How do I behave towards a gay colleague at work?


Sunday21
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6 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

TFP is giving a good scriptural argument here.  Sound reasoning and truth. 

In this particular situation, where we're thinking about how to behave towards people whose sin we think we can identify and quantify, well, here's also some good scriptural argument:

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/tg/gossip

 

 

To be clear, my response was an aside, not related to how one should treat another person who is engaged in grievous sin. -- just in case someone misread me. ;)

Edited by The Folk Prophet
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30 minutes ago, unixknight said:

morally equivalent to a guy who steals pencils and pens from work.

That's why @zil keeps getting fired from her job at the fountain pen store. 

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Just now, zil said:

I don't steal them, I'm testing them, for review purposes.

Just be glad I didn't tell them about the $20,000 that has mysteriously vanished from the compound young lady! 

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Just now, MormonGator said:

Just be glad I didn't tell them about the $20,000 that has mysteriously vanished from the compound young lady! 

It didn't mysteriously vanish.  It was an accounting error.  Someone typed the wrong number of zeros somewhere.  I'm narrowing it down. ;)

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A reason why this issue rankles:  We really are treating LGBT as a kind of race or human category, even as we know there is sin. Why does it seem off to say gay sex is just like any other sin, and we don't call people out on them? It sounds right, but feels wrong. Awhile back I heard the unintended answer. A minister with the Presbyterian Church USA (which recently approved its ministers officiating gay weddings) explained why he could not (he doesn't have to, btw). The challenge came thus, "So, would you officiate the wedding of two open, admitted, unabashed gossipers?"

"Well, if it was brought to my attention, and they admitted it, then probably not. However, chances are, through some counseling, they would repent of their gossiping, promise to 'go and sin no more,' and I would be able to officiate their wedding."

You see where this is going, right? His conclusion?  "How can a gay couple do that, and then ask me to go ahead and officiate their wedding?"

Our struggle with LGBT issues is not so much that it is a special kind of sin (all sexual ones are), but that most do not recognize it as any kind of sin. There is no repentance. Instead, God or the church get blamed. Nevertheless, in the work place, unless the co-worker is seeking spiritual counsel we really have no jurisdiction.

Edited by prisonchaplain
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How do we treat them?  Like co-workers.

In a place of employment, there are rules nowadays that prevent us from speaking -- even in a nation of free speech.

Here's an anecdote of something not gay related, but, well... just read:

Quote

While at work we were going over some design elements on paper.  Some words and terms were spoken in just the right combination that there was an obvious innuendo that came to mind.  One person said something.  Another added to that.  Then it just snowballed from there.

It eventually got so raunchy that I was shocked that it went that far.  I stood up and said,"I guess I need to leave."

They all shut up and went back to work after I left.   I guess they didn't need me in that meeting after all.

 

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26 minutes ago, prisonchaplain said:

You see where this is going, right? His conclusion?  "How can a gay couple do that, and then ask me to go ahead and officiate their wedding?"

I think this is a really important point, and why the sin of homosexual behavior seems to be in a category by itself.  To officiate at that kind of wedding is to officially stamp the church's seal of approval on the behavior it revolves around.  It's one of the few sins that people use as their defining characteristic.  I mean, we've now defined an entire demographic of people based solely on this particular activity.  I can't think of any other case in which a sinful behavior defines a protected class, nor can I think of another sin that churches have been under so much pressure to endorse.

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2 hours ago, zil said:

It didn't mysteriously vanish.  It was an accounting error.  Someone typed the wrong number of zeros somewhere.  I'm narrowing it down. ;)

See, if they were using a fountain pen, that wouldn't have happened.

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On 7/16/2017 at 6:59 AM, Sunday21 said:

 ... So do you recall any talks or church statements that might cast light on this? I have been trying to find a church statement released after the California same sex marriage decision. I hope to find anything that might shed light one way or the other,

This seems to match your request pretty well :)

Quote

https://www.lds.org/ensign/2016/09/faith-fairness-and-religious-freedom.p1?lang=eng Excellent talk from lds.org on religious freedom and rights for gender/sex issues. You know what, these people can really write! What great sentences.

I agree with you. :)

 

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On 2017-7-16 at 6:59 AM, Sunday21 said:

A lady that I visit teach (we really need a good term for this! You UK and Aussie people, could you please work on this?). 

Anyway, this lady asked me how she should behave towards gay people at work. I was like 'How about a hug?' She was like 'No I need to show disapproval'. I was like, 'Do you show disapproval towards everyone who makes different lifestyle choices than yourself? What about a coworker who is living in sin? Do you pass them files but make sure that your hands never touch because they are unclean?'

But she felt that she needed to indicate thar she loved the sinner but disapproved of the sin. Interestingly, this woman is a lovely warm person who has no dislike of the gay person in question. She would prefer to be warm towards the gay person but feels that it is her religious duty to indicate disapproval. My feeling is that unless asked point blank, 'Do you disapprove of my lifestyle? ' We should be friendly and kind. To be the default option is friendly and kind. So I am searching for a talk by a leader or maybe a newsrelease that indicates, how do you respond to someone when you disapprove of someone's lifestyle? To me, I would never mention or indicate disapproval. 

I think to some people the guide is 'What would Jesus do? He might well give a sinner a hug and say 'Go and sin no mere'. But the thing is, I am not Jesus. He has priesthood authority, I do not.

I was in a gospel principles class once in which the teacher tried to persuade us that if someone had sinned, we should discourage them from taking the sacrament. Her suggestion,' if you know that someone just had a fight with their husband and the sacrament tray comes round, jog their elbow and tell them not to take the sacrament. ' I can just imagine the kind of brawl that sacrament would devolve into! The class rejected this proposal.  The teacher turned to a section of the d&c which instructed us not to allow unclean people to take the sacrament. We countered that this referred to priesthood authority not to ordinary members.

My position is that:

We should not indicate disapproval of others as a general rule. Doing so, just makes us look like cranky people. Unlikely to win converts.

If any disapproval needs to take place, this is a job for whoever has priesthood authority over that person. So the local bishop not any priesthood holder who happens to be passing.

So do you recall any talks or church statements that might cast light on this? I have been trying to find a church statement released after the California same sex marriage decision. I hope to find anything that might shed light one way or the other,

Thanks!

 

If she is going to show disapproval toward a gay person,  then she should also show the same disapproval toward those heterosexual people who cohabitate or engage in pre or extramarital sex.  I am not supportive of the homosexual lifestyle in any way, but I'm  against narrow minded,  ignorant people.  We're supposed to love the sinner,  not the sin, however difficult that may be. 

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On 7/16/2017 at 5:59 AM, Sunday21 said:

A lady that I visit teach (we really need a good term for this! You UK and Aussie people, could you please work on this?). 

Anyway, this lady asked me how she should behave towards gay people at work. I was like 'How about a hug?' She was like 'No I need to show disapproval'. 

I don't know what the employment laws are like north of the border, but it sounds like this lady has an underlying desire to be unemployed.

 

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3 hours ago, omegaseamaster75 said:

I don't know what the employment laws are like north of the border, but it sounds like this lady has an underlying desire to be unemployed.

 

She is just overly conscientious. There are a lot of silly attitudes hanging around up here in the attic of American Zion. Remember we are a long way from the mountain top!

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My own personal desire in the context of the OP and subsequent posts is to state my own approach as some others have done with theirs. I like to believe that I'm following the scriptural admonition to let my light shine as in allowing people who are in the dark to see their way amongst the rocks and the cliff-edges. This as opposed to focusing my light in their eyes so that they feel compelled to shield themselves from it. So, I imagine "my light" more as a lantern and less as a search-light used as a weapon. Since I have been exposed to both kinds of lights myself I'm trying hard not to indict anyone else (neither the blind nor the seeing) but "that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven" and not that they may glorify me. (I realize that one always runs the risk of inviting unintended consequences when talking about one's self.) :) 

 

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  • 2 weeks later...

Seems to me she is simply confusing the sin with the sinner. As for what doctrine or talk you could use in your discussion with her, anything that talks about loving your neighbor could be appropriate.
This talk in particular could be useful though:
https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2014/10/loving-others-and-living-with-differences?lang=eng @Sunday21

Quote

On the subject of public discourse, we should all follow the gospel teachings to love our neighbor and avoid contention. Followers of Christ should be examples of civility. We should love all people, be good listeners, and show concern for their sincere beliefs. Though we may disagree, we should not be disagreeable. Our stands and communications on controversial topics should not be contentious. We should be wise in explaining and pursuing our positions and in exercising our influence. In doing so, we ask that others not be offended by our sincere religious beliefs and the free exercise of our religion. We encourage all of us to practice the Savior’s Golden Rule: “Whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them” (Matthew 7:12).

When our positions do not prevail, we should accept unfavorable results graciously and practice civility with our adversaries. In any event, we should be persons of goodwill toward all, rejecting persecution of any kind, including persecution based on race, ethnicity, religious belief or nonbelief, and differences in sexual orientation.

 

If you read the rest he also discusses same-sex attraction some more if you read more of the talk.

I also know that Elder Uchtdorf has been quoted in the news as stating that we ought not belittle gays. And we should love all of God's children"
http://archive.sltrib.com/story.php?ref=/sltrib/news/50537493-78/uchtdorf-church-lds-sex.html.csp
I haven't found anything terribly "church official" though.

Anyway, I find it to be fairly straightforward to discuss doctrine indicating that we should show christlike love toward a gay coworker.
On the other hand it can be a much more complicated discussion to try and talk about things like "My son has invited me to his gay wedding, should I go?"

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I really don't see the point in being unpleasant to those who do not share my religious views. It is highly unlikely that you will stop to learn more about the views of an unpleasant person! If on the other hand, we are nice to those who don't share our views then at least, others are more likely to listen.

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13 minutes ago, Sunday21 said:

I really don't see the point in being unpleasant to those who do not share my religious views. It is highly unlikely that you will stop to learn more about the views of an unpleasant person! If on the other hand, we are nice to those who don't share our views then at least, others are more likely to listen.

Even more than that, as an outsider YOU are my witness.  One of the reasons I wanted to learn more about your faith is because of how you acted.  I'm just as interested in what you practice as what you preach.  As a Baptist, I was always very put off by how people were judged and treated when they weren't living as others felt they should.  How you live your life is quite honestly none of my business.  That is between you and the Savior.

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23 minutes ago, Grunt said:

Even more than that, as an outsider YOU are my witness.  One of the reasons I wanted to learn more about your faith is because of how you acted.  I'm just as interested in what you practice as what you preach.  As a Baptist, I was always very put off by how people were judged and treated when they weren't living as others felt they should.  How you live your life is quite honestly none of my business.  That is between you and the Savior.

Yes, I agree. I was an athesist before I joined the church as a teenager. When I was considering coming back, it was really important to me that church members behaved well towards each other. If your religion is true, then it should change your behavior! If you do not behave well, then your religion is not very effective! 

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18 minutes ago, Sunday21 said:

Yes, I agree. I was an athesist before I joined the church as a teenager. When I was considering coming back, it was really important to me that church members behaved well towards each other. If your religion is true, then it should change your behavior! If you do not behave well, then your religion is not very effective! 

Absolutely not. The LDS church will always be true. Because it is Christs church. He is the founder. Now whether the members decide to let the church change them is entirely up to them. Agency is the biggest part of the LDS Church. God wont make us do anything. We canno judge the church by its members. Absolutely cannot.

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29 minutes ago, artista said:

Absolutely not. The LDS church will always be true. Because it is Christs church. He is the founder. Now whether the members decide to let the church change them is entirely up to them. Agency is the biggest part of the LDS Church. God wont make us do anything. We canno judge the church by its members. Absolutely cannot.

Dear Artista,

i don't agree. If your religion does not change your behaviour, then what good is your religion?

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