Harassment with being Child-Free


ray13
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2 hours ago, MormonGator said:

You no longer have to ... eat/drink only milk and cookies

Blasphemy!  It's bad enough that we're so accepting of store-bought, mass-produced cookies, but to throw out cookies altogether!?  It's just another sign of the times, the world spiraling into apostasy... <sigh>  When will it ever end?  Woe is me.

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37 minutes ago, zil said:

Blasphemy!  It's bad enough that we're so accepting of store-bought, mass-produced cookies, but to throw out cookies altogether!?  It's just another sign of the times, the world spiraling into apostasy... <sigh>  When will it ever end?  Woe is me.

I'm on here whilst waiting for my cookies to come out of the oven. My grandma's chocolate chip recipe. I would internet-wish you some if I could.

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On 6/19/2017 at 3:49 PM, ray13 said:

My husband and I have decided to be child-free. He has had a vasectomy. We also tend to move fairly frequently (one a year/ every 2 years), which means new wards/meeting new people. Whenever I hit Relief Society I get the  "So how many kids do you have" type questions. I respond with "none. We aren't having kids." or something similar. And I immediately get hit with a sigh, or "you'll change your mind later sweetie". They just don't seem to grasp the fact we don't want kids and we are happy. Once people get to know me and they pursue more, I tell them No we are sure. My husband got a vasecotmy. We won't be changing our mind. We have lost friends over this because we are going against the church. 

I have never liked kids and never wanted one. 

Anybody else going through something similar or can offer words of encouragement / advice on how to deal with it. 

It got so bad in my last ward that whenever family came up in class and they started talking about children/grandchildren a lot of the older women would stare at me and start whispering and I could hear my name.    My husband doesn't have the same issue. They ask about his kids and he says "No. we arent having kids" and the elders class is like ok whatever. He doesn't get any of the harrassment I do so he doesn't understand so I can't really talk to him about it. He thinks Im over-reacting. 

I am in your corner 100% but may I offer my perspective about having a child?

1) Growth. Whether you adopt or have one of your own, you may never experience what a mother/father experiences. You may never get the full picture in understanding what your mom and dad went through to raise you. When I got married I had some resentment toward my parents that stemmed from my childhood, I said to myself I will never be the bum that my father was, every year that passed in my marriage and having our own kids I realized that my dad was not that bad of a guy after all. Now 15yrs into my marriage and I love that guy with all my heart, no more resentments or judgements toward him. Why? because all the crap that me and my siblings put him through, my kids and wife are doing the same to me. lol

2) There is power in numbers. We are blessed in the LDS church to be organized into local wards where as a small community we can vibrate spiritually together on heavenly frequency's during our prayer and worship, the ward is our family. However, in a more intimate setting, the walls within your own home there is opportunity to share spiritual energy with those you are biologically/emotionally/intimately attached to, this becomes even more powerful. I can relate two experiences in the past 2 years where I should have been seriously hurt or even dead in an accident. What saved me and prevented me from even getting a scratch in both situations was specifically the prayers of my 3 little children and wife, it would be too long to explain but trust me on that.

My life journey may not be the same as yours or anyone else. Just thought Id share.

Edited by priesthoodpower
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21 hours ago, ray13 said:

So the fact we decided not to reproduce makes us going against the church?

So the church would encourage us to reproduce even though there is a 90% chance our children will get a disease

that will kill them before they reach 5 years of age?

I don't think the church would encourage a family going through that heartbreak.

So, this thread is dead right?

I'll answer your questions:

1. Yes

2. Your original post did not outline this as the reason, so it is invalid as a response to my response (that is my response and answer).  

Since you have decided to change the parameters of your original posting, none of your following posts will be valid.  If you want to start a new thread asking the same question, and stating truthfully all of the facts, then I would encourage you to do so.  You would likely get significantly different answers.......

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On 6/19/2017 at 10:38 PM, Just_A_Guy said:

I don't know how to make it hurt any less; but as for a snappy retort ripped from today's headlines, may I suggest you try the line--"Actually, I'm gay"? :satan:

I can speak from experience here. When the ward and stake leadership believe you are gay, you get a lot fewer questions about everything.

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On 6/20/2017 at 0:33 PM, Just_A_Guy said:

"Ah, a securities trader!

My kind put your kind in prison, you know . . ."

 "I considered law school and I could have gotten in anywhere I wanted..."

"Really?  Awww, afraid of the bar exam?"

On 6/20/2017 at 0:17 PM, DoctorLemon said:

I just wish people would use some sense when talking with others sometimes and avoid painful topics.

I remember, right out of law school, I went through a period of unemployment.  I remember sitting in Elders' Quorum one day during this time period.  This guy sits down next to me and is like, "Are you new here?"  (No, I had been in the ward for five years at this point).  He asks, "what do you do for a living?"  I explained I just took the bar exam and was looking for a job.  He then says, "Well, I considered law school and I could have gotten in anywhere I wanted, but I did my research and found that there just aren't any jobs to be had and lots of student debt.  So, I went and got an MBA instead, and now I am making six figures."  I am not making this up - this is what he said to me, knowing full well I was unemployed.  For all of you Jane Austen fans, it was very Mr. Collins of him.

In retrospect, I should have offered him a medal then and there for his flawless life choices.  

People, please think before you open your mouths. . . 

Psychologically speaking, this guy sounds very insecure. It seems to me that he really wanted to be a lawyer and he regrets it. I don't buy the rest. People tend to say things like that to rationalize choices they wish they didn't take in order to feel better about themselves.

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On 6/20/2017 at 4:45 PM, priesthoodpower said:

In my ward I am noticing more people with different personal point of views on life being more outspoken on the pulpit during fast and testimony meeting and/or assigned talks. Its so refreshing to know that we do not all fit in one box.

I wonder how this is superior to, or different from, the guy who offers his "testimony" of Rush Limbaugh or Donald Trump.

Actually, of the two, I think I prefer the Trumpster (where "prefer" means that I find him somewhat less repugnant). In most cases, this guy is simply clueless and socially inept, blundering about foolishly and embarrassing himself without even realizing it as he tries to explain his ideas of gospel-related topics in a sociopolitical framework that he wrongly assumes everyone shares. Offensive? Sure. But there is something relatable about it. I have been that idiot more than once in my adult life, and I'll bet you $100 that you have, too. Irritating as this particular foolishness is, I find it easier to stomach than the sanctimony of the guy who takes it upon himself to scold and re-educate the benighted faux "Saints" who are too blind, stupid, or (probably) dishonest to see that any true Christian would vote Democrat and support Socialist principles, or whatever nonsense their particular lecture promotes.

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On 6/20/2017 at 2:17 PM, DoctorLemon said:

I just wish people would use some sense when talking with others sometimes and avoid painful topics.

https://wheatandtares.org/2015/04/24/mormons-suck-at-empathy/

The main difference is that most people outside the Church seem to understand they're not good at it and just let the topic drop, or find someone who has been there and thus can be inherently empathetic.

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55 minutes ago, NightSG said:

https://wheatandtares.org/2015/04/24/mormons-suck-at-empathy/

The main difference is that most people outside the Church seem to understand they're not good at it and just let the topic drop, or find someone who has been there and thus can be inherently empathetic.

Well, Mormons consider themselves under obligation to develop empathy; which necessitates a trial-and-error process that, as you say, non-Mormons are free to eschew.  

But that blundering process we go through, in my experience, does represent a real and sincere emotional investment in the welfare of others.  And (random observation; not related to anything that's happened in this thread, but something that just occurred to me)--this "compassion fatigue" is probably a lot of why Mormons often tend to have a lower tolerance for what they perceive as drama queenery.

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10 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

But that blundering process we go through, in my experience, does represent a real and sincere emotional investment in the welfare of others.

No. A real emotional investment would include paying attention to the effect your words are having and not continuing to make matters worse when it's obvious you aren't helping. 

Frankly, when a lot of LDS folks start in with the half hearted attempts to empathize, I'm often reminded of a scene from Gilligan's Island where Mrs Howell is doing a miserable job of trying to empathize with, I think, Mary Anne over something from her past, and it's obvious she's utterly incapable of understanding what it's like, even after having been on the island for some time. 

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10 minutes ago, NightSG said:

No. A real emotional investment would include paying attention to the effect your words are having and not continuing to make matters worse when it's obvious you aren't helping. 

Frankly, when a lot of LDS folks start in with the half hearted attempts to empathize, I'm often reminded of a scene from Gilligan's Island where Mrs Howell is doing a miserable job of trying to empathize with, I think, Mary Anne over something from her past, and it's obvious she's utterly incapable of understanding what it's like, even after having been on the island for some time. 

Your superior virtue, morality, and empathy--as reflected in your ability to tell us what the mass of Mormon cretins are really thinking and feeling--are hereby duly noted.

Edited by Just_A_Guy
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I went on an LDS mission, however, at times, when people ask, I will tell them that I served a different sort of mission (for work, actually) across the world.  We didn't do anything with what the LDS would call missionary work, instead doing other things like buildings and such.  I'm an odd sort and find it funny to see their reactions at times when they think I'm skirting the question (which I am) because I didn't serve an LDS mission (though I DID serve an LDS mission) and instead did that.  In effect, I'm neutralizing their arena of questioning (though for the wrong reasons in this case, I know what they are asking, but as they only say mission, I'm doing it for my own depraved entertainment at their cost...though some may never know it).

In likewise, if I had chosen not to have children, and they asked me about it, I'd simply tell them..."We are not able to have children" (and with your husband having a vasectomy, that would be true I think).  "This is not really a topic I enjoy discussing...unless you want to tell me all about your deep personal medical problems involving your privates, inner guts, and other issues".  At that point, either they'll jump to a conclusion (most likely), stop talking and never discuss it again in deep embarrassment, OR...they'll give you a run down on their entire medical history.

If the last one happens, thank them for their very blatant statements, but tell them, it was only being snarky, that you really are NOT as comfortable as they are sharing deep personal items with a stranger (which could also be true).

I had a mother that did NOT like children.  I am grateful I was born...but I will say, in many instances if a woman does NOT like children and does not WANT children, it should be her choice.  She should feel no pressure to have children in that instance because it could turn out to be a very bad thing for some children.  There are times it is better NOT to have children when they are unwanted, then to force oneself to have children in an unwanted situation.

Edited by JohnsonJones
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Find a singleton. As an unmarried person, I would love to have a friend in the ward who also didn't have children and got awkward stares during family themed lessons.

On June 22, 2017 at 5:31 PM, JohnsonJones said:

I went on an LDS mission, however, at times, when people ask, I will tell them that I served a different sort of mission (for work, actually) across the world.  We didn't do anything with what the LDS would call missionary work, instead doing other things like buildings and such.  I'm an odd sort and find it funny to see their reactions at times when they think I'm skirting the question (which I am) because I didn't serve an LDS mission (though I DID serve an LDS mission) and instead did that.  In effect, I'm neutralizing their arena of questioning (though for the wrong reasons in this case, I know what they are asking, but as they only say mission, I'm doing it for my own depraved entertainment at their cost...though some may never know it).

In likewise, if I had chosen not to have children, and they asked me about it, I'd simply tell them..."We are not able to have children" (and with your husband having a vasectomy, that would be true I think).  "This is not really a topic I enjoy discussing."

I like this advice. Give them an answer without answering the question. 

I also like quoting The Princess Bride. Perhaps do some resarch and find scriptural/prominent LDS figures who did not have children. "No, but neither did Eliza R. Snow."

Also, if you're looking for friends to sit with the lessons on raising righteous families, seek out a single sister.

Edited by seashmore
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On 6/22/2017 at 4:31 PM, JohnsonJones said:

"This is not really a topic I enjoy discussing...". 

Of course, this is the only real answer that etiquette may dictate we give.  It's honest, transparent, polite, nonjudgmental, and righteous.  It gives the well-meaning an opportunity to politely back out.  It gives the gossipy and unrighteously judgmental an opportunity to come into the light and be seen by all.

The only problem with this answer, is it is not the most fun.

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On 6/21/2017 at 6:25 PM, Suzie said:

 "I considered law school and I could have gotten in anywhere I wanted..."

"Really?  Awww, afraid of the bar exam?"

Reminds me of the following meme I once saw:

Modern art = "Even could have done that!" + "But, you didn't."

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20 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Wondering how many of the suggestions given truly and humbly take into consideration how Christ would respond.

 

17 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

It's good to remember Christ responded once with violence, knocking over tables, running people off with a whip.

It's also good to remember that the folks receiving that response, sure the heck weren't the people currently ticking you off.

 

15 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

Also, that Jesus could be almost acidly sarcastic at times.

Point...being........missed.....

 

I believe, fwiw, that Christ ran people from the temple twice. (Though the use of the whip is only mentioned at one of them).

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Guest MormonGator
On 6/24/2017 at 10:15 PM, seashmore said:

Find a singleton. As an unmarried person, I would love to have a friend in the ward who also didn't have children and got awkward stares during family themed lessons.

I'm sorry you have to deal with this. 

I think a sad life truth that we have to accept is that you can ignore what others say but you can't stop them from saying it/staring at you/etc. Some people lack basic manners and class and will say things, stare at you, etc and all you can do is rise above it. 

 

Edited by MormonGator
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It truly is no one's business. But, there are ways to avoid the judgements in the first place. For example, I would never state to anyone in my ward "I have decided to not obey [insert any commandment] ". If I told Ward members I wasn't going to obey a certain commandment, I have no one to blame but myself for any "looks" I would get when said commandment was discussed in class or sacrament meeting.  The way the original post was worded, it sounded as if "I have chosen to disobey the commandment to multiply and replenish the earth". There was no additional info given that there were health reasons. If the way it is brought up to Ward members is similar to the original post, then I wouldn't be surprised at the consequences of said statement. But, if there are health concerns, and stated to the members, in my experience, most members are sympathetic to the individuals concerned.

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11 hours ago, MormonGator said:

I'm sorry you have to deal with this. 

I think a sad life truth that we have to accept is that you can ignore what others say but you can't stop them from saying it/staring at you/etc. Some people lack basic manners and class and will say things, stare at you, etc and all you can do is rise above it. 

 

I choose to interpret most of the stares as compassionate. I've only felt uncomfortable once, and it was during Sunday school following branch conference. The wife of the counselor teaching on how to keep sacred things sacred kept making comments about the sacredness of pregnancy and childbirth. It finally took me commenting that life remains sacred once it's outside of the womb.

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 6/20/2017 at 8:29 AM, zil said:

Why does an explanation need to go with?  Why not simply, "none".  The end.  If they pursue it, something like, "Thank you for your concern, but this is a personal matter."  To say something more personal (like that you don't like / want children) is to invite more personal inquiry.  If you want to avoid personal inquiry, don't say anything personal.

Alternately, there's the fine art of diversion:

Nosy-Sister: "How many children do you have?"

You: "None.  How about you?"

Nosy-Sister: "We have 6.34. Why don't you have children?" (aside: how anyone can ask that is beyond me)

You: (ignoring her question entirely) "Oh what are their names, ages, interests, schools, IQs?  Which one is the best?  Which one can't do anything right to save his life?  Did you ever leave one behind at the gas station?  I bet it would be really hard for witness protection to hide a family that large.  You do avoid witnessing organized crime, don't you?"

Nosy-Sister: [nigh on eternal gushing about her children; or left speechless by the organized crime question]

You: "Excuse me, I need to find the lady's room."

 

If I could "like" this about 20 times I would.

 

I was also thinking;  Just say "none" and don't add the 'we aren't having kids'.   Just "none" with a smile is sufficient.  Let them think or take it how they wish.  :)

 

 

 

 

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