Deceived

[Traveler]

13 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said:

You think?

You say a lot of what you think. But can you support it with anything other than your thoughts? Like, you know....some scripture or quote that says anything of the sort? Because honestly, that would be very useful. The idea that all sin comes from deception would be interesting, if true. I expect you'll reply with some convoluted theory you've come up with based on your views of agency and the pre-existence and what-have-you...but...really.... Quotes? Scriptures? Support?

Anyone "can" be deceived.

Our salvation is our choice. We choose or we choose not. So it strikes me that choosing that one will not be deceived is key. Otherwise we're victims and there is no justice or law.

Would you like a scripture on the matter? https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/2-ne/2

"Solid, permanent progress can only take place in the days ahead if deception is avoided, no matter how advantageous it may seem to yield or compromise basic principles of conduct. Be not deceived. God is not mocked. He knows what is best for his children and those who love him and would develop the traits and characteristics shown by his Only Begotten Son, Jesus Christ." Marvin J. Ashton (https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1990/10/a-pattern-in-all-things?lang=eng)

 

 

Sometimes I get the impression that you have been deceived into disliking me on a personal level.  Sorry I do not have a scripture to quote concerning this thought – it is just an impression that I get from some of the words you choose to use – specially to denigrate my sharing of personal struggles and the best resolutions.  I can understand disagreement in the form of different opinions – I find such disagreements almost human nature.  But I would think that someone that is capable of avoiding discerption to be honestly interested in personal opinions and the process that created differing conclusions.

However, all that aside, since you asked I will reference why I believe that those the fall (sin) during mortality are deceived or beguiled.   It is my understanding that those that come to earth for a mortal experience all previously exercised their agency and knowing choose to follow the Great Plan of Salvation presented by G-d our Father.  If you think this is contrary to scripture – I will look some up and include them.  I assume that sin is something in conflict with the Great Plan of Salvation.  If you disagree with this critical piece of my logic – I would greatly appreciate that you set aside the temptation to be sarcastic and as best as you are able, present your logic, understanding and scripture. 

And so, it seems that I must resolve a paradox or seeming conflict.  Since all that are born into mortal existence have chosen the Great Plan of Salvation in their first estate – the only possibility conclusion that makes sense to me is that during this time of mortal probation where we have a veil of forgetfulness that when we sin it is because we have been deceived into following a path contrary to the Great Plan of Salvation.   I just have a very hard time believing that we were deceived into following the Great Plan of Salvation in the pre-existence and now with better understanding, those that sin are making a more informed choice and exercise of our divinely given agency.

I do agree with you on the point that we should avoid being deceived as much as possible – But I do not agree nor believe that such should be our only goal or even main goal of mortality.  It seems to me that the Great Plan of Salvation sent us to a mortal probation knowing that despite all our efforts – we will be deceived.  Or as the scriptures say, “All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of G-d.”  It is not a good idea to delibertly sin so we can repent - that would be most foolish.  But let us not be so intent to put repentance aside.  I believe repentance in an integral and necessary part of the Great Plan of Salvation.   I also believe that Eve was given to Adam to be a companion in Eden – even though G-d knew full well she would be deceived or as the scriptures say “beguiled”.   I believe this beguile of Eve was all according to the Great Plan of Salvation that we may know the good from the evil (Eve’s words – not mine).  My logic concludes that being beguiled or deceived is part of the Great Plan of Salvation that we might pass through sorrow to know the good from the evil.

This may all be convoluted and misguided logic to you – but if you would please be a little more compassionate in your criticism and show me preciously where my logic has failed – I would be eternally grateful.

 

The Traveler

[The Folk Prophet]

2 hours ago, Traveler said:

Sometimes I get the impression that you have been deceived into disliking me on a personal level. 

I'd address the overall point here of my disliking you or not but since I don't actually have a personal relationship with you the idea strikes me as a bit argumentative rather than actually being useful. Enhancing the lack of usefulness is the insertion of the word "deceived" in the idea, which doesn't make a whole lot of sense. So we'll just move on.

2 hours ago, Traveler said:

Sorry I do not have a scripture to quote concerning this thought

Who's being sarcastic here?

2 hours ago, Traveler said:

it is just an impression that I get from some of the words you choose to use – specially to denigrate my sharing of personal struggles and the best resolutions. 

I'm not trying to denigrate anything. The only think I'm interested in trying to criticize is ideas that are contrary to gospel principles. If your personal struggles lead you to gospel centered answers then there's allegorical value. If they lead you to answers that are contrary to the gospel then they are not as valuable. That is fair criticism, not denigration.

2 hours ago, Traveler said:

But I would think that someone that is capable of avoiding discerption to be honestly interested in personal opinions and the process that created differing conclusions.

Honestly interested in personal opinions for the sake of nothing but that other's have them? Even when they contradict church doctrine?

2 hours ago, Traveler said:

However, all that aside, since you asked I will reference why I believe that those the fall (sin) during mortality are deceived or beguiled.

I have never said or implied that there are some who fall who have not been deceived. I tend towards rejecting the idea that all sin is based on deception. And beguiled is not 100% semantically equivalent to deceived. Flaw 1.

But what I really reject is the idea that we cannot learn to overcome deception.

3 hours ago, Traveler said:

It is my understanding that those that come to earth for a mortal experience all previously exercised their agency and knowing choose to follow the Great Plan of Salvation presented by G-d our Father.

We did exercise our agency with some level of knowledge to choose to follow God's plan. (Incidentally, why do you always write it as "the Great Plan of Salvation" like it's a proper noun? I've never seen it written this way in any church literature unless in titles. Moreover why do you always add "great" to it as if that's part of the permanent appellation? Just curious.)

However I know that you believe (based on previous conversations) we had a complete perfect knowledge in this choice, which is written, declared, taught nowhere. Flaw 2.

3 hours ago, Traveler said:

I assume that sin is something in conflict with the Great Plan of Salvation. 

Flaw 3.

3 hours ago, Traveler said:

If you disagree with this critical piece of my logic

I disagree because there's no logic to it at all unless you believe that Satan's plan was the better way. Satan's plan was that there would be no sin. God's plan was that there would be a Savior to suffer for sin because there would be sin because there would be agency. The entire plan of salvation is based on the reality and need for sin to be an option. Without the option for sin there would be no plan because there could be no enticement to one or the other, and etc... (2 Nephi 2) The plan called for opposition in all things. There MUST be opposition in all things. How can you possibly deny that the plan of salvation required sin in light of: "

"11 For it must needs be, that there is an opposition in all things. If not so, my firstborn in the wilderness, righteousness could not be brought to pass, neither wickedness, neither holiness nor misery, neither good nor bad. Wherefore, all things must needs be a compound in one; wherefore, if it should be one body it must needs remain as dead, having no life neither death, nor corruption nor incorruption, happiness nor misery, neither sense nor insensibility.

12 Wherefore, it must needs have been created for a thing of naught; wherefore there would have been no purpose in the end of its creation. Wherefore, this thing must needs destroy the wisdom of God and his eternal purposes, and also the power, and the mercy, and the justice of God.

13 And if ye shall say there is no law, ye shall also say there is no sin. If ye shall say there is no sin, ye shall also say there is no righteousness. And if there be no righteousness there be no happiness. And if there be no righteousness nor happiness there be no punishment nor misery. And if these things are not there is no God. And if there is no God we are not, neither the earth; for there could have been no creation of things, neither to act nor to be acted upon; wherefore, all things must have vanished away."

Explain how your sin being in conflict with the plan of salvation idea fits into this scripture?

If sin is critical to the plan of salvation, which it clearly is, then the theoretical paradox you face doesn't actually exist.

3 hours ago, Traveler said:

But I do not agree nor believe that [avoiding deception] should be our only goal or even main goal of mortality.  

Who are you disagreeing with on this?

3 hours ago, Traveler said:

It seems to me that the Great Plan of Salvation sent us to a mortal probation knowing that despite all our efforts – we will be deceived.  Or as the scriptures say, “All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of G-d.”

Deception is not equivalent to sin. Flaw 4. Sin is going against the will of God.

At the very least a few will openly choose sin without any deception. As in:

"He has got to say that the sun does not shine while he sees it; he has got to deny Jesus Christ when the heavens have been opened unto him, and to deny the plan of salvation with his eyes open to the truth of it"

3 hours ago, Traveler said:

It is not a good idea to delibertly sin so we can repent

Did someone say it was? Flaw 5.

3 hours ago, Traveler said:

But let us not be so intent to put repentance aside.

Did someone say we should be intent on this? Flaw 6.

3 hours ago, Traveler said:

I believe repentance in an integral and necessary part of the Great Plan of Salvation.

So...hard...to....avoid....sarcasm....

 

I believe the same thing

 

....whew. Nailed it.

3 hours ago, Traveler said:

I also believe that Eve was given to Adam to be a companion in Eden – even though G-d knew full well she would be deceived or as the scriptures say “beguiled”.   

For what it's worth, the scriptures say, directly, that Eve was deceived.

3 hours ago, Traveler said:

My logic concludes that being beguiled or deceived is part of the Great Plan of Salvation that we might pass through sorrow to know the good from the evil.

Flaw 7:

1. Sin is equivalent to being deceived.

2. Sin is in conflict with the plan of salvation.

3. Deception is part of the plan of salvation.

Not all three of these can be true

3 hours ago, Traveler said:

This may all be convoluted and misguided logic to you 

Yes.

[SpiritDragon]

5 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said:

1. Sin is equivalent to being deceived.

2. Sin is in conflict with the plan of salvation.

3. Deception is part of the plan of salvation.

Not all three of these can be true

Perhaps it comes down to interpretation. When I read these three things, I don't personally see them being mutually exclusive. For that to be the case point #2 needs to read, "sin is (not part of) the plan of salvation." I don't see being in conflict with as meaning it can't still be part.

As in 

1. Sin = Deception

2 sin/deception conflict with (work against) the plan of salvation

3. sin/deception is part of said plan

 

[The Folk Prophet]

10 hours ago, SpiritDragon said:

Perhaps it comes down to interpretation. When I read these three things, I don't personally see them being mutually exclusive. For that to be the case point #2 needs to read, "sin is (not part of) the plan of salvation." I don't see being in conflict with as meaning it can't still be part.

As in 

1. Sin = Deception

2 sin/deception conflict with (work against) the plan of salvation

3. sin/deception is part of said plan

 

*shrug*

Contextually it seemed to be a logical misstep. Traveler can clarify.

[The Folk Prophet]

POGP today:

 

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/pgp/moses/1.16?lang=eng#p15

Get thee hence, Satan; deceive me not; for God said unto me: Thou art after the similitude of mine Only Begotten.

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/pgp/moses/4.4?lang=eng#p3

And he became Satan, yea, even the devil, the father of all lies, to deceive and to blind men, and to lead them captive at his will, even as many as would not hearken unto my voice.

 

Also I thought JS Matthew was interesting to read through from the perspective of considering deception:

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/pgp/js-m/1?lang=eng

A few thoughts:

It mentions "the elect" a lot.

I compared and there are 3 references to it in Matt 24 but 8 in JS Matthew.

It says "according to the covenant" several times. These references are not in Matt 24.

[The Folk Prophet]

Looking at the sermon on the mount today. I thought of the parable of the wise man who built his house upon the rock as related to not being deceived. Looked that up and it follows the sermon on the mount with the words, "whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them..." So I thought I'd bullet point those things we are to hear and do. (Though I do believe it means ALL of Jesus' words...but...)....

I'll start with Matt 7 today since that's where the house upon the rock parable is.

• Judge not unrighteously. 
• Cast not pearls before swine.
• Ask. Seek.
• Follow the golden rule.
• Enter the strait gate.
• Beware false prophets (wolves in sheep's clothing). Know them by their fruits.
• Do the will of the Father.

[Bill (Papa) Lee]

On June 26, 2017 at 2:28 PM, The Folk Prophet said:

Some interesting discussion was had in Sunday School on being deceived. However, it fell right at the tag end of class (running late) and so not much depth to the discussion. But it got me interested. Are there clear scriptural guides to not being deceived? We know even the elect will be. So how do we avoid it?

So I did a search (initially confined to the D&C) and came up with these 5 scriptures. If anyone is so inclined, review them and the surrounding verses and share your thoughts.

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/46.8?lang=eng#p7

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/52.14?lang=eng#p13

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/49.23?lang=eng#p22

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/45.57?lang=eng#p56

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/43.6?lang=eng#p5

Does it not say, (Too paraphrase) "We're it possible even the very elect MIGHT be deceived"? Does that not mean that hpthey cannot be? Even if it does, anyone can be deceived it they are not careful, and (too paraphrase) as Joseph taught, "cling close to the bark of the tree, least reaching for the limbs, ye fall". 

[The Folk Prophet]

23 minutes ago, Bill (Papa) Lee said:

Does it not say, (Too paraphrase) "We're it possible even the very elect MIGHT be deceived"? Does that not mean that hpthey cannot be?

Yes. It does not mean that.

Wait. It doesn't not mean that... er....does it not mean that they might not be not....

I'm confused now.

 

[Bill (Papa) Lee]

22 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Yes. It does not mean that.

Wait. It doesn't not mean that... er....does it not mean that they might not be not....

I'm confused now.

 

No worries, I stay confused. 

[The Folk Prophet]

Matt 6

• Don't do alms before me to be seen of them
• Pray in secret
• Fast in secret (I need to work on this. I complain a lot when I'm fasting).
• Treasure things of heaven
• Seek first the kingdom of God

[The Folk Prophet]

On 7/11/2017 at 1:50 PM, Bill (Papa) Lee said:

Does it not say, (Too paraphrase) "We're it possible even the very elect MIGHT be deceived"? Does that not mean that hpthey cannot be? Even if it does, anyone can be deceived it they are not careful, and (too paraphrase) as Joseph taught, "cling close to the bark of the tree, least reaching for the limbs, ye fall". 

On a serious note: I suppose it depends on how one reads it. What does it mean to be elect? Is it not a choice? So from a certain perspective it would make sense that the elect won't be deceived because the very act of choosing makes them the elect and protects them from deception. However, if one reads it as, "I'm a good and faithful member of the church, therefore I cannot be deceived or fall" then one is putting pride in their pipe and smoking it. Yes? We all CAN be deceived, all the way up to the top. We can also all choose not to be deceived. (And for the sake of all the negative Nelly's out there, I'm talking about eternal matters of salvation and damnation). 

[The Folk Prophet]

Matt 5

• Poor in spirit 
• Mourn
• Meek 
• Hunger and thirst after righteousness 
• Merciful
• Pure in heart
• Peacemaker
• Persecuted for righteousness
• Evil said against you for the sake of Christ
• Be salt with savour
• Be light of the world - let your light shine
• Breaking commandments makes you least in heaven
• Keeping commandments makes you great in heaven
• Anger
• Agree with adversary
• Don't lust, etc. (Law of chastity)
• Yea, yea; Nay, nay
• Turn the other cheek, give thy coat, etc.
• Love enemies
• Be perfect

I realize, of course, that bullet pointing the sermon on the mount isn't exactly...necessary. Mostly I'm just thinking through these things as it relates to deception and bullet pointing them here because it's what I've done in previous posts with ideas.

For me, one of the things I'm getting out of this is the repeated idea related to meekness and being a peacemaker. Something I am not naturally inclined to. I'm not entirely sure of the balance on it however against the ideas of not being savourless salt, persecuted for righteouness' sake, defending the gospel, etc., and in particular, agreeing with your enemy quickly. How does that work, exactly? Anyone have any thoughts there? When someone comes around preaching false doctrine are we really supposed to agree with them?

On that note I checked the footnotes for "agree" and it has: "GR Quickly have kind thoughts for, or be well disposed toward." Which, of course, is much more reasonable, and something I can certainly do a better job of.

Anyhow, I'm still working out how to apply meekness and still stand boldly in defense of truth and righteousness.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, The Folk Prophet said:

• Be perfect

Oh, is that all...

[The Folk Prophet]

Just now, Carborendum said:

Oh, is that all...

You'll have to take up any issues you have with Jesus. His words.