Is this a photo of Joseph Smith?


Snigmorder
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Seems like it could be him. The darks areas around his cheeks and chin could be from when he was tarred and feathered.

 

There's another photo which is supposed to be Joseph Smith, according to an RLDS archivist, "90% certainty."

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What do you think? Are either of these photos of the Prophet?

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Never seen the top one, but it sure looks like him.

The bottom one doesn't look a whole lot like paintings of Joseph, but the facial features apparently match up almost perfectly with skull fragments (you can see this online).  One explanation is the bottom photo was taken right after he was in Liberty Jail and he had lost a lot of weight.  Based on what I have seen and read, I think the bottom one is probably a genuine photograph of Joseph.

Edited by DoctorLemon
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14 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

None of them (including the painting) look like the death mask.  But whatever.

 I don't consider the death mask a completely accurate depiction of his face considering he fell from a window and was dead (hence, death mask.) I think the lips in both photos and on the death mask are very similar (I don't think the lips would be all that compromised.)

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2 minutes ago, person0 said:

I was under the impression that these images were released years ago, and that they were found to be of one of Joseph Smith's sons.  I had never seen the very top one though.

To my understanding Joseph Smith only ever had one son that lived passed childhood. And there's not much evidence that he had sons with his other wives.

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30 minutes ago, person0 said:

I was under the impression that these images were released years ago, and that they were found to be of one of Joseph Smith's sons.  I had never seen the very top one though.

I actually heard the bottom photo may have been of Samuel Smith.  However, if you look up "death mask joseph smith photograph" on google images, there is a photo where a picture of the death mask was inserted over the bottom photo, and it appears to fit perfectly. 

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1 hour ago, Snigmorder said:

To my understanding Joseph Smith only ever had one son that lived passed childhood. And there's not much evidence that he had sons with his other wives.

It's very easy now to find out how many children he had with Emma. He had 4 sons who lived to adulthood, Joseph III, Alexander, Frederick and David and one adopted daughter Julia.

M.

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36 minutes ago, Maureen said:

It's very easy now to find out how many children he had with Emma. He had 4 sons who lived to adulthood, Joseph III, Alexander, Frederick and David and one adopted daughter Julia.

M.

I thought his only son into adulthood was Joseph Smith III. I googled it and that's also what it said, Google sucks (or perhaps I suck at Google.)

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2 hours ago, Snigmorder said:

 I don't consider the death mask a completely accurate depiction of his face considering he fell from a window and was dead (hence, death mask.) I think the lips in both photos and on the death mask are very similar (I don't think the lips would be all that compromised.)

I swear you disagree with everything anyone says xD

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19 minutes ago, Snigmorder said:

I thought his only son into adulthood was Joseph Smith III. I googled it and that's also what it said, Google sucks (or perhaps I suck at Google.)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Hale_Smith

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Hyrum_Smith

Frederick did survive into adulthood, but died at the age of 25.  So, it is understandable that he did not make it into the histories.

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1 hour ago, MormonGator said:

It's nice to speculate but it's hard to prove authenticity.

I can't even find a source for the top picture. The video claims it was found in Missouri but I can't find anything about it on the Internet. Or any images of it that aren't associated with the video.

Edited by Snigmorder
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14 minutes ago, Snigmorder said:

But seriously wouldn't there be something off with his face if he fell from a second-story window and (I assume) had rigor mortis during the casting of the death mask? 

It would certainly depend on how he landed.  And if you look at the death mask, it sure doesn't look distorted in any way.  And rigor mortis wouldn't distort the face.

What we're not taking into account is that he was known to be a bit of a joker.  I'd imagine his living face to look more like.

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Notice the nose and the cheek bones still fit.

Edited by Guest
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Ive done photography for decades and I have processed my ow B&W film and enlargements for years.  My first impression is that this photo is a modern photo that has been manipulated.   It's been sepia toned and "aged."  My reason for saying this is because there is a crispness and clarity of focus to the eyes, nose, and mouth that does not happen with the old photographic methods.   At the time this photo was allegedly taken, tintypes were not in use.  It would probably have been  an ambrotype.  This is photographic emulsion spread on glass, exposed and then processed.  The cameras of the time used very poor lenses and lacked the clarity and focus.  Additionally,  the ambrotype emulsion was unevenly applied , which added to the lack of clarity.  I'm not buying this one.

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4 hours ago, Jojo Bags said:

Ive done photography for decades and I have processed my ow B&W film and enlargements for years.  My first impression is that this photo is a modern photo that has been manipulated.   It's been sepia toned and "aged."  My reason for saying this is because there is a crispness and clarity of focus to the eyes, nose, and mouth that does not happen with the old photographic methods.   At the time this photo was allegedly taken, tintypes were not in use.  It would probably have been  an ambrotype.  This is photographic emulsion spread on glass, exposed and then processed.  The cameras of the time used very poor lenses and lacked the clarity and focus.  Additionally,  the ambrotype emulsion was unevenly applied , which added to the lack of clarity.  I'm not buying this one.

Could it be a daguerreotype? Apparently those are supposed to have sharp detail.

 

Here's a picture of it not zoomed in, It looks black and white in this image. (In case you didn't watch the video, it claims the man on the left is Brigham Young. According to the video they were found together.)

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  • pam featured this topic

I agree that the pictures dont match the death mask, and I did go and see it in person. But I also agree the he did fall from a window. But even after this his face should still probably have a similar face shpe and such. I think the bottom one is him, but im not so sure about the top. The two pictures arent very similar.

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13 hours ago, Snigmorder said:

Could it be a daguerreotype? Apparently those are supposed to have sharp detail.

 

Here's a picture of it not zoomed in, It looks black and white in this image. (In case you didn't watch the video, it claims the man on the left is Brigham Young. According to the video they were found together.)

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The problem is the clear focus of the eyes,  nose, and mouth.   The cameras in that era had a fixed focus lens.  You can get a general focus, but without the crispness of focus.  They are simply incapable of such clarity. I've done dozens of portraits and processed the prints.   You need a camera with the ability to adjust its focus.  The second problem is the unevenness of te emulsion when it's applied to the glass.  That will also throw off the clarity.  

Another problem is the lighting of the face.   The left side is lighter with contrast/shadowing on the right side.  This is classic modern portraiture lighting.  There was no way to accomplish this in the 1840's.  Flash powder was invented in 1878 and even that would not produce portraiture lighting. 

Edited by Jojo Bags
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I finally got around to seeing the video.  I can't believe anyone thought that superposition was convincing.  No, that photo does not look like the death mask.

And I'm supposed to be the one thinking all those white men look alike.  Baaah.

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Searching around tonight about information about the photograph (the second picture) and found a book some might be interesting, "Millions Shall Know Brother Joseph Again: The Joseph Smith Photograph"  by S. Michael Tracy

One reviewer from Goodreads wrote in his review, "Through forensic analysis of the prophet's death mask and photographs taken of his skull when his grave was moved, comparison with contemporary descriptions, and examination of heritable features in photographs of his descendants Tracy demonstrates with near certainty that the Scannel Daguerreotype is an authentic image of the Prophet Joseph Smith."

Sounds like there is strong likelihood that it is a photograph of Joseph Smith. Luckily for me, my library has the book so I just placed it in hold. 

I haven't watched the video yet, but I question the top picture but it does similar to the painting we have of him. It would be interesting to have an in-depth look into it.

I don't know if we will ever know for certain but I do find them both interesting.

One also has to question, did Joseph Smith have a doppelganger? 

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7 hours ago, Carborendum said:

I finally got around to seeing the video.  I can't believe anyone thought that superposition was convincing.  No, that photo does not look like the death mask.

And I'm supposed to be the one thinking all those white men look alike.  Baaah.

The problem with the superposition is that the photograph seems to be slightly transparent which allowed the painting to slightly influence the face.

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7 hours ago, Armin said:
Joseph Smith and some associates were imprisoned in Liberty Jail, Missouri, from December 1838 to April 1839, during the so-called "Mormon War". In 1839 Joseph Smith was 34 years of age, and the technique of photography was invented 1837 in France, developed and brought into practice  with appropriate cameras and lenses maybe one or two decades later. The assumption of a genuine photograph of Joseph Smith as a young man of about 25 (like on the photo) means to ignore the fact that photography wasn't in use at his lifetime and surely not at his age of about 20 or 25. As said before, an archivist's 90% surplus of ignorance can easily transform into a "90% certainty"...

I'm afraid you've got your history a bit mixed up.  But the one correct point you bring up is the apparent age of the subject in the photograph is that of a younger man.  I don't recall any descriptions of Joseph appearing to be younger than he was.  In fact, I have heard of some accounts saying he looked older than he was.

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