Does Mormon doctrine support organic evolution?


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I should preface this with a disclaimer: I don't care about the theory of organic evolution, I can take it or leave it.

 

We know that creation ex nihilo (from nothing) is a false doctrine of apostate Christendom and is part of the philosophical construction which they call "the Trinity." We also know that matter, physical stuff which exists, is eternal and has no originator or origin. There is nothing which exists which is not material. If something is incorporeal, it doesn't exist. 

Think about the eternal nature of matter. Now think about what we are, and what the animals are, and what the plants are. We are living organisms, we might call it organic matter. 

Do you think that organic matter is uncreated and unoriginated the same way inanimate matter is? It seems apparent to me that biological organisms are not eternal, that they must be derived from unliving matter. 

We don't believe in a God that creates from nothing. We believe in a God which gives order and organization and law to pre-existing materials which he did not cause to be. This includes the laws upon which matter would change incrementally into a higher order.

We know that living organisms can be derived from dead matter, because that's exactly what happened. Living things exist, so that is precisely what has happened. Matter has become living.

How else would something as complex as our bodies be formed if not incrementally? Do you imagine Him causing dead matter to form all of the complex processes and materials of the body in one act of creation? In one moment? I'm not sure I do. 

Some have said that biological life on earth was brought from the eternal worlds and settled here on earth. I'm not sure what evidence there is in scripture for that premise.

There are contradictions in scripture. Such as the idea that Adam and Eve are the first humans on this earth. I've heard a theory from a BYU biologist (I can't recall his name) wherein Homo sapiens pre-date Adam and Eve and what Adam and Eve are, are the first souls, the first parents of the race of Man. Meaning God took a male and female Homosapien and placed into them the spirits of Adam and Eve. The mind of gods were made flesh. I'm not sure what I think of this theory.

Lehi also tells us that there was no death before the fall. Some people have said that this means no death in the garden of Eden only, meaning there was a death outside the garden. But Lehi is very clear that there was no death among all the things which were created. Organisms outside the garden of Eden are among those things created.

 People like Bruce R. McConkie and Joseph Fielding Smith (one of whom I admire) were very opposed to evolution. While men like B.H. Roberts and James A. Talmage took no issue with it. And those were just the golden oldies, I'm sure the same disagreements exist today.

What do you think about evolution?

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I have no problem with organic evolution from a religious perspective, either as a general law or as applies to human beings. My own opinion is that the scriptures were not intended to tell us the mechanics of creation, either for the earth itself or for the creatures who live thereon. So the supposed "contradictions" between organic evolution and scripture are, in my view, illusory.

I do not understand exactly how God incorporated (and incorporates) evolution into the mechanics of his creations, any more than I understand how God uses our preexistent relationships when he creates mortal families. But the fact that I don't understand these things doesn't mean these things are wrong. They are not wrong. God does create families in mortality, even if I don't understand the process. Same with organic evolution. The lack of understanding of how these things happen, whether my own or someone else's, is irrelevant.

Many apostles have had, and continue to have, different opinions. If you feel this is a spiritual matter that you need guidance on, I would suggest you look toward them more than toward me.

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I think there is so much scientific evidence supporting evolution and an Earth that is billions of years old that it is beyond being a theory at this point - you have to ignore mountains of scientific evidence to deny the theory of evolution, even if we do not yet know all of the details.  I think we ignore portions of evolutionary theory at our own peril (e.g. the antibiotics resistance crisis).  I have heard many different religious groups officially deny evolution, and I do believe that these groups lose credibility in so doing.  I am just thankful we are members of a religion that has not taken such a nonsensical and unscientific official stand, even if some past Church members and leaders have expressed personal opinions denying evolution.

i detailed this in another post several months ago, but I think evolution is completely compatible with the Gospel.  I propose (and this is all theory and guesses from DoctorLemon) that God used evolution to "calibrate" and fine tune our mortal bodies for life on Earth.  Have you ever stopped to think just how fragile we really are as mortals?  Even relatively small changes to climate, the chemical composition of our atmosphere, etc. would result in humanity dying out.  I think perhaps God created the Earth roughly as He envisioned it, then used evolution to "calibrate" and fine tune our bodies to conditions on the terrestrial world before sending our souls here, so we would survive long enough to achieve the purposes of mortality?  This theory could explain why creatures such as the pre-Adamites existed (e.g. Australopithecus).

 

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2 hours ago, Sunday21 said:

We don't believe in a God that creates from nothing? Are we basing this on the temple? Or did I miss this in the scriptures?

LEhi says no death until the fall? Does anyone know the reference?

Here's a quote from Joseph Smith:

"You ask the learned doctors why they say the world was made out of nothing; and they will answer, "doesn't the Bible say he created the world?" And they infer, from the word create, that it must have been made out of nothing. Now, the word create comes from the word baurau which does not mean to create out of nothing; it means to organize; the same as a man would organize materials and build a ship. Hence, we infer that God had materials to organize the world out of chaos--chaotic matter, which is element, and in which dwells all the glory. Element had an existence from the time he had. The principles of element are principles which can never be destroyed; they may be organized and re-organized, but not destroyed. They had no beginning, and they can have no end." 

 

Here's the reference for Lehi:

"And now, behold, if Adam had not transgressed he would not have fallen, but he would have remained in the garden of Eden. And all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created; and they must have remained forever, and had no end." - 2 Nephi 2:22.

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59 minutes ago, DoctorLemon said:

I think there is so much scientific evidence supporting evolution and an Earth that is billions of years old that it is beyond being a theory at this point - you have to ignore mountains of scientific evidence to deny the theory of evolution, even if we do not yet know all of the details.  I think we ignore portions of evolutionary theory at our own peril (e.g. the antibiotics resistance crisis).  I have heard many different religious groups officially deny evolution, and I do believe that these groups lose credibility in so doing.  I am just thankful we are members of a religion that has not taken such a nonsensical and unscientific official stand, even if some past Church members and leaders have expressed personal opinions denying evolution.

i detailed this in another post several months ago, but I think evolution is completely compatible with the Gospel.  I propose (and this is all theory and guesses from DoctorLemon) that God used evolution to "calibrate" and fine tune our mortal bodies for life on Earth.  Have you ever stopped to think just how fragile we really are as mortals?  Even relatively small changes to climate, the chemical composition of our atmosphere, etc. would result in humanity dying out.  I think perhaps God created the Earth roughly as He envisioned it, then used evolution to "calibrate" and fine tune our bodies to conditions on the terrestrial world before sending our souls here, so we would survive long enough to achieve the purposes of mortality?  This theory could explain why creatures such as the pre-Adamites existed (e.g. Australopithecus).

 

Theres certainly not mountains of evidence. There may be mountains of opinions, ideas, and conjecture but there certainly isnt mountains of scientific evidence.

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2 hours ago, Snigmorder said:

I should preface this with a disclaimer: I don't care about the theory of organic evolution, I can take it or leave it.

 

We know that creation ex nihilo (from nothing) is a false doctrine of apostate Christendom and is part of the philosophical construction which they call "the Trinity." We also know that matter, physical stuff which exists, is eternal and has no originator or origin. There is nothing which exists which is not material. If something is incorporeal, it doesn't exist. 

Think about the eternal nature of matter. Now think about what we are, and what the animals are, and what the plants are. We are living organisms, we might call it organic matter. 

Do you think that organic matter is uncreated and unoriginated the same way inanimate matter is? It seems apparent to me that biological organisms are not eternal, that they must be derived from unliving matter. 

We don't believe in a God that creates from nothing. We believe in a God which gives order and organization and law to pre-existing materials which he did not cause to be. This includes the laws upon which matter would change incrementally into a higher order.

We know that living organisms can be derived from dead matter, because that's exactly what happened. Living things exist, so that is precisely what has happened. Matter has become living.

How else would something as complex as our bodies be formed if not incrementally? Do you imagine Him causing dead matter to form all of the complex processes and materials of the body in one act of creation? In one moment? I'm not sure I do. 

Some have said that biological life on earth was brought from the eternal worlds and settled here on earth. I'm not sure what evidence there is in scripture for that premise.

There are contradictions in scripture. Such as the idea that Adam and Eve are the first humans on this earth. I've heard a theory from a BYU biologist (I can't recall his name) wherein Homo sapiens pre-date Adam and Eve and what Adam and Eve are, are the first souls, the first parents of the race of Man. Meaning God took a male and female Homosapien and placed into them the spirits of Adam and Eve. The mind of gods were made flesh. I'm not sure what I think of this theory.

Lehi also tells us that there was no death before the fall. Some people have said that this means no death in the garden of Eden only, meaning there was a death outside the garden. But Lehi is very clear that there was no death among all the things which were created. Organisms outside the garden of Eden are among those things created.

 People like Bruce R. McConkie and Joseph Fielding Smith (one of whom I admire) were very opposed to evolution. While men like B.H. Roberts and James A. Talmage took no issue with it. And those were just the golden oldies, I'm sure the same disagreements exist today.

What do you think about evolution?

I think evolution is a gigantic fraud. Adam and Eve are the decendents of God not some lower order of animal. If that were the case then we should answer to some animal as our father and not God.

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Without going into the whole ex nihilo debate (as much as I'd like to), I think that the idea of theistic evolution is important to address because of its increasing popularity.

First of all I think that all of us whether LDS, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, etc., would agree that "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth (Genesis 1:1)." So the question to the theist becomes: Did God use evolution to create the world? I believe that theistic evolution is contrary to the very nature of God. God is not a God of death; He is a God of life. The evolutionary process is one of repeated death for billions and billions of years. The Bible makes it clear that death is a result of sin. If evolution is based in death, and death is based in sin, than evolution itself would be based in sin. 

Furthermore, because death started at the fall of man, how then could death have been necessary to create man?

Genesis 2:7 "And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."

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17 hours ago, Snigmorder said:

I should preface this with a disclaimer: I don't care about the theory of organic evolution, I can take it or leave it

The official position of the Church supports this position

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17 hours ago, Sunday21 said:

We don't believe in a God that creates from nothing? Are we basing this on the temple? Or did I miss this in the scriptures?

Here:

Quote

24 And there stood one among them that was like unto God, and he said unto those who were with him: We will go down, for there is space there, and we will take of these materials, and we will make an earth whereon these may dwell;

That is that there was already material there to work with.  He just formed it (or "Organized" it).

My opinion on the creation satisfies the "ex-nihilo" AND the pre-existing materials narrative:

In physics we're aware of a process called "matter synthesis."  i.e. When enough energy is organized into a single point, it becomes matter.  Thus, matter is created "ex-nihilo" (no pre-existing matter) while at the same time, there is something from which it came (LDS doctrine).  The fact is that matter is considered a highly organized form of energy.

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2 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Here:

That is that there was already material there to work with.  He just formed it (or "Organized" it).

My opinion on the creation satisfies the "ex-nihilo" AND the pre-existing materials narrative:

In physics we're aware of a process called "matter synthesis."  i.e. When enough energy is organized into a single point, it becomes matter.  Thus, matter is created "ex-nihilo" (no pre-existing matter) while at the same time, there is something from which it came (LDS doctrine).  The fact is that matter is considered a highly organized form of energy.

Is energy considered physical? Meaning it physically exists?

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25 minutes ago, Larry Cotrell said:

Without going into the whole ex nihilo debate (as much as I'd like to)

 Well, please do! What do you have to say about it?

By the way, when sectarians read "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth" they are reading it as the beginning of all things which exist physically, not just the earth.

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30 minutes ago, Snigmorder said:

Is energy considered physical? Meaning it physically exists?

All spirit is matter.  Only more refined or pure.

What do you mean is energy physical?  Do you not feel heat?  Do you not see light?  Do you not hear sound?  Do you not get moved about by vibration and the waves of the sea?  All that is not matter on its own.  It has to have energy to do anything.

Do you not believe energy exists?

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2 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

All spirit is matter.  Only more refined or pure.

What do you mean is energy physical?  Do you not feel heat?  Do you not see light?  Do you not hear sound?  Do you not get moved about by vibration and the waves of the sea?  All that is not matter on its own.  It has to have energy to do anything.

Do you not believe energy exists?

I ask this because the idea behind creation from nothing is that you have a line. On one side of the line you have God, and on the other side of the line you have ALL  things which are created. In other words, they believe there is nothing which exists that was not created by the only eternal, beginningless agent, God. And by created, they mean caused to exist from literally nothing whatsoever. And seeing that energy is something, I'm not sure that counts as creation from nothing. Because in their view, God would have created the energy. 

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7 minutes ago, Snigmorder said:

I ask this because the idea behind creation from nothing is that you have a line. On one side of the line you have God, and on the other side of the line you have ALL  things which are created. In other words, they believe there is nothing which exists that was not created by the only eternal, beginningless agent, God. And by created, they mean caused to exist from literally nothing whatsoever. And seeing that energy is something, I'm not sure that counts as creation from nothing. Because in their view, God would have created the energy. 

Ok, I see what you're getting at.  The thing is that I don't draw such a line.  God exists.  We exist.  Space exists.  Etc.  It all exists.  We believe God to be a physical being just as much as a spiritual being.

Quote

That is the great secret. If the veil were rent today, and the great God who holds this world in its orbit, and who upholds all worlds and all things by His power, was to make Himself visible,—I say, if you were to see Him today, you would see Him like a man in form—like yourselves in all the person, image, and very form as a man

Joseph Smith April 7, 1844, Nauvoo Ill.  (reported by Wilford Woodruff, Willard Richards, Thomas Bullock, and William Clayton)

Therefore, what can you really say about that "line".  One side of the veil or the other?  It is all physical.  It is all real.  It all exists.

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32 minutes ago, zil said:

Thank you for making that statement in that way.  It will prove very useful (to me, in my fiction :D ).

http://www.iflscience.com/physics/crystallized-light-reveals-potential/

https://www.gizmodo.com.au/2014/09/physicists-are-making-solid-light/

In case you're interested.  Green Lantern fans will go nuts.

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16 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Ok, I see what you're getting at.  The thing is that I don't draw such a line.  God exists.  We exist.  Space exists.  Etc.  It all exists.  We believe God to be a physical being just as much as a spiritual being.

Therefore, what can you really say about that "line".  One side of the veil or the other?  It is all physical.  It is all real.  It all exists.

Creation ex nihlio is greek philosophy, I can't say anything of such a line, seeing as we put no stock in philosophy as far as religious matters are concerned. All I can say is that I believe there are things which were not created. The minds of gods were not created and the  "substance" from which "stuff" is derived is uncreated. And it is all physically constituted of things which do exist and are not incorporeal, even the minds of gods, Intelligence.

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9 minutes ago, Snigmorder said:

Creation ex nihlio is greek philosophy, I can't say anything of such a line, seeing as we put no stock in philosophy as far as religious matters are concerned. All I can say is that I believe there are things which were not created. The minds of gods were not created and the  "substance" from which "stuff" is derived is uncreated. And it is all physically constituted of things which do exist and are not incorporeal, even the minds of gods, Intelligence.

OK.  So, why the question "Is energy considered physical"?

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18 minutes ago, Snigmorder said:

Because you implied that energy was incorporeal by applying it to creation from nothing.

And?

You seem to be categorizing things in ways that I simply don't agree with.  Is energy incorporeal?  I'd agree with that categorization.  Is energy physical?  That's where you're going to have a problem with definitions and semantics.

My statement on this perspective was just that:  A perspective.  If you're an ancient (Biblical era) and someone described to you the concept of matter synthesis as I just described, the only way you could conceive of it is by thinking of it as "magically (or miraculously, if you prefer) creating out of nothing."  Yet, to us, it is not "out of nothing."  It is simply another form of "material" as Abraham calls it.

We tend to think of matter and energy as separate substances.  But with the understanding that they can convert from one to the other,  then they must both belong to a greater category of "stuff" that we don't have a word for.  Let us call it "Globb."  Matter is globb.  Energy is globb.  Spirit is globb.  Depending on how it is arranged or how it behaves, it is called matter, energy, or spirit (and perhaps more things that we're not aware of yet).

If I tell you that the manner of creation was to change energy into matter, you provide the question that you did while sectarians will call it ex-nihilo creation.  But if I say He changed "energy globb" into "matter globb", that satisfies the LDS narrative on creation.  Thus both beliefs are satisfied from a certain perspective.  And while it seems they are mutually exclusive, they are really hand-in-hand, or possibly different sides of the same coin.

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It is believed that Joseph Smith taught that there are two basic things in the universe, (a) intelligence and (b) element. Both are eternal and uncreated. http://ldsdoctrine.blogspot.com/2010/01/element-and-intelligence.html

Edit: the link above is not my blog, and I do not necessarily agree with the text at the given link. I supplied it because it seems relevant to the conversation, and I find it interesting discussion material.

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23 minutes ago, Sunday21 said:

@zil. Oh goody! Are you writing SiFi? 

No, fantasy.  In one particular universe, there are sentient beings whose natural form is loosely organized and amorphous.  Some of them choose to organize themselves (and have figured out how to organize matter) into more condensed forms.  I'm not sure how, but I think the idea of matter being highly organized energy may fit in there somehow.

Thanks for the links, @Carborendum! :)  Interesting reading.

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