Christ-like.  If you can't make your relationship work with a Christ-like person then you don't get it.

Now does it mean that in this life the person is Christ-like... nope.  Because everyone is a work in progress.  Which brings us back to Anatess's point, about trying to bring your spouse and yourself as close to god as you can.

 

[anatess2]

31 minutes ago, fatima said:

Hello, Anatess!  What a great response!  For clarification-I am a practicing Catholic and I am not actually trying to get out of my marriage.  Like I said, it's not abusive or anything, but I was curious about LDS theology on the topic.

It is my belief that being happy comes from being holy, and doing God's Will, as you have said, in service to my spouse.  I get to try to love him as God loves him, in spite of my feelings on the subject.

Yes, I know you're Catholic (love that name - fatima!).  I was just talking to my niece about the Prayer of Fatima that is prayed at the end of every decade in the rosary and how it came about...

Anyway, I wasn't sure if you understood my LDS answer (the first paragraph on my post) so I'm going to try to expound it here.  Eternal marriage is conditioned upon 2 things - sealing and worthiness.  The sealing part is where you make your covenant.  Note that a covenant is a promise between you and God. It is not a promise between you and your spouse.  Although, the promise you make to God in this covenant is that you will love your spouse.  That covenant is not conditioned on your spouse's worthiness.  It is only conditioned on your own worthiness.  So, basically, your eternal marital covenant remains in effect regardless of what your spouse does.  Note that mortality is only a small part of marital existence.  Marriage - and the opportunities for repentance - extends past death all the way to final judgment.  So, if you remain worthy of your marital covenants, even as your spouse falls short of it in mortality, he still has the chance to redeem himself as far as the Atonement of Christ is made possible.  But, if either you or your spouse becomes unworthy (or unwilling) the sealing can be broken.  Sometimes, the sealing is broken while in mortality to prevent more sins from getting committed and give the person a chance for repentance and hopefully enter into another covenant.  Sometimes, the sealing is not broken until the final judgment.  Either way, eternal marriages can only remain in force when one is worthy of God's promises which is His part in the marital covenant.  Makes sense?

[fatima]

1 hour ago, anatess2 said:

Yes, I know you're Catholic (love that name - fatima!).  I was just talking to my niece about the Prayer of Fatima that is prayed at the end of every decade in the rosary and how it came about...

Anyway, I wasn't sure if you understood my LDS answer (the first paragraph on my post) so I'm going to try to expound it here.  Eternal marriage is conditioned upon 2 things - sealing and worthiness.  The sealing part is where you make your covenant.  Note that a covenant is a promise between you and God. It is not a promise between you and your spouse.  Although, the promise you make to God in this covenant is that you will love your spouse.  That covenant is not conditioned on your spouse's worthiness.  It is only conditioned on your own worthiness.  So, basically, your eternal marital covenant remains in effect regardless of what your spouse does.  Note that mortality is only a small part of marital existence.  Marriage - and the opportunities for repentance - extends past death all the way to final judgment.  So, if you remain worthy of your marital covenants, even as your spouse falls short of it in mortality, he still has the chance to redeem himself as far as the Atonement of Christ is made possible.  But, if either you or your spouse becomes unworthy (or unwilling) the sealing can be broken.  Sometimes, the sealing is broken while in mortality to prevent more sins from getting committed and give the person a chance for repentance and hopefully enter into another covenant.  Sometimes, the sealing is not broken until the final judgment.  Either way, eternal marriages can only remain in force when one is worthy of God's promises which is His part in the marital covenant.  Makes sense?

I think I may be understanding.  Sealed for eternity assumes both parties want that?  Each spouse in a marriage will be allowed, after death, to decide if they want to remain sealed to the other?

As Vort said, and all the rest that has been said here re: our personal growth in holiness, how we treat our spouses and the promises we made is 100% in keeping with what I believe as a Catholic.  

I'm very interested (not conversion interested) in LDS theology.  I respect a lot of aspects of the LDS faith, so your church's teaching on the subject came up in my mind as I was mulling over this issue.

[anatess2]

Just now, fatima said:

I think I may be understanding.  Sealed for eternity assumes both parties want that?  Each spouse in a marriage will be allowed, after death, to decide if they want to remain sealed to the other?

As Vort said, and all the rest that has been said here re: our personal growth in holiness, how we treat our spouses and the promises we made is 100% in keeping with what I believe as a Catholic.  

I'm very interested (not conversion interested) in LDS theology.  I respect a lot of aspects of the LDS faith, so your church's teaching on the subject came up in my mind as I was mulling over this issue.

One of the hardest things I had to resolve after I got through the Great Apostasy when I was investigating LDS theology was the LDS position on divorce and abortion.  Those 2 things I had a very strong testimony on as a Catholic.

[Jane_Doe]

7 minutes ago, fatima said:

I think I may be understanding.  Sealed for eternity assumes both parties want that?  Each spouse in a marriage will be allowed, after death, to decide if they want to remain sealed to the other?

Yes, assuming that they are both worthy.

7 minutes ago, fatima said:

I'm very interested (not conversion interested) in LDS theology.  I respect a lot of aspects of the LDS faith, so your church's teaching on the subject came up in my mind as I was mulling over this issue.

Ditto in the reverse here-- LDS person interested in Catholic theology and respectful of it, while have 0 interested in conversion.  I spent 12 years attending various Catholic events, and 2 years doing intensive studies of the faith.  I greatly appreciated the journey.  

[fatima]

48 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

One of the hardest things I had to resolve after I got through the Great Apostasy when I was investigating LDS theology was the LDS position on divorce and abortion.  Those 2 things I had a very strong testimony on as a Catholic.

May I ask what convinced you of a Great Apostasy?  What about the LDS position on divorce and abortion did you find problematic?

[Guest]

Eternal marriage is covenanting with your spouse and God to bind yourselves to each other for eternity. I could pontificate on what that means, but I'll summarize: it's not a one and done deal, it's a choice you make every day, year after year. If all parties are keeping their end, no doubt they'd all wish for that covenant to continue in perpetuity.

God promises certain blessings in connection to those covenants; so my spouse could be in violation, but since I am still keeping my end of the deal with him and with God, I can expect to enjoy those blessings. If we get to the other side and I've kept my promises and my spouse hasn't, I trust God to see to my eternal happiness.

The question is, is there breaking of covenants or just him being a knucklehead, or ignorant? Is he aware of the nature of your unhappiness? Is he unwilling to work on it? Have you very honestly looked at your part in it?

 

I don't believe there is no room for divorce, but I believe most enter too quickly and too freely. Marriage is so hard sometimes, and like anything worthwhile takes a lot of work. I believe you have to earn your way out of a marriage by spending a lot of time doing everything you possibly can to nurture it.

 

 

[fatima]

47 minutes ago, Eowyn said:

Eternal marriage is covenanting with your spouse and God to bind yourselves to each other for eternity. I could pontificate on what that means, but I'll summarize: it's not a one and done deal, it's a choice you make every day, year after year. If all parties are keeping their end, no doubt they'd all wish for that covenant to continue in perpetuity.

God promises certain blessings in connection to those covenants; so my spouse could be in violation, but since I am still keeping my end of the deal with him and with God, I can expect to enjoy those blessings. If we get to the other side and I've kept my promises and my spouse hasn't, I trust God to see to my eternal happiness.

The question is, is there breaking of covenants or just him being a knucklehead, or ignorant? Is he aware of the nature of your unhappiness? Is he unwilling to work on it? Have you very honestly looked at your part in it?

 

I don't believe there is no room for divorce, but I believe most enter too quickly and too freely. Marriage is so hard sometimes, and like anything worthwhile takes a lot of work. I believe you have to earn your way out of a marriage by spending a lot of time doing everything you possibly can to nurture it.

 

 

And you've answered another piece of the puzzle for me.  As a Catholic, I am working on all of my own issues through the Sacraments and my spiritual director,  and my part in helping my marriage to be all God plans.  I am trying, with His Grace, to examine my own contributions to where we are after all of these years.  I didn't think your eternal blessings would be separated from your spouses.  

What LDS 'heaven' is like might be the right question to ask.   I guess I assumed that since you are with your spouse eternally, and that you still live as a married couple, that heaven was very much like earth, although obviously something must be different.  

[anatess2]

2 hours ago, fatima said:

May I ask what convinced you of a Great Apostasy?  What about the LDS position on divorce and abortion did you find problematic?

Very simple answer now that I've gone beyond it.

All it is, is a matter of faith.  Faith in the Apostolic Authority of the Popes or Faith in the Apostolic Authority of the modern Prophets.  Because, this is the factual history:  Jesus Christ ordained 12 Apostles.  Every time one Apostle is released from the quorum, another one is called in his place.  This was evident with Matthias to replace Judas.  Therefore, Apostolic Authority has always been given to Apostles.  Bishops were also ordained to minister in the Church.  But Bishops have different roles in the Church than the Apostles. Somewhere along the line, the Church decided to give Bishops Apostolic Authority.  There is nowhere in scripture or even in Holy Tradition that describes how this happened except for the claim that Pope Linus (the Bishop of Rome after Peter) was Peter's disciple.  So, it is a matter of Faith to accept the Apostolic Authority of the Bishops with the primacy of the Apostolic authority of the Bishop of Rome to preside over the Church.  The LDS teaches that Apostolic Authority did not pass to Bishops - rather, it stayed with Apostles.  And, since there were no Apostles called after all the Apostles in the New Testament died, the Apostasy was complete until new Apostles were called and ordained with Apostolic Authority - Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery.  So, there's really no other answer to the question of the Great Apostasy except for it being a question of Faith -  if the Apostolic Authority was passed to the Bishops, then the Catholic Church is true.  If Apostolic Authority did not pass to the Bishops, then the LDS Church is true.

As far as divorce and abortion - I believe that divorce is against God's will.  I also believe that abortion is against God's will.  Since the LDS Church allows divorce and abortion in certain cases, it was a contradiction.  This contradiction was resolved by 2 truths that the Catholic Church do not teach - Eternal Marriage and Premortal Existence.... of course, both things require Faith to accept it as true.

 

 

Edited May 17, 2017 by anatess2

[fatima]

50 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

Very simple answer now that I've gone beyond it.

All it is, is a matter of faith.  Faith in the Apostolic Authority of the Popes or Faith in the Apostolic Authority of the modern Prophets.  Because, this is the factual history:  Jesus Christ ordained 12 Apostles.  Every time one Apostle is released from the quorum, another one is called in his place.  This was evident with Matthias to replace Judas.  Therefore, Apostolic Authority has always been given to Apostles.  Bishops were also ordained to minister in the Church.  But Bishops have different roles in the Church than the Apostles. Somewhere along the line, the Church decided to give Bishops Apostolic Authority.  There is nowhere in scripture or even in Holy Tradition that describes how this happened except for the claim that Pope Linus (the Bishop of Rome after Peter) was Peter's disciple.  So, it is a matter of Faith to accept the Apostolic Authority of the Bishops with the primacy of the Apostolic authority of the Bishop of Rome to preside over the Church.  The LDS teaches that Apostolic Authority did not pass to Bishops - rather, it stayed with Apostles.  And, since there were no Apostles called after all the Apostles in the New Testament died, the Apostasy was complete until new Apostles were called and ordained with Apostolic Authority - Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery.  So, there's really no other answer to the question of the Great Apostasy except for it being a question of Faith -  if the Apostolic Authority was passed to the Bishops, then the Catholic Church is true.  If Apostolic Authority did not pass to the Bishops, then the LDS Church is true.

As far as divorce and abortion - I believe that divorce is against God's will.  I also believe that abortion is against God's will.  Since the LDS Church allows divorce and abortion in certain cases, it was a contradiction.  This contradiction was resolved by 2 truths that the Catholic Church do not teach - Eternal Marriage and Premortal Existence.... of course, both things require Faith to accept it as true.

 

 

I'm truly fascinated by your answer.  Divorce is allowed by both Catholic and LDS, so I'm not sure I understand why that was a contradiction for you in your journey to LDS.  How does Premortal Existence resolve abortion as an inherent evil?

I won't bother discussing the Apostolic Authority, because while I disagree (obviously), you are a studied and prayerful person; I have no interest in challenging you.

[Jane_Doe]

11 minutes ago, fatima said:

How does Premortal Existence resolve abortion as an inherent evil?

In LDS theology, the baby's spirit wasn't created at the time of conception, but existed long before then.  If something goes wrong in the in-utero development process, the spirit will simply get a different body at a later date.  This doesn't mean we should go about sabotaging in-utero development casually-- LDS theology only allows abortion in extreme cases, but there are rare extreme cases where things go super badly and a couple can consult carefully with the Lord on what to do.  Abortion is NEVER supposed to be used as a form of birth control.  

[Vort]

13 hours ago, Jane_Doe said:

In LDS theology, the baby's spirit wasn't created at the time of conception, but existed long before then.  If something goes wrong in the in-utero development process, the spirit will simply get a different body at a later date.  This doesn't mean we should go about sabotaging in-utero development casually-- LDS theology only allows abortion in extreme cases, but there are rare extreme cases where things go super badly and a couple can consult carefully with the Lord on what to do.  Abortion is NEVER supposed to be used as a form of birth control.  

This is not quite correct. True, our spirits were created before our birth -- in fact, before the world was created. But it is not LDS doctrine that "if something goes wrong in the in-utero development process, the spirit will simply get a different body at a later date." That is purely inference. In fact, God's methods for determining the time, place, and circumstances of our birth have not been revealed (at least not publicly).

It's also misleading to say that "LDS theology...allows abortion in extreme cases." The Handbook does not ever explicitly "allow" abortion; rather, it says that, in some circumstances, abortion may not require any ecclesiastical intervention. Some will say this is just a matter of how things are phrased, but I see an important distinction. The Church never says, "This abortion is O-Kay! Approved! Go for it!"

Edited May 18, 2017 by Vort

[fatima]

Okay, this thread has brought to mind questions that I didn't have before.  Starting a new thread, though!

[anatess2]

17 hours ago, fatima said:

I'm truly fascinated by your answer.  Divorce is allowed by both Catholic and LDS, so I'm not sure I understand why that was a contradiction for you in your journey to LDS.  How does Premortal Existence resolve abortion as an inherent evil?

I won't bother discussing the Apostolic Authority, because while I disagree (obviously), you are a studied and prayerful person; I have no interest in challenging you.

Divorce is not allowed in the Roman Catholic Church.  Of course, you can divorce your spouse outside of the Church (secular/legal) but in the records of the Church you are still married.  You can get your marriage annulled which is different from a divorce.  The Philippines (my country), divorce is illegal as a lot of the laws of the land is influenced by the 85+% Roman Catholic population.

Premortal Existence adds new light to the matter of When Does Life Begin?  Catholics teach in Creation out of Nothing - that is, God created the human spirit from nothing at the moment of conception such that if an embryo dies, a human spirit dies.  The gift of free will, therefore, does not include the free choice of which body the human spirit is born into.  LDS do not believe in Creation out of Nothing.  Rather, LDS believe that the human spirit is eternal.  The human spirit exists before conception, chooses by virtue of free will to enter mortality anytime between conception and birth, then sheds that body at death to enter post-mortal life.  Because of this, there is a period of time between conception and birth where the embryo may yet not have become a vessel of a human spirit and therefore the death of the embryo does not necessarily mean a death of a human spirit.  Also, as the spirit has a choice as to the body he enters, there is also the possibility that the spirit chose to join the body that is destined for death before birth.

About challenging one's beliefs - I don't mind it at all.  But, we can discuss the matter ad nauseum and it still wouldn't change the fact that no amount of discussion/debate/challenge can build faith.  Faith is something we have to take to God and the Holy Spirit for confirmation.  Until that confirmation comes, discussing matters of faith is just another interesting past time as there's no way possible that anyone can prove that Bishops have authority in the same manner that there's no way possible that anyone can prove that Joseph Smith has authority in the same manner that there's no way possible that anyone can prove Jesus Christ is God without the confirmation of the Holy Ghost.