Why Feminism is Bad

[Guest MormonGator]

3 minutes ago, Godless said:

Most feminists that I know (and I know a LOT of feminists) are plenty vocal about these issues, and the child custody issue seems to be gaining traction as well. Interesting that I cross paths with so many feminists, but only very rarely encounter one of those man-haters that are brought up so often in these discussions. They exist, sure, but you would think that I would see more of them given the company I tend to keep, if the generalizations brought up here are to be believed.

 

Exactly.  Oh, of course there are man hating feminists still out there. But those who claim that they dominate the feminist movement are those who simply don't know any real feminists and are operating from a pre conceived bias. Oddly, these are the same people who hate the bias that religious people oppress women or hate homosexuals that some on the left have. So bias and stereotypes go both ways, in fairness.  

[eddified]

5 minutes ago, Godless said:

The fact that it's illegal doesn't stop it from happening at alarming rates. And the bigger problem is enforcement of the law and sentencing of criminals. You have collegiate and professional athletes who get away with horrific sexual crimes because they're talented athletes. A BYU-I student was recently convicted of voyeurism and didn't have to register as a sex offender because it was his first offense. Our justice system is soft on sexual assault far too often. That's why feminists make such a big fuss over rape culture. Our culture itself is problematic, but the "justice" system makes it so much worse. 

 

Agree 100%. Our society is abundant with dangers for women. It's good that a significant number of men are starting to see that, and we largely have feminism to thank for it.

The day that a man's bodily autonomy is affected by a pregnancy, I will gladly support this. As it is, I'm certainly not against the father having some input, but ultimately the decision is the mother's, because it's her body that is carrying the infant. Is it fair? No. But it's one area where a woman should have the greater right for simple biological reasons. 

Most feminists that I know (and I know a LOT of feminists) are plenty vocal about these issues, and the child custody issue seems to be gaining traction as well. Interesting that I cross paths with so many feminists, but only very rarely encounter one of those man-haters that are brought up so often in these discussions. They exist, sure, but you would think that I would see more of them given the company I tend to keep, if the generalizations brought up here are to be believed.

MRA sounds to me a lot like the folks who respond to "Black Lives Matter" with "All Lives Matter". Our society has come a long way in regard to gender equality and women's rights, but there are still some hurdles to overcome. Our society is still a man's world in many ways. Decreasingly so, but it's still a fact that men have the most advantages in our culture. So excuse me if I find it difficult to view my gender as oppressed.

What the Stanford swimmer Brock Turner got away with was absolutely disgusting. I'm glad a big deal was made out of that.

It's good that you pointed out most feminists aren't man-haters. But the way the media portrays it.... well, let's just say the media thrive on sensationalism. And most people here who dislike feminism are responding to the media's version of feminism, I would guess.

I think your assertion that "we largely have feminism to thank for it" is just unfounded assumption. @anatess2 has showed some indications that that might not be true.

[anatess2]

59 minutes ago, Godless said:

The fact that it's illegal doesn't stop it from happening at alarming rates. And the bigger problem is enforcement of the law and sentencing of criminals. You have collegiate and professional athletes who get away with horrific sexual crimes because they're talented athletes. A BYU-I student was recently convicted of voyeurism and didn't have to register as a sex offender because it was his first offense. Our justice system is soft on sexual assault far too often. That's why feminists make such a big fuss over rape culture. Our culture itself is problematic, but the "justice" system makes it so much worse.

The problem with this statement is the IMPLICATION that MEN by virtue of them being men are PIGS.  Just because some men are pigs does not imply a CULTURE of pig men.  Are you a pig?

Feminist making a big fuss over rape culture to denote that Men are Rapists to the point that even a mother of 2 young boys wrote a book saying her 2 children are potential rapists are simply wrong.  Men are not rapists even as Bill Clinton is a rapist.

 

59 minutes ago, Godless said:

Agree 100%. Our society is abundant with dangers for women. It's good that a significant number of men are starting to see that, and we largely have feminism to thank for it.

STARTING to see that?  Men didn't know that?  You didn't know that?  Your parents never taught you to be a gentleman and walk on the outside of the sidewalk when you're walking with a woman?  Your parents never taught you to sit facing the door when dining out with a woman?  You weren't taught to put a woman behind your back when an intruder busts through the door?  You never heard of military drafts only open to men?

If your mother did not teach you that, then it is simply that Feminists have clamored for equality so much that they mock men who DO SEE the dangers women face and try to live their lives with that deference.

 

59 minutes ago, Godless said:

The day that a man's bodily autonomy is affected by a pregnancy, I will gladly support this. As it is, I'm certainly not against the father having some input, but ultimately the decision is the mother's, because it's her body that is carrying the infant. Is it fair? No. But it's one area where a woman should have the greater right for simple biological reasons.

And herein lies the crux of the Abortion debate.  The theory that a baby inside the mother is not an individual human being but simply a woman appendage.

So sure, if you think a woman should have the ultimate decision to abort or birth the baby, then the man should have the ultimate decision to support them or not after birth.  Right?  Of course not.  Because, that baby is also the man's.  He can't (and shouldn't) escape that responsibility.  That decision to not hold responsibility over a fetus can only be made before the mutually consented sexual intercourse.  Simple biological reasons does not give a woman absolute right over another person.  You'll have to declare that other person - not a person - for that to hold weight.  So until some law declares that the fetus is not a person, then the father - who is saddled with the responsibility of supporting that person - has a say in whether the baby lives or dies.

 

59 minutes ago, Godless said:

Most feminists that I know (and I know a LOT of feminists) are plenty vocal about these issues, and the child custody issue seems to be gaining traction as well. Interesting that I cross paths with so many feminists, but only very rarely encounter one of those man-haters that are brought up so often in these discussions. They exist, sure, but you would think that I would see more of them given the company I tend to keep, if the generalizations brought up here are to be believed.

Tell that to the courts.

 

59 minutes ago, Godless said:

MRA sounds to me a lot like the folks who respond to "Black Lives Matter" with "All Lives Matter". Our society has come a long way in regard to gender equality and women's rights, but there are still some hurdles to overcome. Our society is still a man's world in many ways. Decreasingly so, but it's still a fact that men have the most advantages in our culture. So excuse me if I find it difficult to view my gender as oppressed.

I am sorry you think this way.  You need to do some research on the matter.   MRA is not saying that Men are Oppressed.  They are saying American Women of today are not Oppressed.  They are saying that the Feminist movement is preventing a discussion on Men's Rights.  Our world has swung the pendulum too far to the woman's side that we are literally creating male victims every day.  For decades now.  Although spoken with cynicism at every pore, there is much truth in these statements by a prominent "anti-3rd-wave-feminist" below:

"I want to address the men in the audience, sorry ladies. I love you but this is for the boys. The question posed to us today is whether we’ve reached an age of gender equality. I don’t think we have. We’ve overshot the age of gender equality by a long stretch and men of your generation are going to be the primary victims of this era. In secondary school you will have experienced a system that is tilted against boys. Your exams will have been primarily modular and not linear, a system that favours girls. Teachers will have tried to control and pathologize your boisterous behaviour, branding you young offenders for pranks, or cyber bullies, or typical male teenage trash talk. Taunting, after all, is how men bond. Your female peers will be encouraged at every stage of their educational journey. They will be told to join a STEM field. They will be given, showered in fact with, grants and awards, prizes and encouragement. And when they do get to apply for those jobs you will be discriminated against just because they are a girl. You’ll be the recipients of nothing.

There are no programs for men. The suggestion of having a men's officer at York University was laughed at by the student union. At university you will be told; that you are rapists in waiting, that you need to attend consent classes. Your natural love and affection for women will be neutered. You will be faced with an impossible choice, suppress your natural healthy romantic interest in women or risk a charge of rape or sexual harassment. If you speak out against this hostile and unfair environment you will be persecuted by rabid mobs of politically correct lunatics as well as the full force of the establishment media, as well [sic].

When your studies are completed you will enter a jobs market that is stacked against you. With companies pressured from all directions to hire women and will be at a 2 to 1 disadvantage if you are in STEM subjects and possible worse in others. If you do happen to land a job a single inappropriate remark, or a single accusation of an inappropriate remark, or any unsubstantiated allegation can destroy your reputation forever.

Despite all this, I’m not worried for you, because you’re men. You’re incalculable, intolerable. Impossible obstacles have been placed before you precisely to overcome, and overcoming is what men do best. It’s the nature of men to battle on, under impossible odds. We do that in war. We do that in all sorts of things, and we will do it here. Throughout your education you will be fed a grim history of what men have done through the centuries, and be told that straight white men are worse than the Nazis. You will be told nothing good about your sex, your race, or your orientation, but I’m going to tell you something good, and it is… If the patriarchy exists, women should be grateful for it. It is what took us to space, it is what built roads, builds roads, it is what built the internet, it is what protects and provides for women. And if it exists, thank God it does.

With their strength and determination men have tamed the wilderness. Men built cities and walls around us. They built buildings that we’re in. Their curiosity led us to explore the oceans. Their ingenuity has allowed us to reach the moon. And whenever feminism rises up and tries to ridicule you, to demean you for what you are, and you know… It’s interesting, like … I was gonna’ talk at this university we're at and I was called by my interlocutor troll. She said it would demean the institution to have me here. When she talked about it, the Sunday Times asked if I respected journalist, she sought to demonize him even though he’s not here to defend himself. She said Martin Daubney was a bad person. Martin Daubney’s a close friend of mine, he’s a great person. He’s spent the last five years of his life advocating for the rights of men and boys, but this is what they do, don’t pay any attention to it, don’t listen to it. We’re not in an age of gender equality. Straight white women in the west are the most privileged class in the history of our species, but we move on."

 

Edited August 1, 2017 by anatess2

[anatess2]

1 hour ago, eddified said:

What the Stanford swimmer Brock Turner got away with was absolutely disgusting. I'm glad a big deal was made out of that.

It's good that you pointed out most feminists aren't man-haters. But the way the media portrays it.... well, let's just say the media thrive on sensationalism. And most people here who dislike feminism are responding to the media's version of feminism, I would guess.

I think your assertion that "we largely have feminism to thank for it" is just unfounded assumption. @anatess2 has showed some indications that that might not be true.

Statistical fact:  Although 85% of Americans believe in gender equality, as of 2016, only 18% identify as feminists.

So yes, the Feminist Movement is not popular anymore.  But that 18% occupy the college campus and the media.  The 2 main forces that shape American culture.

So, until 3rd-wave-feminism is driven out of these institutions, changing the culture for the next generation will be difficult.

Edited August 1, 2017 by anatess2

[anatess2]

1 hour ago, MormonGator said:

Exactly.  Oh, of course there are man hating feminists still out there. But those who claim that they dominate the feminist movement are those who simply don't know any real feminists and are operating from a pre conceived bias. Oddly, these are the same people who hate the bias that religious people oppress women or hate homosexuals that some on the left have. So bias and stereotypes go both ways, in fairness.  

The article you heartily agreed with is the ultimate example that we have a loooooonnnggg way to go to eradicate the effects of 3rd-wave-feminism even with those touting themselves as the "real feminists".

Edited August 1, 2017 by anatess2

[Traveler]

The very term “feminism” indicates a bias concerning gender.  For those that honestly believe in “equality” of the sexes – I suggest that you come up with and use a gender neutral term to tout and identify your belief structure – otherwise you will be or at least should be - identified (by definition) as a sexist.  And if you believe (to any degree) a sexist is a bigot – you can add that to the terms to describe such thinking and use of terms.

 

The Traveler

[Backroads]

2 hours ago, Godless said:

 

The day that a man's bodily autonomy is affected by a pregnancy, I will gladly support this. As it is, I'm certainly not against the father having some input, but ultimately the decision is the mother's, because it's her body that is carrying the infant. Is it fair? No. But it's one area where a woman should have the greater right for simple biological reasons. 

 

So what's to stop a woman from manipulating a man with maybe-I-will-maybe-I-won't abortion threats? I personally know of such a case.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Backroads said:

So what's to stop a woman from manipulating a man with maybe-I-will-maybe-I-won't abortion threats? I personally know of such a case.

Wow that is pretty evil.

[Backroads]

58 minutes ago, DoctorLemon said:

Wow that is pretty evil.

Right? Women are given so much "empowerment" over their bodies they are encouraged to use a fetus as a bargaining chip.

[Mike]

1 hour ago, Traveler said:

The very term “feminism” indicates a bias concerning gender.  For those that honestly believe in “equality” of the sexes – I suggest that you come up with and use a gender neutral term to tout and identify your belief structure – otherwise you will be or at least should be - identified (by definition) as a sexist.  And if you believe (to any degree) a sexist is a bigot – you can add that to the terms to describe such thinking and use of terms.

One might take this advice and simply utilize the word 'gender' and 'equality' or 'equal rights', and express support for "gender equality" or "equal rights regardless of gender", but to little avail. Soon laziness would seep in. The terms gender equality and equal rights regardless of gender would become morphed into equalists, gender equalist(s), genderists, GEs, ERRGs. Some with opposing views would likely introduce further changes meant to disparage the equalists with names like the eqs, the geqs, etc. In English since the letter is 'q' is usually followed by the letter 'u' the names would change to the equs, or the gequs, and supporters would become the equinists or the gequinists. It's generally unavoidable. Ultimately a group on some forum would have a thread about Why Gequinism is Bad. But I suppose the good thing is that an objective observer would determine that at least the names were gender-neutral.

 

[SilentOne]

8 hours ago, Mike said:

In English since the letter is 'q' is usually followed by the letter 'u' the names would change to the equs, or the gequs, and supporters would become the equinists or the gequinists. It's generally unavoidable. Ultimately a group on some forum would have a thread about Why Gequinism is Bad.

I think gequs will turn into GQs and the forum thread will be Why GQism is Bad.

Edited August 2, 2017 by SilentOne
left out a word

[eddified]

Relevant link:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2016/06/30/feminists-treat-men-badly-its-bad-for-feminism/

Quote

Things have gotten to a point where casual low-level male-bashing is a constant white noise in the hip progressive online media. Take a recent piece on Broadly, the women’s section of Vice, titled, “Men Are Creepy, New Study Confirms” — promoted with a Vice Facebook post that said: “Are you a man? You’re probably a creep.” The actual study found something very different: that both men and women overwhelmingly think someone described as “creepy” is more likely to be male. If a study had found that a negative trait was widely associated with women (or gays or Muslims), surely this would have been reported as deplorable stereotyping, not confirmation of reality.

Meanwhile, men can get raked over the (virtual) coals for voicing even the mildest unpopular opinion on something feminism-related. ...

 

[zil]

7 hours ago, SilentOne said:

I think gequs will turn into GQs and the forum thread will be Why GQism is Bad.

And then the magazine will sue for trademark infringement (or something).

[anatess2]

18 hours ago, Traveler said:

The very term “feminism” indicates a bias concerning gender.  For those that honestly believe in “equality” of the sexes – I suggest that you come up with and use a gender neutral term to tout and identify your belief structure – otherwise you will be or at least should be - identified (by definition) as a sexist.  And if you believe (to any degree) a sexist is a bigot – you can add that to the terms to describe such thinking and use of terms.

 

The Traveler

THIS IS WRONG.  Unless you consider Relief Society sexist.  Feminism is an acknowledgement that there are strengths specific to women in the societal structure.  A feminist works to maximize these female strengths.  A female in society can only be strong when Men are strong.  Therefore, although the focus of a feminist is maximizing the female's contribution to society, they also strive to maximize the male's contribution to society.  In Relief Society, we call this sustaining the Priesthood.

[Jane_Doe]

7 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

THIS IS WRONG.  Unless you consider Relief Society sexist.  Feminism is an acknowledgement that there are strengths specific to women in the societal structure.  A feminist works to maximize these female strengths.  A female in society can only be strong when Men are strong.  Therefore, although the focus of a feminist is maximizing the female's contribution to society, they also strive to maximize the male's contribution to society.  In Relief Society, we call this sustaining the Priesthood.

For true feminism--- what feminism really should be, I 100% agree with this.  

Regrettably I don't find modern day "feminism" to be what it should be.  

[Mike]

Thinking about the patriarchal order mentioned in the OP I began to wonder about relationships between people who love each and don’t enter into Eternal Marriage. I read a piece on lds.org containing some personal views of Elder Dean L. Larsen wherein he wrote that the patriarchal order has no relevance in the eternal worlds except for those husbands and wives and families who have entered into the covenant of eternal marriage. I wonder what is to prevent two people from falling in love with each other and enjoying a relationship on that basis if they want. 

[Dillon]

Feminism is hog wash and just a way to play the victim. Feminism is run by lesbians and older women that no longer have any sex drive.

[Rob Osborn]

1 hour ago, Mike said:

Thinking about the patriarchal order mentioned in the OP I began to wonder about relationships between people who love each and don’t enter into Eternal Marriage. I read a piece on lds.org containing some personal views of Elder Dean L. Larsen wherein he wrote that the patriarchal order has no relevance in the eternal worlds except for those husbands and wives and families who have entered into the covenant of eternal marriage. I wonder what is to prevent two people from falling in love with each other and enjoying a relationship on that basis if they want. 

 

My own personal opinion is that all who want to be married in eternity will be able to. Eventually, all of the saved will be married and fulfill the measure of their creation.

[anatess2]

55 minutes ago, Dillon said:

Feminism is hog wash and just a way to play the victim. Feminism is run by lesbians and older women that no longer have any sex drive.

Let me guess... you work for Brietbart.

[Mike]

35 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

My own personal opinion is that all who want to be married in eternity will be able to. Eventually, all of the saved will be married and fulfill the measure of their creation.

Yes, I believe that's perfectly true. Elder Larsen also opined as much in the piece I read. And of course, the saving ordinances performed in the temple are done to that end. I'm wondering about those who don't attain to the highest degree, and those who inherit lesser kingdoms. And of course to wonder is all I can do unless I'm unaware of it having been revealed. 

[Mike]

1 hour ago, Dillon said:

Feminism is hog wash and just a way to play the victim. Feminism is run by lesbians and older women that no longer have any sex drive.

A way to play the victim--in what way?

[Dillon]

Complaining that women are not treated fairly, not payed fairly, etc.  Do you see, if there is no victim, there is no Feminism.

[NeuroTypical]

29 minutes ago, Dillon said:

Do you see, if there is no victim, there is no Feminism.

I suppose one could say that about any number of organizations.

If there is no victim, there are no cops.
If there is no victim, there is no fire department.
If there is no victim, there is no US military.
If there is no victim, there is no court system.
If there is no victim, there is no foster care.
If there is no victim, there is no need for a constitution that specifically protects the rights of citizens to petition the government for the redress of grievances.
If there is no victim, there is no need for victim's advocacy groups, battered women's shelters, or social workers.
Oh, with no victim, there's also no need for Joseph Smith's Whittling and Whistling Brigade, or the Nauvoo legion, or handguns, or self-defense classes.

Do all of these institutions and groups also play the victim?

[Mike]

1 hour ago, Dillon said:

Complaining that women are not treated fairly, not payed fairly, etc.  Do you see, if there is no victim, there is no Feminism.

Well, everybody gets treated unfairly to varying degrees and at varying times. But to the point women really have been treated unfairly for generations; and complaints of unfair treatment were valid complaints. So, there was no victim-playing. There were real victims. 

[Vort]

22 minutes ago, Mike said:

Well, everybody gets treated unfairly to varying degrees and at varying times. But to the point women really have been treated unfairly for generations; and complaints of unfair treatment were valid complaints. So, there was no victim-playing. There were real victims. 

Today's 20-year-old women have not been treated badly for generations. Today's 20-year-old men have not treated generations of women badly. The whole concept of reparations (=retaliation) is rotten to its stinking core. Feminism thrives on this.