The "ex" relationship


Bini
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8 hours ago, Backroads said:

So how exactly should children of divorced parents fulfill the commandment to have families if they have no business getting married?

Huh?? Where did I say that they have no business getting married?  I absolutely think they should get married; I have never said anything opposite.

What I said is that I would recommend that my children (who do come from a stable marriage and who aren't getting divorced and anyone who comes from a stable, two-parent family (i.e. a non-broken home)) that they do not married someone who comes from a broken home.  

Equally yolked.  

I don't recommend my children and I would advice them to run away from someone of a different race and ethnicity in marriage.  Not b/c the other person is bad, but b/c it will mean that they will inherently be unequally yolked.  

A lot of marriage comes down to compromise and change; coming from vastly different upbringings, will inherently mean that the two individuals in marriage are coming from two different levels.  Would you rather start off your marriage like this:

A..................................................................................................................................................................................................................B

or like this:

A................................................B

Things will already be naturally challenging b/c men and women are different . . .that is good.  How much more difference to you want to introduce into the marriage???

It's something that is mind-boggling to me.  People say, oh well, I don't like her/him b/c he's not tall enough, not funny enough, not xyz-a whole bunch of really superficial items.  But they don't (or at least we have been taught not to in modern culture) to look at the history, background, upbringing. . . i.e. the deeper things that really DO matter.

Edited by yjacket
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31 minutes ago, yjacket said:

Huh?? Where did I say that they have no business getting married?  I absolutely think they should get married; I have never said anything opposite.

What I said is that I would recommend that my children (who do come from a stable marriage and who aren't getting divorced and anyone who comes from a stable, two-parent family (i.e. a non-broken home)) that they do not married someone who comes from a broken home.  

Equally yolked.  

I don't recommend my children and I would advice them to run away from someone of a different race and ethnicity in marriage.  Not b/c the other person is bad, but b/c it will mean that they will inherently be unequally yolked.  

A lot of marriage comes down to compromise and change; coming from vastly different upbringings, will inherently mean that the two individuals in marriage are coming from two different levels.  Would you rather start off your marriage like this:

A..................................................................................................................................................................................................................B

or like this:

A................................................B

Things will already be naturally challenging b/c men and women are different . . .that is good.  How much more difference to you want to introduce into the marriage???

It's something that is mind-boggling to me.  People say, oh well, I don't like her/him b/c he's not tall enough, not funny enough, not xyz-a whole bunch of really superficial items.  But they don't (or at least we have been taught not to in modern culture) to look at the history, background, upbringing. . . i.e. the deeper things that really DO matter.

But then to be equally yoked, they would have to marry someone else from a broken home, only increasing the likelihood of divorce.

You also mentioned financial background. My uncle has millions of dollars. Not one of his kids found a multimillionaire to marry. Only one divorce out of 11 kids.

I get it, you are hoping to get the closest match. But some things are just hard to match and resigning to find someone as bad off as yourself in background seems to be asking for trouble.

Edited by Backroads
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1 hour ago, Backroads said:

But then to be equally yoked, they would have to marry someone else from a broken home, only increasing the likelihood of divorce.

You also mentioned financial background. My uncle has millions of dollars. Not one of his kids found a multimillionaire to marry. Only one divorce out of 11 kids.

I get it, you are hoping to get the closest match. But some things are just hard to match and resigning to find someone as bad off as yourself in background seems to be asking for trouble.

You should get a load of the guy last week who said he would never recommend marriage to anyone who had ever been overweight (not someone "currently overweight" but even someone who had been overweight in the past and slimmed down)!

While it isn't really my business what one requires in a spouse, I had a  very hard time holding my peace on that one.  

Edited by DoctorLemon
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3 hours ago, Backroads said:

But then to be equally yoked, they would have to marry someone else from a broken home, only increasing the likelihood of divorce.

You also mentioned financial background. My uncle has millions of dollars. Not one of his kids found a multimillionaire to marry. Only one divorce out of 11 kids.

I get it, you are hoping to get the closest match. But some things are just hard to match and resigning to find someone as bad off as yourself in background seems to be asking for trouble.

I understand . . . if one comes from a stable family finding someone who also comes from a stable family is not too hard to match.

If it is too hard to match then we are doomed as a society; to come to the point that coming from a broken home is the norm (and it's "too hard" to find someone similar) means we as a society are not living the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

In other words, this advice I'm giving is old-school advice; I'm not spouting off anything new-it has been around for quite some time.  If what you are saying is true, that it is too hard to find, then maybe, just maybe we ought to look at what we are doing as a society-maybe "progress" ain't progress.

50 years ago when divorce was the exception, nobody would bat an eye at my advice, b/c it was the common refrain.  But now that divorce is common, everyone is up in arms.  

What changed? Did the concept of marriage change? or did society's treatment of it change?

Edited by yjacket
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9 minutes ago, yjacket said:

I understand . . . if one comes from a stable family finding someone who also comes from a stable family is not too hard to match.

If it is too hard to match then we are doomed as a society; to come to the point that coming from a broken home is the norm (and it's "too hard" to find someone similar) means we as a society are not living the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

In other words, this advice I'm giving is old-school advice; I'm not spouting off anything new-it has been around for quite some time.  If what you are saying is true, that it is too hard to find, then maybe, just maybe we ought to look at what we are doing as a society-maybe "progress" ain't progress.

50 years ago when divorce was the exception, nobody would bat an eye at my advice, b/c it was the common refrain.  But now that divorce is common, everyone is up in arms.  

What changed? Did the concept of marriage change? or did society's treatment of it change?

I have a theory . . .Antonin Scalia didn't die.  He just went online and started posting right here under the screen name @yjacket.

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2 minutes ago, DoctorLemon said:

I have a theory . . .Antonin Scalia didn't die.  He just went online and started posting right here under the screen name @yjacket.

You know it's one of those things that is so funny; religious people all the time bemoan the current, sad state of affairs in the world.  People bemoan divorce rates, disobedient children, lack of respect, etc. in today's society.  They seem to think that it just happens and that any prior generations teaching was "bigoted, misogynist, etc".  

There is a reason why the family was more stable 50 years ago, why divorce rates were lower, children were more obedient,etc.  If you want those good things . . .then maybe, just maybe we should adapt the thinking of those in the prior generation.

Or we could just keep going the way we are going, ignoring the wisdom of the past.

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2nd Corinthians 6:14  Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness?  and what communion hath light with darkness?

Doctrine and Covenants 84:106  And if any man among you be strong in the Spirit, let him take with him him that is weak, that he may be edified in all meekness, that he may become strong also.
 

I realise that the purpose, context and audience of 2 Corinthians 6 14 and D&C 84:106 are quite different, but I can't help thinking that there is a bit of a contrast between the two and the idea of being equally yoked together should perhaps not be considered in isolation to all other scriptural teachings. It's probably also worth pointing out that when Paul was talking about being unequally yoked together, he was talking about believers not being yoked with unbelievers, rather than speaking against people from intact families being yoked with people from broken families, whereas the Lord in D&C 84:106 the Lord specifically instructs that the strong be united with him that is weak. I'm also reminded of the story of Ruth, a foreigner, who was raised by a single mother, and who followed a different religion, and who the Lord "arranged" to marry a wealthy Jew. Based on the descriptions that have been used in this discussion, this marriage had of the characteristics of being unequally yoked, but it is something that God himself brought to pass, and ultimately, Christ descended from that union.. 

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On 6/10/2017 at 9:34 PM, Backroads said:

Sure, it is good advice. Great ideal advice.

But then what advice do you give to those with less-than-ideal situations? That's really my question.

"Every child, with few possible exceptions, is the product of a home, be it good, bad, or indifferent. As children grow through the years, their lives, in large measure, become an extension and a reflection of family teaching. If there is harshness, abuse, uncontrolled anger, disloyalty, the fruits will be certain and discernible, and in all likelihood they will be repeated in the generation that follows. If, on the other hand, there is forbearance, forgiveness, respect, consideration, kindness, mercy, and compassion, the fruits again will be discernible, and they will be eternally rewarding. They will be positive and sweet and wonderful. And as mercy is given and taught by parents, it will be repeated in the lives and actions of the next generation."

Gordon B. Hinkley

Truth, from a Prophet of God.

The above is all I'm saying.  If people want to proclaim that divorce is not a product of anger, disloyalty, harshness, etc. then that is cool. I would beg to differ.  More likely than not the underlying causes of divorce (anger, harshness, selfishness, disloyalty, abuse, etc.) will be repeated in the next generation.  Based on the above, I will advise my children to not marry someone from a broken home. If they choose to disregard that counsel-that is their choice....

Edited by yjacket
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But that's not my question. If an upstanding young person who happened to come from a broken family came to you asking "yjacket, I would love to marry and raise a godly family but my own parents divorced which I realise creates a risk problem for potential spouses. Do you have any advice for me?", what would you say?

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On 6/10/2017 at 9:34 PM, Backroads said:

Sure, it is good advice. Great ideal advice.

But then what advice do you give to those with less-than-ideal situations? That's really my question.

I'm closer to @yjacket on this one but I haven't piped in in his defense out of respect for Bini.  Then I thought to myself... Bini knows where I stand on this one - she's got a Filipino background...

So, yes.  I'm giving the same advice to my children that @yjacket gave his children.  It's really not much different from giving advice to the youth to marry a Mormon, even a return missionary.  So, you might think, well, that's hypocritical because my husband married a Catholic.  Not really.  The fact still remains - my husband took a gigantic risk marrying me.  My sons know that and not only are they taught that, they see it manifest in our household.  So, my 15-year-old got himself a girlfriend -  Catholic from divorced parents.  Went against our advice.  So, did I forced my kid to break up with the girl?  No.  What I did was gave him the exact same advice - taught him all the pitfalls for such a choice and all the risks he's taking and that he'll have to be prepared if he ends up in the bad side of statistics.  He understands.  He told her girlfriend everything I said.  His girlfriend said she completely understands and that her dad have the exact same viewpoint (he's half-Filipino and uber Catholic - his wife divorced him... not totally her fault, he had mental issues).  Anyway, it helps that my son's girlfriend is my sister-in-law's brother's daughter.... so, we kinda all grew up together so I know the foundation of that entire family.  And yeah... that's a big element in why my son decided to have a relationship with this girl even with all the "does not fit the pattern" conditions.

My dad's advice - even as I deviated from it - is sound.  Don't marry an American.  They think it's fine to divorce their spouses.  Yes, I married an American.  No, not all Americans think it's fine to divorce their spouses.... doesn't make my dad's advice, given in generalities, bad.  In any case, this is the pattern by which the Church teaches - even the Proclamation of the Family.  "This is the pattern."  Of course, it is subject to individual adaption.

 

Edited by anatess2
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16 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

I'm closer to @yjacket on this one but I haven't piped in in his defense out of respect for Bini.  Then I thought to myself... Bini knows where I stand on this one - she's got a Filipino background...

So, yes.  I'm giving the same advice to my children that @yjacket gave his children.  It's really not much different from giving advice to the youth to marry a Mormon, even a return missionary.  So, you might think, well, that's hypocritical because my husband married a Catholic.  Not really.  The fact still remains - my husband took a gigantic risk marrying me.  My sons know that and not only are they taught that, they see it manifest in our household.  So, my 15-year-old got himself a girlfriend -  Catholic from divorced parents.  Went against our advice.  So, did I forced my kid to break up with the girl?  No.  What I did was gave him the exact same advice - taught him all the pitfalls for such a choice and all the risks he's taking and that he'll have to be prepared if he ends up in the bad side of statistics.  He understands.  He told her girlfriend everything I said.  His girlfriend said she completely understands and that her dad have the exact same viewpoint (he's half-Filipino and uber Catholic - his wife divorced him... not totally her fault, he had mental issues).  Anyway, it helps that my son's girlfriend is my sister-in-law's brother's daughter.... so, we kinda all grew up together so I know the foundation of that entire family.  And yeah... that's a big element in why my son decided to have a relationship with this girl even with all the "does not fit the pattern" conditions.

My dad's advice - even as I deviated from it - is sound.  Don't marry an American.  They think it's fine to divorce their spouses.  Yes, I married an American.  No, not all Americans think it's fine to divorce their spouses.... doesn't make my dad's advice, given in generalities, bad.  In any case, this is the pattern by which the Church teaches - even the Proclamation of the Family.  "This is the pattern."  Of course, it is subject to individual adaption.

 

That is a very good, fair, and well considered explanation.

Edited by DoctorLemon
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51 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

I'm closer to @yjacket on this one but I haven't piped in in his defense out of respect for Bini.  Then I thought to myself... Bini knows where I stand on this one - she's got a Filipino background...

So, yes.  I'm giving the same advice to my children that @yjacket gave his children.  It's really not much different from giving advice to the youth to marry a Mormon, even a return missionary.  So, you might think, well, that's hypocritical because my husband married a Catholic.  Not really.  The fact still remains - my husband took a gigantic risk marrying me.  My sons know that and not only are they taught that, they see it manifest in our household.  So, my 15-year-old got himself a girlfriend -  Catholic from divorced parents.  Went against our advice.  So, did I forced my kid to break up with the girl?  No.  What I did was gave him the exact same advice - taught him all the pitfalls for such a choice and all the risks he's taking and that he'll have to be prepared if he ends up in the bad side of statistics.  He understands.  He told her girlfriend everything I said.  His girlfriend said she completely understands and that her dad have the exact same viewpoint (he's half-Filipino and uber Catholic - his wife divorced him... not totally her fault, he had mental issues).  Anyway, it helps that my son's girlfriend is my sister-in-law's brother's daughter.... so, we kinda all grew up together so I know the foundation of that entire family.  And yeah... that's a big element in why my son decided to have a relationship with this girl even with all the "does not fit the pattern" conditions.

My dad's advice - even as I deviated from it - is sound.  Don't marry an American.  They think it's fine to divorce their spouses.  Yes, I married an American.  No, not all Americans think it's fine to divorce their spouses.... doesn't make my dad's advice, given in generalities, bad.  In any case, this is the pattern by which the Church teaches - even the Proclamation of the Family.  "This is the pattern."  Of course, it is subject to individual adaption.

 

As I have said before, I have nothing against this view and completely support it.

My only question is for those, like your son's gal, who are already the product of bad statistics through no fault of their own. Where do they lie in the relationship world? 

 

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2 hours ago, Backroads said:

As I have said before, I have nothing against this view and completely support it.

My only question is for those, like your son's gal, who are already the product of bad statistics through no fault of their own. Where do they lie in the relationship world? 

When people say that they caution their children against marrying XXX (children of a broken home, victims of sexual abuse, those with severe acne, whatever), I don't think those people are generally telling their children, "If you find someone who is XXX, for heaven's sake, DON'T DATE HIM/HER! Avoid like the plague!"

Rather, I think the idea is more like, "If you find someone who is XXX, then be acutely aware of what often happens and look very, very carefully before proceeding. Keep looking diligently the whole time you are dating, and if things get serious, look that much harder. Make doubly (or triply, or quadruply) sure that this is a situation you feel comfortable in getting past before proceeding. DON'T DECEIVE YOURSELF. You are playing with fire, so be extra careful."

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3 hours ago, Backroads said:

As I have said before, I have nothing against this view and completely support it.

My only question is for those, like your son's gal, who are already the product of bad statistics through no fault of their own. Where do they lie in the relationship world? 

 

In a tough spot.  That's just reality.  That is why in the Philippines, divorce remains illegal.  There is just not many people who will vote for it.  And that's why as a parent, saving a marriage even if it is just for the sake of the children is a noble choice unless abuse is involved.  I don't even consider adultery or addiction as a deal-breaker but that's just me.

So, if you are one of those who is a product of a broken household - especially when it broke when you are very young - my suggestion is for you to take a hard look at yourself and your life and try to work on getting yourself well-adjusted.  Usually you think you're just fine and then you get married.  Events inside a marital relationship gets to trigger all the crap that has been hidden in your own psyche that you haven't quite dealt with.  Doing this, you'll be able to "sell yourself" to a potential mate who may be resistant to the baggage your parents made you carry.  And not just that, this gives you a better chance of being able to stick to a marriage even if it is starting to look like your parents' marriage.

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4 hours ago, anatess2 said:

In a tough spot. 

@anatess2 said it pretty well.  My advice; really analyze yourself and commit 100% to whomever it is that you marry.  Eliminate any and all outs.  Unfortunately (or fortunately), we find a heck of a lot more out about ourselves in marriage than being single . . . "you think you're just fine and then you get married" carries a lot of truth.

My biggest piece of advice is to honest to goodness make sure you are not unequally yoked. I harp on it a lot-but there is so much truth to it.  You want to find and marry someone who compliments your weakness, and your strengths compliment their weakness.  But if you're a 3 on the marriage ritcher scale (however that gets measured) and the person you marry is a 10, chances are you are in for some problems.  You want to make sure not just that you "marry over your head", but that your spouse "marries over their head" too!

Ultimately, if I come from a broken home, I wouldn't worry about it too much . . .there are plenty of fish in the sea and so what if you can't catch the biggest bass ever, catch a good one that compliments you well and it will work out.  Interestingly enough, in general people have a way of sub-conscientiously self-selecting out of these situations; for example people tend (not always but tend) to marry individuals that look similar, i.e. a girl who is physically a 10 generally doesn't marry a guy who is physically a 1-it happens but in general people marry other individuals who are more similar than different.

I think this happens in the broken home realm as kids from broken homes self-select out of marriage or marry much later in life.

Finally, I know this sounds weird, but I would advise them to ensure that they are either neutral to or actually enjoy the BO of their potential spouse.  It's actually another one of my hypothesis that marriage is a lot harder today b/c we mask our BO. Before deodorant, etc. it was one of the natural ways of selecting a mate-if you didn't like their BO-ain't gonna happen. And I think for whatever reason, this was/is our bodies way of giving off naturally occurring pheromones/chemicals and signaling compatibility.  Today we mask it so we don't have that signal as to whether or not it would be a naturally good match.  I'm not saying go without deodorant . . .only that you should at least know what your spouse smells like (and whether that smell is repugnant, neutral, or good).

 

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1 hour ago, yjacket said:

Finally, I know this sounds weird, but I would advise them to ensure that they are either neutral to or actually enjoy the BO of their potential spouse.  It's actually another one of my hypothesis that marriage is a lot harder today b/c we mask our BO. Before deodorant, etc. it was one of the natural ways of selecting a mate-if you didn't like their BO-ain't gonna happen. And I think for whatever reason, this was/is our bodies way of giving off naturally occurring pheromones/chemicals and signaling compatibility.  Today we mask it so we don't have that signal as to whether or not it would be a naturally good match.  I'm not saying go without deodorant . . .only that you should at least know what your spouse smells like (and whether that smell is repugnant, neutral, or good).

Well if this thread wasn't interesting to read before now you've made it really interesting! How is this done without deodorant? Or when we get serious with someone are we suppose to go around each other for a favor two without deodorant? 

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6 hours ago, miav said:

Well if this thread wasn't interesting to read before now you've made it really interesting! How is this done without deodorant? Or when we get serious with someone are we suppose to go around each other for a favor two without deodorant? 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Body_odour_and_sexual_attraction

https://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/200801/scents-and-sensibility

It's not that hard . . . take a whiff of dirty clothes.  Or if the guy/girl lives alone, their apart. will smell somewhat similar to their BO (if they don't fragrance the place.)

Before deodorant, people would identify others by their smell  . . .hence the saying "I could smell him a mile away", didn't necessarily have to do with being dirty-it was just a fact of life, even if you bathed regularly. 

Edited by yjacket
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Guest MormonGator
9 minutes ago, askandanswer said:

As a result of this discussion, the questionnaire that I plan on giving to anyone who dates any of my kids more than three times has now grown from 37 to 40 pages. I hope this discussion finishes soon. :) 

Don't let her date anyone with tattoos. Those people are the worst. 

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25 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

Don't let her date anyone with tattoos. Those people are the worst. 

Yeah, especially those who use orange and blue ink on a green background.

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Guest MormonGator
8 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Yeah, especially those who use orange and blue ink on a green background.

Jokes about me? That's one thing. Jokes about the Gators? You just made the list dude.

 

(oh, and by the way-we're going to the college world series in Omaha! Woo-hoo!) 

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