Do animals have souls?

[Fether]

Prison Chaplin made a comment in a different thread which sparked this question.

Do animals have souls??

I accept philosophical, spiritual, theological, factual, and humorological answers.

[zil]

If all things were created spiritually before they were created physically, how could they not?  It is said that Joseph Smith taught they did - don't ask me where, I don't feel the need to go find it.  I'm quite confident they do.

[Fether]

3 minutes ago, zil said:

If all things were created spiritually before they were created physically, how could they not?  

Do rock and have souls?? 

(Half sarcastic half curious to your response)

Edited July 17, 2017 by Fether

[Sunday21]

I think John the Beloved saw a vision of some particular animals in Revelations. I very much want to have a golden retriever in the next life. 

Edited July 17, 2017 by Sunday21

[zil]

13 minutes ago, Fether said:

Do rock and have souls?? 

(Half sarcastic half curious to your response)

I believe that the earth has a spirit.  I assume the minerals of the earth are all part of that one entity rather than each particle or rock or whatever having a separate spirit.  I'm not certain whether plants have their own spirits or are also part of the earth (given that each plant has its own life, I'm gonna guess they have their own spirits).  There's also the fact that plants and animals are commanded to multiply - how do you command something with no spirit?  If it has no spirit, how can it have intelligence?  If it has no intelligence, how can it act, let alone obey?

11 minutes ago, Sunday21 said:

I very much want to have a golden retriever in the next life.

I suspect that golden retriever will be an agent unto itself and not need you to care for it, and have its own work to do.  But it may well be happy to keep company with you from time to time.  It might even still like getting its ears scratched.

Edited July 17, 2017 by zil

[person0]

@Fether,

The answer is, yes!  Animals have spirits and the earth itself has a spirit which would technically include the rocks, but without the earth I would not presume the rocks to have independent spirits.  Here are some sources:

Quote

Q. What are we to understand by the four beasts, spoken of in the same verse?

A. They are figurative expressions, used by the Revelator, John, in describing heaven, the paradise of God, the happiness of man, and of beasts, and of creeping things, and of the fowls of the air; that which is spiritual being in the likeness of that which is temporal; and that which is temporal in the likeness of that which is spiritual; the spirit of man in the likeness of his person, as also the spirit of the beast, and every other creature which God has created.

(D&C 77:2)
(Ensign - Do animals have spirits?)

All living things—mankind, animals, and plants—were spirits before any form of life existed upon the earth.

(Guide to the Scriptures - Spirit)

Earth - A living Entity

(Guide to the Scriptures - Earth)

The earth itself and the living things on the earth have spirit counterparts that existed before the physical creation, and a living soul consists of a spirit body united with a physical body.

(Encyclopedia of Mormonism - Spirit World)

[Fether]

10 minutes ago, zil said:

I believe that the earth has a spirit.  I assume the minerals of the earth are all part of that one entity rather than each particle or rock or whatever having a separate spirit.  I'm not certain whether plants have their own spirits or are also part of the earth (given that each plant has its own life, I'm gonna guess they have their own spirits).  There's also the fact that plants and animals are commanded to multiply - how do you command something with no spirit?  If it has no spirit, how can it have intelligence?  If it has no intelligence, how can in act, let alone obey?

I suspect that golden retriever will be an agent unto itself and not need you to care for it, and have its own work to do.  But it may well be happy to keep company with you from time to time.  It might even still like getting its ears scratched.

Whenever I read or think about things like this, I am reminded of a book my friend showed me titled "gospel trilogy" by Cleone Skousen. It's a as of a much a deep book talk as you could ever find. 

The first section essentially explains the beginning of spirits and how what animal we are is based on how much responsibility we desired (much like those who want to be like god go to th celestial kingdom and those who don't go elsewhere), what we are made of, how miracles occur, how everything that changes (physical or chemical) has a soul of some sort, and here is the kicker, explains how the atonement was possible...

...A very interesting read but rather skeptical of how true it is...

[Larry Cotrell]

I say no, here's the Biblical reason why

Genesis 1:26-27 "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them."

Descriptions in Genesis seem to put animals more on the level of plants (which I think we can agree don't have souls otherwise I would have tremendous guilt from all the times I've mowed my lawn) rather than on the same level as humans because humans were created in the image of God.

In Genesis 9:3 God told the world's new and only residents, "Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things."

This again puts animals on the same level as plants. Furthermore, God allows and commands the killing of animals in this passage as well as in Leviticus for animal sacrifices. God would not command the murder of innocent souls. 

But what about passages like Isaiah 11 and 65 that mention animals acting peacefully in heaven? Is it possible that these are simply metaphors for the peaceful state of heaven? I think that's possible, but I think it's more likely (as I tend to interpret most scripture literally) that there will be animals in heaven. However, I'm pretty confident that they won't be the same souls of animals from this life.

Edited July 17, 2017 by Larry Cotrell

[Fether]

46 minutes ago, Larry Cotrell said:

I say no, here's the Biblical reason why

Genesis 1:26-27 "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them."

Descriptions in Genesis seem to put animals more on the level of plants (which I think we can agree don't have souls otherwise I would have tremendous guilt from all the times I've mowed my lawn) rather than on the same level as humans because humans were created in the image of God.

In Genesis 9:3 God told the world's new and only residents, "Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things."

This again puts animals on the same level as plants. Furthermore, God allows and commands the killing of animals in this passage as well as in Leviticus for animal sacrifices. God would not command the murder of innocent souls. 

But what about passages like Isaiah 11 and 65 that mention animals acting peacefully in heaven? Is it possible that these are simply metaphors for the peaceful state of heaven? I think that's possible, but I think it's more likely (as I tend to interpret most scripture literally) that there will be animals in heaven. However, I'm pretty confident that they won't be the same souls of animals from this life.

No, I think animals have spirits.

just from a philosophical view, how animals can perceive, feel emotion, desire things, have fear, and the biggest convincing factor of all is that they seem to recognie and follow things are good and avoid and fear things that are evil

[Snigmorder]

Not just animals, but plants too. 

"And out of the ground made I, the Lord God, to grow every tree, naturally, that is pleasant to the sight of man; and man could behold it. And it became also a living soul. For it was spiritual in the day that I created it; for it remaineth in the sphere in which I, God, created it;" - Moses 3:9

[Larry Cotrell]

22 minutes ago, Snigmorder said:

Not just animals, but plants too. 

"And out of the ground made I, the Lord God, to grow every tree, naturally, that is pleasant to the sight of man; and man could behold it. And it became also a living soul. For it was spiritual in the day that I created it; for it remaineth in the sphere in which I, God, created it;" - Moses 3:9

Interesting, seems like a pretty definitive scripture for those who accept the book of Moses, but the idea of plants having souls seems like quite a stretch to me. I haven't noticed that verse before.

I would also like to point out Genesis 2:7 "And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." The Bible never applies this idea of the "breath of life" or "a living soul" to plants and animals which is another reason I believe only humans have souls. However, now I know that the Pearl of Great Price does in fact apply this to plants.

Interesting

 

[Guest]

11 hours ago, Fether said:

Prison Chaplin made a comment in a different thread which sparked this question.

Do animals have souls??

I accept philosophical, spiritual, theological, factual, and humorological answers.

A-HEM!!!  That's a cue if ever I heard one.

Emo Philips:

Quote

I was seated in a theater when a man pointed at the empty seat beside me and asked,"Is this seat saved?"

I responded,"Well, if by chance even animals have no souls, then what chance is there for an inanimate object like a chair to gain salvation?"

10 hours ago, Larry Cotrell said:

But what about passages like Isaiah 11 and 65 that mention animals acting peacefully in heaven? Is it possible that these are simply metaphors for the peaceful state of heaven? I think that's possible, but I think it's more likely (as I tend to interpret most scripture literally) that there will be animals in heaven. However, I'm pretty confident that they won't be the same souls of animals from this life.

Now, for your listening pleasure.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FIRTsMo6mSY

Edited July 17, 2017 by Guest

[cdowis]

The earth has a spirit so animals certainly have one.

A more interesting question is whether matter has intelligence == it has the ability to follow instructions and to show obedience, or a basic free will.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, cdowis said:

The earth has a spirit so animals certainly have one.

A more interesting question is whether matter has intelligence == it has the ability to follow instructions and to show obedience, or a basic free will.

I would think that just as bacteria are a different "level" of life than animals and plant, and humans are a higher form of life, etc.  Then I'd say that everything has a soul.  But not all souls are equal.

In science we think that all things are driven by the four fundamental forces in nature.  But what drives them?  Science says: Nothing.  They're fundamental.  That's the definition of fundamental.

In my mind, it is deeper.  The fundamental driving force in this universe is that all things have souls of one kind or another.  And all matter follows the commandments of God in the sphere in which they have influence. All but man.  The basic principles of nature are only there because matter obeys God.   And it all obeys God because God, himself is perfectly obedient to Eternal Principles...

This discussion could, of course, continue even deeper.  But I believe that is about as fundamental as we're going to get in mortality.

[mordorbund]

15 hours ago, zil said:

I suspect that golden retriever will be an agent unto itself and not need you to care for it, and have its own work to do.  But it may well be happy to keep company with you from time to time.

You just described a cat.

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, mordorbund said:

You just described a cat.

No, she said "and have its own WORK to do." 

That's not a cat.

Edited July 17, 2017 by Guest

[mordorbund]

John the Divine "saw another angel fly".... so, bugs have souls.

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, mordorbund said:

John the Divine "saw another angel fly".... so, bugs have souls.

NOT MOSQUITOES!!!  They are preternatural creatures of the netherworld.  I believe there is a scriptural reference for that, actually. 

Edited July 17, 2017 by Guest

[Mike]

11 hours ago, Larry Cotrell said:

Interesting, seems like a pretty definitive scripture for those who accept the book of Moses, but the idea of plants having souls seems like quite a stretch to me. I haven't noticed that verse before.

I would also like to point out Genesis 2:7 "And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." The Bible never applies this idea of the "breath of life" or "a living soul" to plants and animals which is another reason I believe only humans have souls. However, now I know that the Pearl of Great Price does in fact apply this to plants.

Interesting

 

There seems to be general agreement on this thread that these creatures have souls. In what way do you find it interesting? 

[person0]

11 hours ago, Larry Cotrell said:

The Bible never applies this idea of the "breath of life" or "a living soul" to plants and animals which is another reason I believe only humans have souls.

Genesis 6:17 (emphasis added)

Quote

And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die.

Genesis 7:15, 21-22 (emphasis added)

Quote

And they went in unto Noah into the ark, two and two of all flesh, wherein is the breath of life.

And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man:

All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died.

While it does not apply this terminology directly to plants, it does in fact apply it to animals.  I would have pointed this out earlier, but I assumed you might not consider the breath of life to be a term referring to ones spirit/soul.

[Larry Cotrell]

30 minutes ago, person0 said:

Genesis 6:17 (emphasis added)

Genesis 7:15, 21-22 (emphasis added)

While it does not apply this terminology directly to plants, it does in fact apply it to animals.  I would have pointed this out earlier, but I assumed you might not consider the breath of life to be a term referring to ones spirit/soul.

Again interesting, maybe I'll have to think on it a little more.

43 minutes ago, Mike said:

There seems to be general agreement on this thread that these creatures have souls. In what way do you find it interesting? 

I just find the passage from Moses interesting, I never knew anyone thought plants had souls.

Edited July 17, 2017 by Larry Cotrell

[Mike]

13 hours ago, Snigmorder said:

Not just animals, but plants too. 

"And out of the ground made I, the Lord God, to grow every tree, naturally, that is pleasant to the sight of man; and man could behold it. And it became also a living soul. For it was spiritual in the day that I created it; for it remaineth in the sphere in which I, God, created it;" - Moses 3:9

I was just wondering what "for it remaineth in the sphere..." means? Do you think it means (for example) that the soul of what we would consider to be a lower-order organism does not develop, or progress, etc., to a higher-order organism?

Edited July 17, 2017 by Mike

[person0]

20 minutes ago, Mike said:

I was just wondering what "for it remained in the sphere..." means? Do you think it means (for example) that the soul of what we would consider to be a lower-order organism does not develop, or progress, etc., to a higher-order organism?

I think it means this:

Quote

All truth is independent in that sphere in which God has placed it, to act for itself, as all intelligence also; otherwise there is no existence. (D&C 93:30)

I think sphere essentially refers to dominion.  For example, Man is on the sphere of earth (literal and figurative I suppose).  While on earth we have dominion over all, and agency.  Plants are also on the sphere of the earth, their capabilities are more limited, but they can grow, spread, etc.  I think you could even postulate that the nutrients produced by the earth are within their dominion.  Animals are here on the earth, they are more mobile, some eat plants, some eat other animals, some migrate, some hibernate, that could be considered their dominion.  All are acting for themselves, but within the confines of where God has placed them.

[Mike]

52 minutes ago, person0 said:

I think it means this:

I think sphere essentially refers to dominion.  For example, Man is on the sphere of earth (literal and figurative I suppose).  While on earth we have dominion over all, and agency.  Plants are also on the sphere of the earth, their capabilities are more limited, but they can grow, spread, etc.  I think you could even postulate that the nutrients produced by the earth are within their dominion.  Animals are here on the earth, they are more mobile, some eat plants, some eat other animals, some migrate, some hibernate, that could be considered their dominion.  All are acting for themselves, but within the confines of where God has placed them.

Hmmm. I am more puzzled, I think. I found Moses 3:9 difficult; and I find D&C 93:30 even more difficult. The last sentence of Moses 3:9  which I originally referred to is problematic for me because each phrase separated by the semi-colon begins with "for" which comes across to me as "because". At first I thought the verse made sense in the context of this thread and if ["...every tree...became also a living soul for (because) it was spirit(ual) in the day that I created it;"] But the second part of the last sentence threw me for a loop: ["for (because) it remaineth in the sphere in which I, God, created it..."] as I said earlier because the second phrase doesn't seem to explain the preceding phrase or even the whole preceding part of the verse as I would expect a phrase that begins with "for" (because) to do. Hence my original question. 

To make it worse for me, by combining all of this with D&C 93:30 I'm left trying to understand how ["truth is independent in that sphere (a globe (?), a dominion (?), a domain or area of being (?)) ...to act for itself, as all intelligence also, otherwise there is no existence,"] has anything to do with Moses 3:9.  It leaves me wondering how to relate "every tree" to "truth". The two verses don't feel like they have much of anything to do with each other. Trust me, I'm not trying to debate this. I'm trying to comprehend it. 

 

Edited July 17, 2017 by Mike

[Snigmorder]

2 hours ago, Mike said:

I was just wondering what "for it remaineth in the sphere..." means? Do you think it means (for example) that the soul of what we would consider to be a lower-order organism does not develop, or progress, etc., to a higher-order organism?

Here's how I understand it.

"And out of the ground made I, the Lord God, to grow every tree, naturally, that is pleasant to the sight of man;" (First we see that God caused plants to grow from the ground in the garden of Eden.)

"and man could behold it." (we see here that, that which was made in the spirit is now made manifest on earth)

"And it became also a living soul. For it was spiritual in the day that I created it;" (essentially saying: it became a living soul, because I had already created it in the spirit. Or, here's why it could be a soul at all, because I had already made it in the spirit)

"for it remaineth in the sphere in which I, God, created it," (This could simply mean, that the living things which were made in the spirit, remained in the spirit until their time on earth came. Sphere means manner of existence. For example, we live in a mortal sphere or probationary sphere, and the spirit plants live in a spiritual sphere.)

"yea, even all things which I prepared for the use of man;" (Self-explanatory.)

 

Here's what I make of section 93:21, 23-32

21 "And now, verily I say unto you, I was in the beginning with the Father, and am the Firstborn;"

23 "Ye were also in the beginning with the Father; that which is Spirit, even the Spirit of truth;"

24 "And truth is knowledge of things as they are, and as they were, and as they are to come;"(Truth is the Plan of Salvation and every law, ordinance, and principle that proceedeth forth from the mouth of God. The truth remains the same from age to age, and men are saved if they believe the truth, but damned if they believe not the truth.)

25 "And whatsoever is more or less than this is the spirit of that wicked one who was a liar from the beginning."

26 "The Spirit of truth is of God. I am the Spirit of truth, and John bore record of me, saying: He received a fulness of truth, yea, even of all truth;" (Christ went from grace to grace and obtained salvation by obtaining truth.)

27 "And no man receiveth a fulness unless he keepeth his commandments."

28 "He that keepeth his commandments receiveth truth and light, until he is glorified in truth and knoweth all things."

29 "Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be." (One of the great truths of our universe, is that it is bursting with intelligent beings, and there are certain things which cannot be changed, such as their eternal nature.)

30 "All truth is independent in that sphere in which God has placed it, to act for itself, as all intelligence also; otherwise there is no existence." (I take this to mean that within this mortal sphere, the truth exists regardless of whether we know it or not, or whether we believe it or not. The truth will have its way, and intelligences will have their way. Without this sphere of choice provided to us by our Father, we simply are in a state of stagnation and idleness. Indeed, Adam and Eve lived in a state of damnation until they interacted with the moral choice provided them.)

31 "Behold, here is the agency of man, and here is the condemnation of man; because that which was from the beginning is plainly manifest unto them, and they receive not the light (truth.)"

32 "And every man whose spirit receiveth not the light is under condemnation."