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A few days ago I watched a documentary, First Contact The Lost Tribe of the Amazon. This film sparked something I have been pondering and debating in my head for some time now. Maybe someone here has been able to reconcile this issue in their own mind.

When looking at the earth population as a whole, 7 Billion people, I start to ask myself about the pre-mortal circumstances that placed me to be born in a semi-active, good natured LDS family vs. the circumstances that allowed for one of God's children to be born and live their life in total isolation to not only the gospel, but the entire world as we know it, such as some of the people shown in the documentary. These people have to worry about scavenging food each day and hoping the other tribes don't come and murder their family in the night, while we debate here about the fate of "unrepentant" people in the Telestial world. And not to focus on just extreme poverty or isolation, there are plenty of "civilized" people that go through very similar circumstances today as well. The spectrum is so broad and its difficult to account for the whole group under the Plan of Salvation as I understand it.

The first inner conflict is that I just don't feel like I am that lucky. Out of 7 billion people, I just happened to be born into the Gospel, ended up serving a church mission ( I was certainly not prepared at the start, but I was able to gain a real testimony during my service), sealed in the temple and have access to higher temple knowledge, by chance? And that doesn't even take into account the amazing point in time during the earth's history. I don't believe there is any randomness in the Plan of Salvation. I feel that there must be something I did or requested to be where I am, but I can't tell if that makes me feel better or worse. Without a doubt, there are plenty of people I know, outside of the LDS bubble, that are in many ways much closer to Christ that I or my fellow church members. So I don't believe it can't be solely based on merit, however looking at the doctrine of Foreordination it gets messy in my head.

A .002% chance to be born in the true Church of Christ on the earth gives me pause. I am never ever that lucky at anything. Take it a step further an look at of those .002% how many will actually truly be saved after receiving higher ordinances and knowledge. Its difficult to imagine or such a small fraction of God's children becoming exalted. How would so many by into a plan they might not ever be exposed to? LDS.org states, under Foreordination, "In the premortal spirit world, God appointed certain spirits to fulfill specific missions during their mortal lives. This is called foreordination. Foreordination does not guarantee that individuals will receive certain callings or responsibilities. Such opportunities come in this life as a result of the righteous exercise of agency, just as foreordination came as a result of righteousness in the premortal existence." So am I really to believe that my foreordination to be born in these relativity abundant circumstances as compared to others is because I was potentially more "righteousness" than others? I suppose the only way for me to accept that perspective is to acknowledge that now I am under a much greater condemnation than those that started with "less," so it wouldn't be viewed as an un-fair advantage.

The "what if's" make me really wonder if I would have been able to listen to the spirit of Christ enough to be pulled towards the Gospel and become converted from the outside. Could that be the only reason I had to be born within the Gospel? Because I wouldn't have been strong enough to find or accept it otherwise? That line of thinking just leads to more questions and doesn't feel right. This begs the question of what is fair? At least in the context of everyone's starting mortal condition. It doesn't seem fair that I was placed where I am, given so much without much "temporal" effort on my part, and then I see others that will possibly never even hear the name of Jesus Christ in the right context. I don't buy into the pre-mortal "fence sitter" line of thought so how does everyone else reconcile their situation with that of those on the other extreme of life? Are any "Noble and Great Ones" born into an amazon tribe in the middle of the rain forest? Is that the "mission" some feel they have been assigned in life? Can any of these missions be unrelated to the Gospel of Jesus Christ? Great Muslim leaders for example?

When we were all sitting their during that great council in the beginning, were we thinking about how this could all be fair to everyone? I can imagine that maybe this topic might have been something that caused some others to choose the other side, complaining "How could that be fair?" Honestly it is hard to imagine a new, excited spirit child of God giving their "buy-in" to a plan in which they will have no part while in their earthly state. A plan that so many will never learn about. Were we able to see what path we would be starting in our earthly existence? Did we all agree to our birth time and surrounding circumstances, or parents even? It just seems too easy to say to ourselves, that they "deserve" their lot in life because that is how they chose to exercise their agency in the pre-mortal existence.

Seeing these people make contact with the outside world makes me really wonder about the Garden of Eden setting. How close are these people to that same state of "innocence"? They must have some inkling of the Light of Christ somewhere, but things like taking another person's life don't seem to impact them spiritually in the same way. How different could these people be from the time of Adam and Eve and Cain and Able? Go and watch some of the first time encounters and tell me what thoughts run through your head as you attempt to view life through their perspective. Maybe I am just overthinking all this. I trust in God's plan, but I would really like a way to fit this part in my understanding.

Elder Holland's recent talk in GC, "Songs Sung and Unsung", touches on the fact that it can be hard to focus on singing happy hymns in the face of extreme poverty. This talk touches on the topic I am getting at, but its not just the poverty, its the access to the Gospel knowledge. Not only do they not have the basic Gospel teaching or temples, but they don't know who their savior is in any sense of the word. Its impossible for us to decide what constitutes a "Fair Chance" to accept the Gospel of Christ, but at least the majority of people get to hear the watered down story of who Christ was.

Long story short, I just don't feel that I am lucky enough or was righteous enough to deserve my life over the life of someone less fortunate, in both a Gospel sense and temporal well being. How am I and that tribal chief different in God's plan? How is it all fair to everyone without thinking you are or at least were better in some way, than someone else?

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As a really short reply to a thoughtful essay, a crucial aspect of faith--at least mine--is the belief that God is good and just.  For all the questions you raise, traditional Christianity can be even more challenging.  We believe a good number of souls will end up in hell--eternal torment.  We believe that after mortality there are no further opportunities for salvation.  Of course many of us ask questions like, "But what if someone never heard the gospel?"  The LDS Plan of Salvation gives much more fuel to a doctrine we both agree on:  That God is fair.  Still, as your post points out, there remain questions and examples in life that tempt us to question God's justice and goodness.  The answer for me is one that LDS tend to appreciate--PRAY FOR A SPIRITUAL CONFIRMATION OF GOD'S GOODNESS AND JUSTICE!  Beyond that, it is healthy to read through the stories of scripture, looking for examples of God's goodness, mercy, and justice.  The opposite incidents are entirely the result of sinful humanity--badness, harshness, and injustice.

As a personal example, someone I cared about greatly committed suicide.  This individual had very recently converted. So, I asked the LORD if this one was in heaven or hell.  After about three weeks I received my answer.  The LORD said, "Trust me."  So I thought he must be in heaven.  Then the Lord said, "No...I just said 'Trust me.'"  So I thought he was in hell.  The Lord said, "No.  I said, 'Trust me.'"  And I did.  And I do.

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My thoughts.

The pre-existence is a REAL thing.  When there, WE made a choice of what and where we wanted to end up.  Even there we made choices pertaining to the Celestial, Terrestrial, and Telestial Kingdoms.

WE CHOSE the circumstances of our lives here.  If you are LDS, YOU CHOSE to be born into that family.  You still must choose whether to choose the good, or choose the evil, but where you are in this life is a DIRECT RESULT of what you chose in the pre-existence.

Some chose to live in wealth and luxury in this life.  Maybe they felt this was something they'd rather have in this life, and maybe preferred that and going to the Telestial Kingdom later, because they were content with that result.

Some might have chosen to live a life of hardship, feeling that they would learn from the experience, and compared to the eternities, the experience was brief enough that it was better learning it in this brief period than spending a much longer time elsewhere.

Some might have decided that they did NOT want the responsibility that may ensue with going to a Celestial reward, and chose to live a Great Life, with great devotion, but only desired to have a Terrestrial glory later where they could live a life they so desired in the hereafter.

Some may have desired to be like their father, and were born either in the church, or with the ability to choose to join the church and attain all that was required in order to attain the Celestial Kingdom if they endured in this mortal life.  They still have choices, but they made the decision to give them the best possible ability to attain that goal.

We see these aspects in this life as well.  Some are content with their job and what they have at the point of life they are at and are content to continue that way.  Others constantly strive to better themselves (whether economically, educationally, or otherwise).  Still, others resort to lives of crime and the underworld.  We are different in this life with different motivators, I think a similar idea existed in the pre-existence, and also may exist in the hereafter.

There are numerous other things people may have chosen.  However, I think that we had a LARGE number of choices that directly reflect where we are in this life, and the rewards of the hereafter.  I think people discount how large an impact the pre-mortal existence plays on our lives, and why, because of the direct choices we made in the pre-existence in regards to what glory we desire in the hereafter, it can make it so the Lord can ensure that justice and mercy are fair to EVERYONE on this earth.

It is obvious if it were just based upon the things that occur in this world, there would be NO JUSTICE, because of the differences into which we are born into.  However, when we take into effect the idea that the Pre-existence had a HUGE impact on where we are today, and that in essence, it is the great equalizer, we can then realize that the final judgement will be as fair and just as it is merciful.

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1 hour ago, JohnsonJones said:

My thoughts.

The pre-existence is a REAL thing.  When there, WE made a choice of what and where we wanted to end up.  Even there we made choices pertaining to the Celestial, Terrestrial, and Telestial Kingdoms.

WE CHOSE the circumstances of our lives here.  If you are LDS, YOU CHOSE to be born into that family.  You still must choose whether to choose the good, or choose the evil, but where you are in this life is a DIRECT RESULT of what you chose in the pre-existence.

Some chose to live in wealth and luxury in this life.  Maybe they felt this was something they'd rather have in this life, and maybe preferred that and going to the Telestial Kingdom later, because they were content with that result.

Some might have chosen to live a life of hardship, feeling that they would learn from the experience, and compared to the eternities, the experience was brief enough that it was better learning it in this brief period than spending a much longer time elsewhere.

Some might have decided that they did NOT want the responsibility that may ensue with going to a Celestial reward, and chose to live a Great Life, with great devotion, but only desired to have a Terrestrial glory later where they could live a life they so desired in the hereafter.

Some may have desired to be like their father, and were born either in the church, or with the ability to choose to join the church and attain all that was required in order to attain the Celestial Kingdom if they endured in this mortal life.  They still have choices, but they made the decision to give them the best possible ability to attain that goal.

We see these aspects in this life as well.  Some are content with their job and what they have at the point of life they are at and are content to continue that way.  Others constantly strive to better themselves (whether economically, educationally, or otherwise).  Still, others resort to lives of crime and the underworld.  We are different in this life with different motivators, I think a similar idea existed in the pre-existence, and also may exist in the hereafter.

There are numerous other things people may have chosen.  However, I think that we had a LARGE number of choices that directly reflect where we are in this life, and the rewards of the hereafter.  I think people discount how large an impact the pre-mortal existence plays on our lives, and why, because of the direct choices we made in the pre-existence in regards to what glory we desire in the hereafter, it can make it so the Lord can ensure that justice and mercy are fair to EVERYONE on this earth.

It is obvious if it were just based upon the things that occur in this world, there would be NO JUSTICE, because of the differences into which we are born into.  However, when we take into effect the idea that the Pre-existence had a HUGE impact on where we are today, and that in essence, it is the great equalizer, we can then realize that the final judgement will be as fair and just as it is merciful.

I think you described better what I was really trying to articulate. I totally agree that the pre-existence must have played such a huge role in the "why" of our initial mortal circumstances. It provides the crucial framework of how, individually, we will each have to navigate our souls back to the path. Its when I ponder how my own decision was made to be born into and LDS family or why the spirit of the man born into the isolated tribe lifestyle choose that path that things start to get messy. This topic even reaches out to complicate the idea of the final judgement. Our final judgement must, by default, take into account at least in some part our "starting point" since its relative to where we end up. There must be a need for "judgement" at least at a couple different times throughout our journey to perfection.

Do you have any sources to back up the idea of choosing everything we start with or conceptualizing which kingdom we would be aiming for? Can we go that far to say that many have just simply forgotten that they have already chosen to be content with a Telestial or Terrestrial state for eternity? I think there is a lot of grey area here. This must just be one of those things that we will just have to trust is fair and just to everyone even though the logistics don't always appear completely just.

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On 5/24/2017 at 10:26 AM, prisonchaplain said:

As a really short reply to a thoughtful essay, a crucial aspect of faith--at least mine--is the belief that God is good and just.  For all the questions you raise, traditional Christianity can be even more challenging.  We believe a good number of souls will end up in hell--eternal torment.  We believe that after mortality there are no further opportunities for salvation.  Of course many of us ask questions like, "But what if someone never heard the gospel?"  The LDS Plan of Salvation gives much more fuel to a doctrine we both agree on:  That God is fair.  Still, as your post points out, there remain questions and examples in life that tempt us to question God's justice and goodness.  The answer for me is one that LDS tend to appreciate--PRAY FOR A SPIRITUAL CONFIRMATION OF GOD'S GOODNESS AND JUSTICE!  Beyond that, it is healthy to read through the stories of scripture, looking for examples of God's goodness, mercy, and justice.  The opposite incidents are entirely the result of sinful humanity--badness, harshness, and injustice.

As a personal example, someone I cared about greatly committed suicide.  This individual had very recently converted. So, I asked the LORD if this one was in heaven or hell.  After about three weeks I received my answer.  The LORD said, "Trust me."  So I thought he must be in heaven.  Then the Lord said, "No...I just said 'Trust me.'"  So I thought he was in hell.  The Lord said, "No.  I said, 'Trust me.'"  And I did.  And I do.

I like that story. I think I have had similar promptings to just sit back and trust the Lord. Maybe it's just one of those things the God knows we aren't ready to really understand or maybe we just literally cannot understand in this perspective of reality.

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3 minutes ago, Ankh_ said:

This must just be one of those things that we will just have to trust is fair and just to everyone even though the logistics don't always appear completely just.

I think you can say that about most of religion.  We have many wonderful principles.  But people think it falls apart when we scrutinize things with a microscope.  Well, that's because general principles are just that -- general.  Once a broad principle is looked at with every conceivable possbility and circumstance, one can either choose to believe it was a false principle (and fall away) or one can choose to have faith that a loving God with perfect justice and mercy will make a good judgment in the end.

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22 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

I think you can say that about most of religion.  We have many wonderful principles.  But people think it falls apart when we scrutinize things with a microscope.  Well, that's because general principles are just that -- general.  Once a broad principle is looked at with every conceivable possbility and circumstance, one can either choose to believe it was a false principle (and fall away) or one can choose to have faith that a loving God with perfect justice and mercy will make a good judgment in the end.

I tend to imagine a situation where I attempt to explain to my very young child why I need to leave home and go to work each day. Trying to explain this to the level of detail I want to understand the pre-existence would require so much more explanation. For example, the concept of having a "job" and being paid for service/time, and the idea money in general would have to be expounded upon at some length. It is much simpler to just give a brief overview to the child's understanding and trust that someday they will grow up and be able to understand the concept as they mature and do it themselves. Its a weird example, but I think you guys understand what I am trying to get at. The trust has to go both ways.

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Just now, Ankh_ said:

I tend to imagine a situation where I attempt to explain to my very young child why I need to leave home and go to work each day. Trying to explain this to the level of detail I want to understand the pre-existence would require so much more explanation. For example, the concept of having a "job" and being paid for service/time, and the idea money in general would have to be expounded upon at some length. It is much simpler to just give a brief overview to the child's understanding and trust that someday they will grow up and be able to understand the concept as they mature and do it themselves. Its a weird example, but I think you guys understand what I am trying to get at. The trust has to go both ways.

I think we were talking about two different things.  I was referring to your last statement about having faith that some things we think are unjust really will be "just" in the end.

Now, you're talking about trying to understand all the details.  Well, I think they are actually related.  Remember that the Lord doesn't want to command us in all things.  We need to figure some things out for ourselves.

If I told you that going to work everyday and earning a living for your family is a good principle, you'd probably agree with me.  It is right that you should do this (unless you're so fortunate that you can work from home).  But if someone wanted to find something wrong with it, they could simply say,"What if your family is murdered while you were gone to work!?  You could have been there to save them and protect them!"

Someone can always find something wrong with ANYTHING.  And ANYthing can be made to seem wrong if you just want to make it look bad (think of the war in heaven).  And, yes, faith is one lens through which we can look to remind us of the good reasons in spite of the bad reasons.

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2 hours ago, Ankh_ said:

I think you described better what I was really trying to articulate. I totally agree that the pre-existence must have played such a huge role in the "why" of our initial mortal circumstances. It provides the crucial framework of how, individually, we will each have to navigate our souls back to the path. Its when I ponder how my own decision was made to be born into and LDS family or why the spirit of the man born into the isolated tribe lifestyle choose that path that things start to get messy. This topic even reaches out to complicate the idea of the final judgement. Our final judgement must, by default, take into account at least in some part our "starting point" since its relative to where we end up. There must be a need for "judgement" at least at a couple different times throughout our journey to perfection.

Do you have any sources to back up the idea of choosing everything we start with or conceptualizing which kingdom we would be aiming for? Can we go that far to say that many have just simply forgotten that they have already chosen to be content with a Telestial or Terrestrial state for eternity? I think there is a lot of grey area here. This must just be one of those things that we will just have to trust is fair and just to everyone even though the logistics don't always appear completely just.

I do not have any easily understood doctrinal references in this regards.  There are some that are not easily understood or could be explained in other ways.  There are also various reading materials by prophets and others that go into this idea.

This is why I say my thoughts (which are not even as strong as an opinion and definitely do not even come close to being a belief, much less doctrinal).

Some reading material which is NOT doctrine, but goes into this a little bit would be the following, some of which could be illuminating, some which is not.  Understand that many of these were written from the opinions and viewpoints of the authors, rather than a doctrinal statement of faith.

Doctrines of Salvation by Joseph Fielding Smith*

The Promised Messiah by Bruce R. Mckonkie*

The Millenial Messiah by Bruce R. McKonkie

Mormon Doctrine by Bruce R McKonkie

Answers to Mormon Questions by Joseph Fielding Smith

The Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith*

The First Two Thousand Years by Cleon Skousan

*I put a little mark after those which were a little more influential on my thoughts on this than others.

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You need to research the doctrine of election.   Joseph Smith and other apostles and prophets taught that because of how valiant you were in the pre-existance, you earned the right to be born into the Church. Those who were mediocre or not valiant do not have that same blessing.  They were born in places like the heathen countries.   It may not seem fair,  but this is based on how valiant you were.

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2 minutes ago, Jojo Bags said:

You need to research the doctrine of election.   Joseph Smith and other apostles and prophets taught that because of how valiant you were in the pre-existance, you earned the right to be born into the Church. Those who were mediocre or not valiant do not have that same blessing.  They were born in places like the heathen countries.   It may not seem fair,  but this is based on how valiant you were.

The problem with this teaching has nothing to do with fairness. Rather, there are two issues:

  1. When you compare the rather large minority of BIC Saints who are wicked with the small minority, but numerically overwhelmingly huge, of "Gentiles" who are deeply good, kind, Godly people, the idea that the BIC Saints were all uniformly "more valiant" (whatever that might even mean) premortally than the non-LDS but very good people appears absurd.
  2. This kind of teaching leads directly to the hypocrisies of unrighteous judgment, something to be avoided at all costs. As we continue to take a beating from anti-Mormons and even faithful but confused Saints regarding the pre-1978 reasoning (now disclaimed as being anything other than speculation) about black Africans being "less valiant premortally" and thus cursed with respect to the Priesthood, I would think we'd be much more careful about making such statements.
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4 hours ago, Vort said:

The problem with this teaching has nothing to do with fairness. Rather, there are two issues:

  1. When you compare the rather large minority of BIC Saints who are wicked with the small minority, but numerically overwhelmingly huge, of "Gentiles" who are deeply good, kind, Godly people, the idea that the BIC Saints were all uniformly "more valiant" (whatever that might even mean) premortally than the non-LDS but very good people appears absurd.
  2. This kind of teaching leads directly to the hypocrisies of unrighteous judgment, something to be avoided at all costs. As we continue to take a beating from anti-Mormons and even faithful but confused Saints regarding the pre-1978 reasoning (now disclaimed as being anything other than speculation) about black Africans being "less valiant premortally" and thus cursed with respect to the Priesthood, I would think we'd be much more careful about making such statements.

You'll have to take it up with those Church leaders who have taught this doctrine.   It doesn't matter who it upsets if it's true.  

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11 hours ago, Vort said:

The problem with this teaching has nothing to do with fairness. Rather, there are two issues:

  1. When you compare the rather large minority of BIC Saints who are wicked with the small minority, but numerically overwhelmingly huge, of "Gentiles" who are deeply good, kind, Godly people, the idea that the BIC Saints were all uniformly "more valiant" (whatever that might even mean) premortally than the non-LDS but very good people appears absurd.
  2. This kind of teaching leads directly to the hypocrisies of unrighteous judgment, something to be avoided at all costs. As we continue to take a beating from anti-Mormons and even faithful but confused Saints regarding the pre-1978 reasoning (now disclaimed as being anything other than speculation) about black Africans being "less valiant premortally" and thus cursed with respect to the Priesthood, I would think we'd be much more careful about making such statements.

This goes along with how I view myself. I like to consider myself a generally good person, but there are many other people not of our faith that I am sure are much closer to Christ.  Maybe there were many valiant spirits who choose not to be born in the church, but it would be a complicated choice to not give yourself that advantage. Maybe pre-mortal righteousness was a contributing factor, but it seems too black and white to say those that members were just more valiant and could be born in the gospel.

6 hours ago, Jojo Bags said:

You'll have to take it up with those Church leaders who have taught this doctrine.   It doesn't matter who it upsets if it's true.  

Do you have any specific sources you could quote? I plan to dig a little deeper into this myself.

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