Garment Concerns/Questions

[felicityswims]

I'm an endowed member, but I don't wear my garments all day and all night. Technically, I'm not breaking any rules, because the endowment ceremony literally only says "wear them throughout your life." I wear shoes throughout my life, too, but not all the time! I wear glasses throughout my life, but not all the time! So why do the garments need to be worn 24/7? They're supposed to be sacred, a reminder of the covenants we made, but we wear them like normal underwear, so how are they special anymore? They're not. I wear mine on Sundays and days when I need the extra strength. That's what makes them special to me, I follow the rules to "wear them throughout my life," but people think I'm wrong and that I need to wear them 24/7. Even the temple recommend questions ask: "Do you keep the covenants that you made in the temple? Do you wear the garment both night and day as instructed in the endowment and in accordance with the covenant you made in the temple?" The endowment instructions don't tell me to wear them day and night! What do you think?

Edited June 22, 2017 by felicityswims

[The Folk Prophet]

Ah technicalities. The path to true salvation.

[felicityswims]

Just now, The Folk Prophet said:

Ah technicalities. The path to true salvation.

Very helpful, I truly appreciate it. This isn't about technicalities, it's about the fact that I was told to wear them throughout my life and that's what I do, but people seem to hate me for it. I wear them when I need to feel close to Heavenly Father. I've tried wearing them all the time, and doing so made me hate them. If I hate them, what kind of relationship is that giving me with God?

[Just_A_Guy]

10 minutes ago, felicityswims said:

Very helpful, I truly appreciate it. This isn't about technicalities, it's about the fact that I was told to wear them throughout my life and that's what I do, but people seem to hate me for it. I wear them when I need to feel close to Heavenly Father. I've tried wearing them all the time, and doing so made me hate them. If I hate them, what kind of relationship is that giving me with God?

Have you tried choosing not to hate them?  I mean, I realize there are some inconveniences with wearing the garment--sometimes significant ones depending on climate, skin conditions, fashion options, etc--but hate is an awfully strong word.

I assume you're familiar with Elder Carlos Asay's article on the garment from some years back, which is still often cited in these sorts of discussions.  Assuming that to be the case, I say this with all the love and respect possible for a random co-traveler in Christ whom I only just now met on the internet:  you know darned well what the counsel means.  Follow it, or not; but don't sully your integrity by pretending that the Church means something other than what it has repeatedly said it means.

Edited June 22, 2017 by Just_A_Guy

[mdfxdb]

12 minutes ago, felicityswims said:

I'm an endowed member, but I don't wear my garments all day and all night. Technically, I'm not breaking any rules, because the endowment ceremony literally only says "wear them throughout your life." I wear shoes throughout my life, too, but not all the time! I wear glasses throughout my life, but not all the time! So why do the garments need to be worn 24/7? They're supposed to be sacred, a reminder of the covenants we made, but we wear them like normal underwear, so how are they special anymore? They're not. I wear mine on Sundays and days when I need the extra strength. That's what makes them special to me, I follow the rules to "wear them throughout my life," but people think I'm wrong and that I need to wear them 24/7. Even the temple recommend questions ask: "Do you keep the covenants that you made in the temple? Do you wear the garment both night and day as instructed in the endowment and in accordance with the covenant you made in the temple?" The endowment instructions don't tell me to wear them day and night! What do you think?

I think you might have a comprehension problem.  How is the commitment to wear them night and day any different than a commitment to wear them day and night?

We do wear them like regular underwear.  In what way to wear them would make them special?  Think about the endowment, and the symbolism of the markings.  These are to be CONSTANT reminders to us, not just when we need a little pick me up.  

Perhaps your bishop and stake president didn't explain the wearing of the garment?  The 3 S rule?

 

[Guest MormonGator]

9 minutes ago, felicityswims said:

Very helpful, I truly appreciate it. This isn't about technicalities, it's about the fact that I was told to wear them throughout my life and that's what I do, but people seem to hate me for it. I wear them when I need to feel close to Heavenly Father. I've tried wearing them all the time, and doing so made me hate them. If I hate them, what kind of relationship is that giving me with God?

I'm so sorry you are dealing with this. 

Sometimes people misunderstand others here on the forum. I'm sure no one hates you and if they do, shame on them. 

It's very hard sometimes to do what the Lord asks us to to do. I'm sure that all He cares about is that you try. 

[zil]

Welcome to the forums, @felicityswims!

I would recommend that you do any / all of the following:

1) Consider whether the temple recommend interview question can really be in direct contradiction to the temple ceremony.  I submit that it isn't and that this question remembers or clarifies something.

2) Go to the temple and do initiatories.

3) Go to the temple with someone who is going through for the first time so that you can hear the instruction they are given between the initiatory and endowment (which are really all the endowment).

4) Go to the temple and speak with the matron (I'm assuming you're female, but if not, ask to speak to the temple president) and ask them to help you understand.

5) Study the topic.  You will have to go indirect and study and ponder what little we have in scripture which directly relates, and anything indirect; study the words of prophets, especially about the temple.  The Holy Temple by Boyd K. Packer is often recommended.

6) Whatever ideas others on the forums have.

7) Throughout all that, pray for understanding.  Remember that faith precedes the miracle - that is, we obey first and the witness and blessings come second.  Thus, when you have reached the point in all of the above that you are ready to act in faith and humility, inform the Lord of your decision and ask him to increase your testimony and understanding as you willingly obey.  I believe it will come, in time, just as all such witnesses come.

If fit or fabric is an issue, experiment with that to find the ideal sizes, styles, and fabrics for you.

[The Folk Prophet]

15 minutes ago, felicityswims said:

This isn't about technicalities,

It's about you excusing yourself by wording so you don't have to do something that you can't humble yourself enough to abide. That is the very definition of technicality.

15 minutes ago, felicityswims said:

Very helpful, I truly appreciate it.

It actually is helpful if you'd listen and accept. Do you go to church because you're doing the bear minimum of what you have been commanded or do you do so because you love God and your fellow man? Do you keep the word of wisdom at a bare technical minimum because that's what you covenanted to do or do you do your best to treat your body like a temple and respect the gift it is? Do you read a verse of scripture a day because that's fits the bill of daily scripture reading or do you feast upon the scriptures, love the word of God, and treasure the blessing that they are?

The garment is a blessing and a treasure that we should look for reasons to wear, not reasons not to. We should view it as the gift and blessing that it is. If you hate them then you hate God's blessing to you.

15 minutes ago, felicityswims said:

but people seem to hate me for it.

No one hates you for it. Sorrow for you? Yes. Worry for you? Yes. Hope you learn, grow, and humble yourself? Yes. But not hate.

15 minutes ago, felicityswims said:

I wear them when I need to feel close to Heavenly Father. 

When do you not need to feel close to Heavenly Father?

15 minutes ago, felicityswims said:

 I've tried wearing them all the time, and doing so made me hate them. If I hate them, what kind of relationship is that giving me with God?

Seriously...apply this to anything else:

"I tried keeping the word of wisdom but doing so made me hate it. If I hate it what kind of relationship is that giving me with God?"

"I tried going to church but doing so made me hate it. If I hate it what kind of relationship is that giving me with God?"

"I tried going to the temple but doing so made me hate it. If I hate it what kind of relationship is that giving me with God?"

"I tried serving my fellow man but doing so made me hate it. If I hate it what kind of relationship is that giving me with God?"

Isn't it obvious that the key to resolving issues where we hate things from God is to humble ourselves and learn to not hate them rather than to abandon them and stop all over that which God blesses us with?

Edited June 22, 2017 by The Folk Prophet

[Vort]

23 minutes ago, felicityswims said:

people think I'm wrong and that I need to wear them 24/7

The people are right.

2 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

I'm sure that all He cares about is that you try.

I am convinced this is not true. At some point. God himself expects us to do more than just try. We are expected to be perfect (Matthew 5:48; 3 Nephi 12:48), and not merely keep chugging along.

[Guest MormonGator]

4 minutes ago, Vort said:

 We are expected to be perfect 

Well, I'm doomed. 

[Just_A_Guy]

4 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

Well, I'm doomed. 

Well, we didn't want to say nuthin', but . . .

[Vort]

3 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

Well, I'm doomed. 

You and me both, brother.

But I choose to believe that Christ was telling the truth when he said that his grace was sufficient. My puny efforts cannot save me, but I do not gain the grace of Christ, which WILL save me, by excusing my faults and weaknesses or pretending that there's nothing really wrong with them.

[felicityswims]

2 minutes ago, zil said:

7) Throughout all that, pray for understanding.  Remember that faith precedes the miracle - that is, we obey first and the witness and blessings come second.  Thus, when you have reached the point in all of the above that you are ready to act in faith and humility, inform the Lord of your decision and ask him to increase your testimony and understanding as you willingly obey.  I believe it will come, in time, just as all such witnesses come.

If fit or fabric is an issue, experiment with that to find the ideal sizes, styles, and fabrics for you.

 

Thank you for the all the advice, and I want to address number 7: I have prayed for advice. I've prayed about this topic hundreds of times, and I know in my heart that what I am doing is okay in Heavenly Fathers eyes. 

The counsel we receive is open to interpretation, and those of you who have chosen and are happy to wear the garment 24/7 have done so because you feel in your heart that is what you are meant to do. I do not feel the same way, and the Holy Spirit has made it clear to me that my decision is just as right as anyone else's.

[Guest MormonGator]

4 minutes ago, felicityswims said:

Thank you for the all the advice, and I want to address number 7: I have prayed for advice. I've prayed about this topic hundreds of times, and I know in my heart that what I am doing is okay in Heavenly Fathers eyes. 

Don't worry about the big picture OP. Just try a little harder each day. Don't be too hard on yourself and keep trying. You are doing fine. 

[Just_A_Guy]

2 minutes ago, felicityswims said:

Thank you for the all the advice, and I want to address number 7: I have prayed for advice. I've prayed about this topic hundreds of times, and I know in my heart that what I am doing is okay in Heavenly Fathers eyes. 

The counsel we receive is open to interpretation, and those of you who have chosen and are happy to wear the garment 24/7 have done so because you feel in your heart that is what you are meant to do. I do not feel the same way, and the Holy Spirit has made it clear to me that my decision is just as right as anyone else's.

But what if I "know in my heart" that judging you--even hating you--is just peachy with God?  Who are you to tell me I'm in the wrong?

Every now and again, we just plain botch the personal revelation process.  Hence--church standards.

Edited June 22, 2017 by Just_A_Guy

[felicityswims]

Just now, Just_A_Guy said:

But what if I "know in my heart" that judging you--even hating you--is just peachy with God?

Every now and again, we just plain botch the personal revelation process.  Hence--church standards.

If you truly believe we botch the personal revelation process, then that means you believe that the prophets can be wrong, because they receive personal revelation. Which in turn means that what they have said regarding this topic can also be wrong. Ever think about that? Use your brain.

[The Folk Prophet]

10 minutes ago, Vort said:

15 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

I'm sure that all He cares about is that you try.

I am convinced this is not true. At some point. God himself expects us to do more than just try. We are expected to be perfect (Matthew 5:48; 3 Nephi 12:48), and not merely keep chugging along.

It somewhat depends on what one means by try. I'm convinced that someone making excuses to get by on technicalities so as to think they're getting away with avoiding anything they find dis-pleasurable is not really trying after all.

[Vort]

2 minutes ago, felicityswims said:

I know in my heart that what I am doing is okay in Heavenly Fathers eyes.

So you have a testimony that God himself approves of your disobedience or "casual observance" of your covenants. Okay, whatever. We're a discussion group, not a judicial panel.

But consider this, felicityswims: Salvation does not consist in finding loopholes, or in explaining to God why your lack of effort is excusable, or saying, "Lord, I didn't do what you told me to do, but I still want to be saved. So save me."

Salvation consists in becoming what God wants us to become. The first law of heaven is obedience. If we cannot obey a simple commandment to wear underwear, how can we expect to gain what God has in store for them that love him?

[Vort]

1 minute ago, felicityswims said:

If you truly believe we botch the personal revelation process, then that means you believe that the prophets can be wrong, because they receive personal revelation. Which in turn means that what they have said regarding this topic can also be wrong. Ever think about that? Use your brain.

The above literally tells us all we need to know about felicityswims. I'm afraid this is a lost cause.

[zil]

5 minutes ago, felicityswims said:

Thank you for the all the advice, and I want to address number 7: I have prayed for advice. I've prayed about this topic hundreds of times, and I know in my heart that what I am doing is okay in Heavenly Fathers eyes. 

The counsel we receive is open to interpretation, and those of you who have chosen and are happy to wear the garment 24/7 have done so because you feel in your heart that is what you are meant to do. I do not feel the same way, and the Holy Spirit has made it clear to me that my decision is just as right as anyone else's.

If this is true, why come ask a bunch of strangers on the internet what they think?  When I am doing something I know God approves of, I am completely at peace and more confident than words can describe.  I have no need to tell anyone what I'm doing, ask others' opinions, get their reassurance, etc.  I just do what I know is right, without fear.  Your posts here don't reflect that.

Meanwhile, back to # 7, what was the sequence:

A) Don't wear the garments 24/7, then ask if doing that is OK

OR

B) Wear the garments 24/7, then receive revelation that you can wear them less often

I submit that it makes a difference.

[felicityswims]

Just now, Vort said:

So you have a testimony that God himself approves of your disobedience or "casual observance" of your covenants. Okay, whatever. We're a discussion group, not a judicial panel.

But consider this, felicityswims: Salvation does not consist in finding loopholes, or in explaining to God why your lack of effort is excusable, or saying, "Lord, I didn't do what you told me to do, but I still want to be saved. So save me."

Salvation consists in becoming what God wants us to become. The first law of heaven is obedience. If we cannot obey a simple commandment to wear underwear, how can we expect to gain what God has in store for them that love him?

1

As RMGuy stated on another thread, 

"I am temple endowed, and unless something has changed that I am not aware of, I NEVER Covenanter to wear garments.

It was placed upon me.

I was promised some very impressive blessings so long as I wear it throughout my life.

I was instructed to wear it.

I never Covenanted to do so. I had this conversation recently with my bishop, stake president, regional rep, and temple president who all conceded that this was indeed then case. Claiming that this was a covenant is to miscast the case."

I never covenanted to wear the garments. It is not a disobedience or "casual observance" of covenants because it is not a covenant.

4 minutes ago, Vort said:

The above literally tells us all we need to know about felicityswims. I'm afraid this is a lost cause.

I didn't say I believe the prophets can be wrong, I said that the person who said that we botch personal revelation must believe that. Do you know how to read, Vort? 

 

1 minute ago, zil said:

If this is true, why come ask a bunch of strangers on the internet what they think?  When I am doing something I know God approves of, I am completely at peace and more confident than words can describe.  I have no need to tell anyone what I'm doing, ask others' opinions, get their reassurance, etc.  I just do what I know is right, without fear.  Your posts here don't reflect that.

Meanwhile, back to # 7, what was the sequence:

A) Don't wear the garments 24/7, then ask if doing that is OK

OR

B) Wear the garments 24/7, then receive revelation that you can wear them less often

I submit that it makes a difference.

It was in order B. I started out wearing them 24/7 because that's what everyone else did, and I thought if I can do it without hating how I feel and feeling uncomfortable (to the point of depression,) I would wear them. When I realized I just couldn't wear them all the time because if was affecting my mental health, I prayed about wearing them less often. By the way, I wasn't asking permission to wear them less often, I was asking your opinions on how I do it since everyone I know in my ward looks down on me for it.

[Vort]

Just now, felicityswims said:

Do you know how to read, Vort?

 Obviously not. My reading comprehension difficulties are the root of your problems.

[Vort]

2 minutes ago, felicityswims said:

I never covenanted to wear the garments.

This is a sterling example of straining out little gnats while swallowing camels whole. The covenant consists of accepting and living the instructions given. To try to parse out the instructions from the covenant is to try to separate the flour from the sugar in a slice of cake. Yes, felicityswims, you did indeed covenant to wear the garment both night and day.

As I said, we are a discussion group, not a judicial panel. Do what you want. But don't come claiming that you are justified in not keeping your covenants, even in relatively small things, and expect us to jump on board and support you in your dishonesty.

[The Folk Prophet]

4 minutes ago, felicityswims said:

As RMGuy stated on another thread, 

"I am temple endowed, and unless something has changed that I am not aware of, I NEVER Covenanter to wear garments.

It was placed upon me.

I was promised some very impressive blessings so long as I wear it throughout my life.

I was instructed to wear it.

I never Covenanted to do so. I had this conversation recently with my bishop, stake president, regional rep, and temple president who all conceded that this was indeed then case. Claiming that this was a covenant is to miscast the case."

I never covenanted to wear the garments. It is not a disobedience or "casual observance" of covenants because it is not a covenant.

The first presidency disagreed with RMGuy and you:

“Church members who have been clothed with the garment in the temple have made a covenant to wear it throughout their lives."

https://www.lds.org/ensign/2002/03/prepare-for-blessings-of-the-temple?lang=eng

[zil]

3 minutes ago, felicityswims said:

I was asking your opinions on how I do it since everyone I know in my ward looks down on me for it.

Again, how can our opinions (or those of your ward members) possibly matter if you know that you are doing what God wants you to do?  The peace and confidence which stem from that knowledge overwhelm any opinion other mortals have to offer.  If you are not feeling peace, it may be time to revisit your decision.

And how is it that your ward members know your garment-wearing habits?  Unless you go out in public in immodest clothing such that it's obvious, I don't know how they would know, unless you told them, which takes me back to that whole bit of doing what you know the Lord wants you to do...