Church Leaders on Mental Health


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15 minutes ago, yjacket said:

Okay, fine call it a young science; but how much actual damage are we really doing to people?  What are all the cost to be associated with drugging people up with drugs that we aren't sure works? Just to make people feel like we know?

How much damage is being done to children diagnosed with ADHD put on ritalin and heaven knows what else,

Don't misunderstand me.  I do believe there are a LOT of irresponsible people out there.  But I just refuse to label the entire field pseudo science regardless of the percentages of quacks.

It is still ultimately the responsibility of the parent or patient to perform due diligence in all their medical decisions.  I'd NEVER just trust ANY doctor at face value.

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19 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Actually, we do have a LOT of knowledge on what causes it.  The problem comes when all such individuals are put into one basket.  Then that big mixed up basket are all given the same drugs to treat the symptom and not the cause.  Or in your case, they all get equally dismissed as those who could fix it through behavior.

 

1) Some people are depressed because, guess what?  They have a rotten life.  They've been abused for most of their childhood and part of their adult lives.  Or they had multiple members of their families die, leaving them an orphan in the foster care system moving from home to home for all their childhood and dumped on the street on their 18th birthday.

2) Some people are depressed because they are simply negative people.  No matter what happens, they are going to find something to be upset about (snowflakes).

3) Some are depressed because they have a portion of their brain that is being influenced (I read a story about a guy with a tumor who all of a sudden became the happiest guy on earth once they removed it).

4) Some are depressed because of drugs and alcohol.  

5) Some have a chemical imbalance.  You think it's only about seratonin?  Think again.

http://www.healthline.com/health-news/researcher-identifies-five-types-of-depression-050814

While gospel principles can certainly help with conditions 1 & 2, it has less of an effect on the others, at least in a direct sense.  And to think that "just living righteously" is going to fix all depression is no better than thinking drugs will fix all depression.

I don't see how condition #3 could be influenced by righteous living.

Condition 4 would be influenced by the WoW.  But again, that is an indirect effect.

Condition 5 I don't see how this can be impacted by righteous living at all.  But I will give you an example from my own life.

I remembered a friend who had infrequently dabbled in recreational drug use.  He got a hold of some LSD and set himself up in a fairly safe place.  As he took the drug he kept reminding himself that whatever he saw, it was just a hallucination.  It was just the drug.  He was going to maintain control.  He was going to ignore any weird visions, sounds, or even feelings.  This does not mean the visions, sounds, and feelings didn't exist.  He actually saw, heard, and felt very odd things.   But he could accept them for what they were -- figments of his imagination.

It was about this time when I was first diagnosed for depression.  I wondered why they were taking blood tests because they didn't seem to say anything.  And I really wondered what the doctor was looking for in my blood because he could never really explain it to me.  After a while I decided there was no point in taking the meds or seeing the doctor because I knew what worked and what didn't.  And this didn't work.

A while later I was discussing homosexuality with my heterosexual brother because our other brother is a homosexual.  I was making the argument that some people are born that way -- i.e. with a hormonal imbalance that tended to react to male pheromones, etc.  Correct or not, he pointed out that it didn't really matter how they were born.  The principles of the gospel say that such individuals are supposed to control it within the bounds that the Lord has set.

I considered his words with the LSD experience from my friend and began changing my attitude.  I still have bouts of depression almost every day.  But I've learned to see them for what they are -- figments of my imagination.  There is an attitude adjustment I made because I have a different type of depression.  Even though I feel it just as deep and heavy, I know that I'm supposed to deal with it.

So, I feel bad.  I put a smile on my face as best I can.  I breathe in and out.  I compartmentalize these emotions.  I perform a series of mental exercises that I don't have the vocabulary to describe.  Most of the time it works.  It hampers my work and home, office, and church.  But it works.  Then there are the days it does NOT work.

For those who do not truly suffer from clinical depression, you simply don't know what it is like.  For me to hear "Oh, you just need to live the gospel" is not only judgmental, but it is completely ignorant of what it really is.

By that same token, as I've said above, I do NOT condone or encourage the excusing any negative or sinful behaviors because of depression.  The sinful behaviors are still sinful regardless of the excuse.  But such a person should be given the same level of mercy as you would give to someone who was angry at the world because their spouse just died.

I seem to have touched a nerve.

No we don't know what causes it.  For #1 Plenty of people have had rotten lives and some get depressed and many don't; some people have perfectly great lives and still deal with depression.  We can say having a rotten life might be an instigator of depression, but to say that it caused it? You can't say that at all. What about people who lived 200 years ago, compared to today-they lived pretty rotten lives, but their mental health (or at least what we know of it) was probably better than collectively today.  #2 Sure . . .but why are they always negative Nacy's? No one knows why they are so negative. #3  Sure that is true, but very small cases. #4 Are they depressed b/c of the drugs or do they use the drugs/alcohol b/c they are depressed??

#5 Because the Gospel contains the answers to all problems that do not reside in the physical realm.  You have admitted the problem resides in the non-physical realm.  If the problem resides in the non-physical realm then the solution to the problem resides in the non-physical realm-i.e. the Gospel of Jesus Christ. It sounds like you have found a way to deal with your problem and work through it; I guarantee the solutions are based upon principles of the Gospel.  Saying the solutions are found in the gospel is different than saying you are a "bad person" b/c you deal with depression and "only if you were more righteous" it would all go away.

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15 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Don't misunderstand me.  I do believe there are a LOT of irresponsible people out there.  But I just refuse to label the entire field pseudo science regardless of the percentages of quacks.

It is still ultimately the responsibility of the parent or patient to perform due diligence in all their medical decisions.  I'd NEVER just trust ANY doctor at face value.

I understand; and if more people did their due diligence it wouldn't be a pet peeve; but when it comes to any type of mental or behavioral problem, the automatic response is "go see a psychologist" or "go see a therapist" or STTE of you can only find the answers by taking this pill, or that pill. Basically, psychology has become our religion rather than God.

We wouldn't tolerate any percentage of quacks in the field of oncology, yet we tolerate quacks in the field of psychology. Why?

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3 minutes ago, yjacket said:

I seem to have touched a nerve.

If you knew anything about me, you'd know you haven't.

3 minutes ago, yjacket said:

No we don't know what causes it.  For #1 Plenty of people have had rotten lives and some get depressed and many don't.  We can say having a rotten life might be an instigator of depression, but to say that it caused it? You can't say that at all. What about people who lived 200 years ago, compared to today-they lived pretty rotten lives, but their mental health (or at least what we know of it) was probably better than collectively today.  #2 Sure . . .but why are they always negative Nacy's? No one knows why they are so negative. #3  Sure that is true, but very small cases. #4 Are they depressed b/c of the drugs or do they use the drugs/alcohol b/c they are depressed??

It can be an instigator but not a cause?  Are you related to Bill Clinton?  So far this has not been a semantic issue.  Don't make it one.

To the rest:  Sophistry.

If I punch you in the arm with a medium-low level of force, you probably won't cry.  If I did the same thing to my 5-y.o. he'd cry.  Are you going to say that because you didn't hurt that the 5-y.o. shouldn't be crying because it didn't hurt him either?  No.  Why?  People have different tolerances to stimuli.  That's the entire point.  People are different.

And in case you didn't get it, #1 and #2 were cases are where I AGREED with you.  Such people in these categories can be entirely fixed by changing their thinking and behavior.  But it seems to be in your nature to seek discord where there isn't any.  What I disagree with is that you seem to lump ALL cases (and my list of 5 things was never meant to be exhaustive) into these categories.

#4: Again, you're seeking discord where there isn't any.

3 minutes ago, yjacket said:

#5 Because the Gospel contains the answers to all problems that do not reside in the physical realm.  You have admitted the problem resides in the non-physical realm.  If the problem resides in the non-physical realm then the solution to the problem resides in the non-physical realm-i.e. the Gospel of Jesus Christ. It sounds like you have found a way to deal with your problem and work through it; I guarantee the solutions are based upon principles of the Gospel.  Saying the solutions are found in the gospel is different than saying you are a "bad person" b/c you deal with depression and "only if you were more righteous" it would all go away.

I don't see where I admitted that in item #5.  I stated that with OTHER CAUSES, the problem resides in the non-physical realm.  This one at the very least, heavily overlaps into the physical realm.  See the link I provided.  You even admitted that #3 is one such cause.  But you still insist on lumping such exceptions into the same category as the rest.

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12 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

 People have different tolerances to stimuli.  That's the entire point.  People are different.

I don't see where I admitted that in item #5.  I stated that with OTHER CAUSES, the problem resides in the non-physical realm.  This one at the very least, heavily overlaps into the physical realm.  See the link I provided.  You even admitted that #3 is one such cause.  But you still insist on lumping such exceptions into the same category as the rest.

"We're talking about emotions -- quite a non-physical phenomenon only impacted by some physical characteristics."-that's what you said.

I absolutely agree, people are different and respond to different stimuli.  Call it our soul, call it our spirit, whatever you want, but yes people are different.  Are we ever really going to know what makes people tick?  Probably not until the hereafter.

I think we are on similar but parallel wavelengths.  I love Hollands talk; what I disagree with is the notion that psychologists know exactly what is going on and why someone is depressed, bi-polar, etc. i.e. they dress up their theories in terms such as "chemical imbalances", sell it to the masses as if they know what they are talking about, when they don't.  They don't know what a "chemical imbalance" is anymore than you or I. 

That is what I dislike, the fraud that is involved in it; if the profession as a whole was honest about it then I wouldn't have a big bone to pick-but they aren't they use fancy titles, three letter names (Dr. Smith, PhD Psycology), to make themselves look like they are saviors to a fallen world to save all those people who suffer and they don't have a clue.

People had mental problems long before we had people with three letters who went to school for years and we've had mental health professionals for just as long.  It's just 100s of years ago they were called "wise men", "pastors", etc.  You don't need a PhD in Pyscology to help someone out, to listen to them, etc. you need the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

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I really, really, really hate this discussion of mental illness with @yjacket.  Yes, I understand where he's coming from.  Yes, I agree with a lot of what he says about the over-reliance on medication that the route of western medicine is taking instead of the more balanced psychological training push with the help of medication as necessary.

Where my blood starts to boil is in @yjacket's atheistic approach to the discussion.  It's not settled science so it must be voodoo and there must not be a chemical imbalance.  It's such an extremist view that it just solidly breaks down any sort of meaningful discussion.  What is the purpose of taking such a disrespectful view of the science?  If your purpose is to alleviate the problem of over-medication, then you're not accomplishing that goal.  Because, holding the extremist position of "it does not exist" flies in the face of people who ARE ALIVE TODAY BECAUSE THEY SOUGHT HELP FROM MEDICATION.

I have presented my story on this forum many times.  And I went through years and years of psychological training because I refused medication.  Yes, there is medication that can alleviate my symptoms.  The problem is not that it alleviates the symptoms, the problem is its side-effects.  I would rather deal with a problem I know than a problem I don't know.  Neuro science - like cancer research - is currently a hit-and-miss process.  I watched my father go through cancer treatment and many times in the course of his struggle I have wanted to strangle his oncologists - they would give my dad Avastin infusion, my dad would have an adverse reaction and the doctor would say, "Let's try this medication and if that doesn't help, take this one and if it causes you to hallucinate, then take this one instead."  My sister had to take me out of the room because I was starting to raise my voice, "My father is not some pin cushion that can just be subjected to trial-and-error!".  Well, that's the field of medicine.  IT IS TRIAL-AND-ERROR because of the complexity of the human physiology and the uniqueness of each individual.  We can't just point to a chemical composition in one's brain and say - that's it, let's eliminate that one.  Everything is intertwined in a complex system of synapses triggered by a combination of chemicals.  Such that, we may not know exactly what is out of balance - but we know something is out of balance because the physiology behaves accordingly contrary to the expressed desire of the brain.

I know something is wrong with me.  You can sit on your high tower and tell me I'm just not righteous enough.  Well, guess what... we all have our challenges in life and it is THE OBJECTIVE OF OUR EXISTENCE to get as close to Christ as we can with the challenges we face.  Okay, fine, I'm not righteous enough to overcome my chemical imbalance with the power of my character.  But then, that's why God created doctors.

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Guest Godless

I'm not well-versed on this topic, so I'll keep my comments brief. I just find it interesting that modern psychology/psychiatry is being compared to 18th Century physical medicine. Do you think advances in physical medicine took place overnight? No, it took hundreds of years to get where we are now. It's only in the last 200 years or so that we've started attributing mental illness to actual medical irregularities rather than demonic possession and such, so obviously we still have a lot to learn. Our incomplete knowledge of mental health is no excuse to stop trying to find answers. Imagine where we'd be if someone had told Louis Pasteur that he wasn't going to find any answers at the bottom of his microscope lens. 

Full disclosure: my mother is bipolar and one of my brothers suffers from a severe anxiety disorder. They've both been put on various meds over the years to try to treat their symptoms. While nothing has worked perfectly, they're both 100% better off now than they were before they started seeking help. And they are both active and faithful LDS. 

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For as many times as we've been on this merry-go-round with yjacket, I really hope that no one is still getting genuinely upset at the opinion of one man who is even less versed in mental health and its treatments than the practitioners he hates so much. 

I am curious though, yjacket. There's a question I've asked in other threads that you've repeatedly ignored, and another I'd like to add:

1. Do you think the Brethren, specifically Elder Holland and specifically in his "Like a Broken Vessel" talk, are either lying or misled?

2. Why is this so very important to you that you militantly argue the point with such reckless willingness to hurt and damage people who are already hurting? What is the payoff for you? 

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4 hours ago, anatess2 said:

It's not settled science so it must be voodoo and there must not be a chemical imbalance. 

It's like talking to brick walls. Give me 1; all I ask for is 1 documented, indisputable evidence of a chemical imbalance. I just want one, that's it.

I don't want theories, I don't want "experts believe", I just want one article that tells me exactly what a "chemical imbalance" is, how to measure it, how to quantify it, how to test for it, etc.

The way psychology works today is the following.  You go to the doctor complaining your stomach hurts.  The doctor talks to you a lot, asks you how it hurts, when it hurts, the kind of hurt it has, etc.  You answer a 5 page surveys about the type of pain you have, questions as detailed as "do you feel the pain when you eat?" "is it a dull pain?" "do you feel the pain when you go to the bathroom?"

The doctor then makes this magically claim with an air of superiority . . . "well you see, you have something we call 'cancer'".  From everything you have described to us, we believe it is a specific type of cancer called stomach cancer.  And you see this cancer is caused because their are neuro-receptors inside your stomach that don't like food.  Your body makes too much of this stomach-neuro-receptors.  Now to prevent this from happening, I'm going to give you a prescription for a drug called stomo-percolatcet.  This will take away the pain.  You go to the pharmacy, buy this drug and take it . . .it works for 2 weeks, but gives you nasty side effects (you're bloated, you can't go to the bathroom right, etc.).  Doc, says . .. hmm well that's interesting, I guess your body's stomo-neuro-receptors just don't work properly for this drug, I'll give you a proscription for stomo-phenotenal, that will do the trick!  Rise, lather, repeat until you find a drug that "does the trick".

Mind you nowhere in this process has the doctor, physically inspected you, he hasn't touched your stomach, felt it, he hasn't taken any blood tests to confirm that your body has too much of stomo-neuro-receptors.  The only tests he has run are entirely subjective tests, based upon your perceived reality of whether it hurts or not.  In other words, there is absolutely no objective way for a third party to actually measure or test this stomo-neuro-receptor imbalance.  It is entirely detected based upon how you feel.

In the physical realm, we would all recognize this as just complete crap and voodoo; i.e. the doctor has no clue as to what he is doing and is just doing something to make you feel better . . .whether or not it actually works is another question.

Look, if taking xyz drug makes you feel better . . .great, go for it. If a placebo makes you feel better, do it; if prayer helps you great, do it.

Simply don't kid yourself into believing that the pyscologist has any clue as to what is really going on.

Again, just one article; please just one article telling me how to actually measure a "chemical imbalance".  

At one point in the future, we may actually discover a true chemical imbalance, until then all it is is simply a mental construct (i.e. a made-up imaginary thing) to explain the unexplained.

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7 minutes ago, Eowyn said:

For as many times as we've been on this merry-go-round with yjacket, I really hope that no one is still getting genuinely upset at the opinion of one man who is even less versed in mental health and its treatments than the practitioners he hates so much. 

I am curious though, yjacket. There's a question I've asked in other threads that you've repeatedly ignored, and another I'd like to add:

1. Do you think the Brethren, specifically Elder Holland and specifically in his "Like a Broken Vessel" talk, are either lying or misled?

2. Why is this so very important to you that you militantly argue the point with such reckless willingness to hurt and damage people who are already hurting? What is the payoff for you? 

#1), there is nothing in his talk that I disagree with.  There is nothing in his talk that gives validity to the theory of chemical imbalances. He says "We sense the complexity of such matters when we hear professionals speak of neuroses and psychoses, of genetic predispositions and chromosome defects, of bipolarity, paranoia, and schizophrenia. ".  No where in the talk does he mention drugs or medication.  In fact, in the above sentence, he admits that these things are very complex.  I agree, they are complex. And for most people who have not studied the issues, they will accept whatever the experts say . . .because that's why they are experts, right?

#2)  You are subscribing to me intent to hurt and damage where there is not intent to hurt or damage.  I understand the truth can be very hard to hear; it's like when a kid first learns there is no Santa Claus, they can be devastated.  

Either I'm right or I'm wrong.  If I'm wrong, then I gladly welcome anyone to demonstrate so by the use of statistics, facts, studies, measurable data, etc.  Show me what a chemical imbalance is.  Show me what test I can take to measure my own chemical imbalance (besides my own self-assessment-I need objective, repeatable, verifiable, 3rd party testing-not just based on how I feel that day)?  If I'm wrong, great.  No problem for me.

But what if I'm right?  What if the belief in a chemical imbalance (and the state of it's current knowledge) is no better than just faith.  Why is it that people will put more faith in the modern constructs of psychology, rather than faith in God.

Maybe society as a whole has been lead down a very evil path? I'm supposed to put my trust in psychology, and the grand DSM?  You mean the DSM that at one point classified homosexuality as a mental disorder, that classified transgender as a mental disorder, but then decided it wasn't.  You mean the DSM where the only reason they took out homosexuality as a mental disorder was simply b/c of political winds and culture changed and they voted to take it out . . .no science, no data, just a vote. The profession that would classify Joseph Smith as a psychotic.  Let's see a man who sees visions, hears voices, believes God talks to him? He is either delusional, psychotic, manic-depressent, or a pyscopath.

I'm supposed to put my trust in that profession, that they know how to make me whole?  Nope, I don't think so, not for one second.If someone wants to take pills and it works for them-great.  Some people use talk therapy, some people use a dog, or a hobby, or whatever.  
"If things continue to be debilitating, seek the advice of reputable people with certified training, professional skills, and good values. Be honest with them about your history and your struggles. Prayerfully and responsibly consider the counsel they give and the solutions they prescribe."

Elder Holland said the above.  I'm good with the above; before one should start taking some random drug, one should do the research, find the double-blind studies that show actual results.

Eowyn, you may not know me personally.  But this I can guarantee. I'm not going to tell you how, where or why. I have been through Hell in my life. I have seen what the powers of Hell and Damnation are; I know what an afflicted mind, body and spirit is, I know what it's like to become acquainted with the vastness and the depths of the pits of despair. I also know of the Power of God.  That He is the Master and Ruler over all.  He can heal the broken spirit.  His Power, Majesty and glory are greater than any mental anguish.

"Though we may feel we are “like a broken vessel,” as the Psalmist says,10 we must remember, that vessel is in the hands of the divine potter."  I agree fully with Elder Holland. No where in his talk did he mention drugs, or chemical imbalances.

All I'm saying is that as a society we have set up psychologist and psychology as a god, that it has all the answers, that it knows how to fix our broken spirits.  

And it's false, the emperor has no clothes . . .maybe one day it will get there, but that day is not today. And until that day comes (if it does), my trust, my faith, my heart, my soul, my belief in healing resides in the One who provides True healing.  Jesus Christ.

He has healed me, He has healed those I love. He can heal others.

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Accusing someone who is living their covenants of being depressed because they must not be righteous enough is cruel. Patronizing people who disagree with you is slimy. Assuming that your experience should be everyone's experience is ignorant. Discounting the healing and guidance other people have had from the Spirit that may be different from what you may or may not have needed is arrogant. 

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18 minutes ago, Eowyn said:

Accusing someone who is living their covenants of being depressed because they must not be righteous enough is cruel. Patronizing people who disagree with you is slimy. Assuming that your experience should be everyone's experience is ignorant. Discounting the healing and guidance other people have had from the Spirit that may be different from what you may or may not have needed is arrogant. 

What in the world are you talking about?

What part of "if taking a pill helps you, do it" do you not understand? What part of  "Saying the solutions are found in the gospel is different than saying you are a "bad person" b/c you deal with depression and "only if you were more righteous" it would all go away"

Eowyn, what is your deal? You are proscribing viewpoints and words to me that I didn't say or intend.  Why are you only hearing and taking my words to mean what you want them to mean, instead of trying to understand what I'm saying.

Again, my point has been throughout this entire thread; psychology's view that depression is caused by a "chemical imbalance" is completely unfounded has no basis in reality and is a mental construct (i.e. a made-up fantasy that may at some point in the future be accurate or it may not be) to describe what they think is going on but as for now is totally false.  Again, prove me wrong (how many times to I have to say it).

If God leads you to take a pill and it helps you-great, I have no qualms at all, God lead you to something that works for you. . awesome! My point is that the underlying basis of psychology is false. God can absolutely use incorrect things to help people out-why wouldn't He.  If it works for you great-just like if someone finds healing in acupuncture, electro-therapy, or whatever else, awesome.

People will rail against acupuncture, b/c it doesn't pass the double-blind study of scientific proof and no one cares; yet saying the same thing about mental health professional drugs and it's philosophy that lie in as similar vein and oh crap-you've just touched the third rail of electricity and you'd think you killed someone's grandmother.  "Why do you want to hurt people" that's like asking "When did you stop beating your wife?"  Really, you are going to go with that question and then claim I'm being arrogant, self-righteous, ignorant, etc. 

You completely dismissed my account of my healing. You ignored it, dismissed it and then threw it back in my face. Just look in the mirror.

There is a scripture that comes to mind about this . . .  

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I'm sorry but that was a really beautiful post @yjacket. I do believe there are psychological disorders, extreme disorders that it would be cruel to expect someone to rely entirely on the Lord for and not seek help and treatment. A lot of those extreme cases show up physically in the brain and can be tested for, like schozophrenia. I do think there is a lack of faith present when you have the mindset, "the Lord cannot help me with this." He created the world and gave Moses the power to part the red sea. But no, your depression or anxiety disorder is too much for Him. 

I think there is value in prayerful study before a therapist even signs a prescription pad. We are told to take charge of our own study before seeking answers from Him, to come to Him with information we have gathered. I think assuming people are too stupid to take charge and responsibility for what goes into their bodies is ludicrous and yjackets counsel to research and find out about proposed drugs is a sound one. I think it is easier to give that power away, to appeal to those who are not actually interested in our well being but only in staying relevant and in control. I also think the emotional responses to yjacket rather than actually addressing what he is saying, is telling about how much some have invested in being told by someone "its not your fault, theres nothing you can do about it, let me take care of you." I

if you have studied the drugs your psychiatrist has suggested, found studies for them, researched the side effects for yourself, and gotten a physical to make sure everything else about you is ok, and you pray and the Holy Ghost prompts you to take that medication, then do it. You have been directed by who really matters. But I definitely think those steps should be taken. About everything, really. 

How many times does yjacket have to repeat that? Prayerful study. Prayerful study. Holy Ghost prompting. Holy Ghost prompting. If the drugs are what you need, why would the being who knows everything about you not tell you to do that? Why is telling people to research and pray about this harmful or patronizing? Hes not assuming those who have posted havent done those things. Hes saying thats what should be happening. 

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9 minutes ago, a mustard seed said:

I do believe there are psychological disorders, extreme disorders that it would be cruel to expect someone to rely entirely on the Lord for and not seek help and treatment. A lot of those extreme cases show up physically in the brain and can be tested for, like schozophrenia.

Totally agree, there are things that do show up and there are extreme cases like multiple personality disorders, schizophrenia, etc. Where brain scans will show there is something totally different going on. The question then becomes did the brain inherently form that way, i.e. like a crooked nose? or was it developed that way?  

For example, how we think and what we do will actively change the brain.  We activate different portions of the brain depending on how we act, think, behave. So did the brain just naturally develop that way, or did it become that way?  If it became that way, how and why did it become that way; is there a way to reverse the process to literally change the brains patterns to develop into something different. If it didn't become that way and was pre-disposed like a crooked nose, is there a way to make it to where it doesn't become pre-disposed that way.

There is so, so much that we don't know, as a scientist, as a researcher, it is a travesty that we just paper over the lack of knowledge with weasel words like "chemical imbalance" 

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18 minutes ago, pam said:

Some of you are starting to sound like Scientologists. :P

I have been DYING to make a scientology joke in this thread! I was worried it would get me in trouble though.

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2 minutes ago, DoctorLemon said:

I have been DYING to make a scientology joke in this thread! I was worried it would get me in trouble though.

GMTA

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On 6/7/2017 at 1:05 PM, pam said:

Yeah I would have to totally disagree with the comment about never being depressed if you obey gospel principles.  

 

Speaking specifically of depression, I compare it to a car (body) getting really bad gas mileage. Sometimes, it's just a matter of no gas, or bad gas in the tank. Relatively easy fix of going and getting more gas or maybe a fuel additive (eating healthier, exercising more, changing your perspective, etc.). Sometimes, though, the cause is a leak in the fuel tank. That kind of fix requires a professional and significantly more resources. Telling someone to "choose happiness" (the nondenominational equivalent of obeying gospel principles) when their body is physically depressed is like telling someone with a leak in their fuel tank to just get more gas.

There are still a lot of advancements that need to be made in the study of mental health and treatments of mental illnesses. I hope we get there. I think we're making good progress.

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6 hours ago, seashmore said:

There are still a lot of advancements that need to be made in the study of mental health and treatments of mental illnesses. I hope we get there. I think we're making good progress.

What progress? Please point me to the progress.  Great we give people drugs that make them happy (but that isn't even really verified in double-blind studies).  We still have no idea what the underlying reasons are for it.  That's progress?  Believing in a paradigm that isn't proven (and may never be proven, i.e. chemical imbalances) is progress?  

How is a "professional" going to fix a problem that they don't even know what the problem is?  It's not a matter of "there is no gas in the tank and you have a leaky tank".  It's a "you're car won't start, and we don't know why your car won't start", but we think it's something related to a chemical imbalance in your car (i.e. not having enough gas). "Do you have enough gas in your tank? Oh you filled it up 5 min. ago? Hmm, do you have a leaky tank?  Here take this additive and see if that will make the car start? Oh it didn't, well did you check your spark plugs? Here take these spark plugs and replace them? Oh that didn't work? Maybe you have it in park?  Ah see you mashed the gas when you turned the ignition . . .that was your problem?  Oh well now your car starts, but now when you try to steer it, it wants to veer into brick walls . .. well that's just a side-effect of getting your car started.  Next!" 

Again, they don't have a clue.  Can what they do help? Sure, can therapy, CBT, etc. help . ..absolutely.  Do they know how to fix the broken car . . .not a chance-they are just trying something until it hits.

If that is progress, like I've said before mental health industry is like the 1700s and blood-letting.

Edited by yjacket
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15 hours ago, yjacket said:

It's like talking to brick walls. Give me 1; all I ask for is 1 documented, indisputable evidence of a chemical imbalance. I just want one, that's it.

 

Yes, it's talking to brick walls.  YOUR WALL.  Just because it hasn't been identified doesn't mean it doesn't exist.  It is stupid to be so bricky about this when IT IS JUST AS UNHELPFUL AS Psychiatrists giving Ritalin to misbehaved kids. You need to listen to what I'm saying instead of adding your own extra meanings to what I'm saying.  Somebody posted a youtube video somewhere here recently about a Feminist who went and talked to Men's Rights Activists.  She described the phenomenon completely - the MRA would say one sentence and the Feminist would assign additional meaning to it that the MRA did not say.  That's what you're doing.

Here.  This is first hit on google on chemical imbalance.  This guy's position IS A MORE HELPFUL if not more accurate position than your "extremist" one.  I suggest you learn from it.  I hate talking to you about it because I agree with most of what you're saying.  I hate it because it's that Two Truths and a Lie scenario that Vort just posted about.  You post truths that are important.  Then you nuke it with a lie that is just completely unnecessary to the discussion but is VERY HARMFUL.  Stop saying it doesn't exist.  THAT'S A LIE.  We may find out once the science has matured that it is not a chemical imbalance but... I don't know... Satanic possession or something.  Or we may find out it IS a chemical imbalance.  What I know from my personal study of myself is that anger is triggered by stimulus and causes the brain to release certain chemicals to cause physiological change that manifests into what we describe as anger - increased blood flow, fight-or-flight brain activities, etc  All these reactions are a result of chemical reactions in the brain.  That part is broken.  The physiological change does not match the stimulus - hence the chemical reaction is out of balance.  What chemical exactly - when you find out which set of chemicals cause the physiological changes that we describe as anger, let me know.

Best pull quote from the article I linked:

" The term “chemical imbalance” is short-hand used by laypersons to describe what we can’t scientifically explain. We know something is awry in someone’s brain when he/she shows symptoms of bipolar disorder, schizophrenia or severe and persistent depression. We know chemicals often can help alleviate these symptoms. Ergo, we conclude the symptoms are the result of a “chemical imbalance” when the truth is that we don’t really know what is happening, only that something is. "

Now, tell me - how is it helpful to spew the DEFINITIVE that it is not a chemical imbalance?  You think if you keep saying that, that psychiatrists will stop pushing Ritalin to misbehaved kids?  No, it's simply putting people who are trying to understand their own bodies in a difficult position of having to fight you off as a Religious Nutcase impeding the scientific studies currently being embarked on.  So please stop making it harder on us.  I'd say the exact same thing to Climate Deniers.  They need to get off the Extremist position of Denial and be on the more truthful, and helpful, position of Climate Skepticism.  That is the exact role of Science - skepticism, not consensus or denial or "settled".

 

Edited by anatess2
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31 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

" The term “chemical imbalance” is short-hand used by laypersons to describe what we can’t scientifically explain. ..... Ergo, we conclude the symptoms are the result of a “chemical imbalance” when the truth is that we don’t really know what is happening, only that something is. "

?? You claim I have an extremist position, yet everything you say points exactly in my direction.

"when the truth is that we don't really know what is happening". . ."only that something is" (actually only that you think something is physically happening-but you just admit, we can't explain it and we don't know).

How much more plain can it get.  Chemical imbalance is a made-up mental construct!!! They think it is caused by some problems in the brain. . .i.e. it is a theory, a construct, not grounded in science or fact.  

How is the world does that position hold more validity than the idea the evil spirits posses people?  What do you think Christ was doing when he was casting out devils?  There might have been a million people in his immediate area, yet no one was in today's parlance "mentally ill"?  No they just had spirits and devils afflict them.

That is my point, psychology (this branch anyways) is more of a religion based upon faith than actual science.  What else is it?  I prayed for God to help me find a job and I did.  Something happened, I don't know exactly what happened, only that it did.  Faith in psychology is just as much a false faith as it is faith in God.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/charting-the-depths/201007/the-serotonin-theory-depression-is-collapsing

From the horse's mouth.  "Serotonin Theory of depression collapsing."

http://www.neuropsychotherapist.com/is-the-low-serotonin-theory-of-depression-wrong/

"It is possible that serotonin is not the key to depression, and may be quite a distal factor in the causal pathway for depression. Serotonin is likely an important part of regulating energetically expensive states like depression (i.e. depressed states being high serotonin phenomena), but the solution for depression is probably not a simple matter of artificially tipping the balance of serotonin across the entire system."

I can't find it but there was an article by a major psycologist (who pioneered seratonin research) who admits that he was wrong, that actually taking these drugs causes worse symptoms overall . . i.e. people get addicted to them and can't get off them b/c they destroy the brain's natural functional ability.  In other words, the very act of taking one of these drugs permanently changes the brains functions and makes it harder and harder to function without the drug itself. 

Man alive, people just want to stick their head in the sand.  They don't know. Repeat it, repeat it, repeat it.  Psychologists don't know why and they don't know how to fix it.  They flipping admit it.  But people refuse to believe it.

They stick their heads in the sand and make-believe in some fantasy land that going to a someone who studied for 6 years and is called a "doctor" in a white jacket has all the answers to something so complicated as the Spirit, Body and Mind.

Which is why, yes you will find just as good of answers in the Gospel of Jesus Christ as you will in some dude in a white jacket that claims you have some made-up mental construct called a "chemical imbalance".  He might as well say you are influenced by an evil spirit.

But I completely understand that it makes people feel better to go to a doctor who tells them they have xyz and to take abc and it will make them feel better.  From a pure psychological perspective, it makes people feel good when they have someone in a position of authority (i.e. a doctor) tell them what they have and proscribe something to "fix" it-especially when they have no idea what is going on within themselves.  So if it works for you, great, I have no problem with it.

Edited by yjacket
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44 minutes ago, yjacket said:

?? You claim I have an extremist position, yet everything you say points exactly in my direction.

"when the truth is that we don't really know what is happening". . ."only that something is" (actually only that you think something is physically happening-but you just admit, we can't explain it and we don't know).

 

Like I told you.  I agree with a lot of what you're saying.  But saying Psychiatry/Neuro-science is voodoo science and that there's no such thing as chemical imbalance IS A LIE.  Not knowing does not mean it doesn't exist.  I'm sure you've said that plenty of times to atheists.  The truth is - we're still trying to figure it out THROUGH THE SAME SCIENCES THAT YOU ESPOUSE AS VOODOO.

Okay, I'm done with this argument.  I hate it.  You are an EXTREMIST in this discussion and it is NOT HELPFUL.  Nay.  I say IT IS HARMFUL.  So, hopefully you'll stop it.  Well, at least, start listening to what I'm saying.  But yeah, after all our pow-wows back and forth on this one, I highly doubt it.  Pride is really something, isn't it?

Since you didn't read the short article I posted, I'll give you another pull quote:

" Dr. Kandel acknowledged that science simply hasn’t yet been able to discover the “biological underpinnings” of major mental disorders. But our lack of knowledge doesn’t mean a link doesn’t exist, he said. He asked why we continue to separate the brain from the rest of the body when we think of biological illnesses and genetic links. Why do we accept that they play a role in everything that happens beneath our chin but argue that they can’t be influencing our brains? The real tragedy, Dr. Kandel explained, is that medical research in nearly every other area of the body has moved forward significantly with the exception of our brains. "

Edited by anatess2
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9 minutes ago, DoctorLemon said:

@pam Check this out!  There is a whole museum dedicated to exposing the "evils" of psychiatry.  

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychiatry:_An_Industry_of_Death

(I warned you - I know it is bad, but I can't resist making these kinds of comments when this subject comes up!)

Well that's a museum I will never be visiting.

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