RooTheMormon

An LDS Vegetarian/Vegan???

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I am seriously considering going vegetarian, or maybe even vegan.

Why?

Well first off I love animals, and I hate their lives. Birth, grow in a pen with crap for food and no love, die, get eaten.

I have chickens and I love them literally to death. In the case of me starving, I would find something else to eat. 

So latey ive been considering this, but also for other reasons:

a vegan lifestyle is actually very healthy if you get the protein you need, and it has been shown to have so many amazing benefits.

And I know your thinking im only young and not to worry, but its extremely important to me.

I am also a dancer, so a slimmer body is preferred.

But I was worried that it would be bad in terms of the word of wisdom, and also that God gave us these animals to eat. I just think maybe theres a rule about this that I havent heard about?

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12 minutes ago, RooTheMormon said:

In the case of me starving, I would find something else to eat. 

I am not entirely certain that I wouldn't resort to cannibalism of the dead if I were in a starving life or death situation.  I pray that I never have to experience that choice, although there have been some who have.  However,  I would down your chickens without a second thought . . . in front of you . . . while you starved.  I would also have no problem drinking coffee, tea, and alcoholic beverages if it were a true life or death scenario.  Once again, hopefully I will never be placed in such a terrible situation.

12 minutes ago, RooTheMormon said:

But I was worried that . . . God gave us these animals to eat.

I agree with this line of thinking.  However, as long as you don't try to convince other people that they should be vegetarian or vegan then I have no beef with you.  Get it beef!  Hahaha. ;)

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The word of wisdom definitely says go vegetarian unless in times of cold, winter, or famine.

People will bring up the comma added in 1921. But that was due to a change in vernacular. The Church previous to 1921 interpreted the passage as vegetarian. "Only" in their day meant "execpt" and no comma was needed.

Section 49:18-19 says anyone preventing meat consumprion is not of God. (I'm redacting my previous statement EDIT) I went and read the circumstances under which section 49 was given and it was given to a convert who used to be a shaker. According to the header, shakers would prevent you from getting married and some from eating meat.

For your reading pleasure, here's a website full of statements from church leaders and scriptures about meat consumption: http://josephsmithfoundation.org/faqs/11-meat-should-we-eat-meat-if-so-how-often-and-when/

Edited by Snigmorder

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1 hour ago, RooTheMormon said:

But I was worried that it would be bad in terms of the word of wisdom, and also that God gave us these animals to eat. I just think maybe theres a rule about this that I havent heard about?

I know of no rule in the gospel that demands we eat any given thing. I do know that the gospel teaches us that we should be wise.

There are 5 "rules" to the Word of Wisdom. Abstain from coffee. Abstain from tea. Abstain from alcohol. Abstain from tobacco. Abstain from illegal drugs. Take care of your body, eat healthy as best you can, and be wise.

That's it. Anyone else claiming "rules" is blowing smoke. 

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3 minutes ago, Snigmorder said:

Definitely. Of course it's not a commandment, but words of wisdom.

But it doesn't say that at all. So how is it definitely? It says sparingly. The last I looked vegetarianism/veganism doesn't allow for the sparing eating of meat, by definition. That's like being a virgin who has sex sparingly. It's definition-ally impossible.

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15 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

But it doesn't say that at all. So how is it definitely? It says sparingly. The last I looked vegetarianism/veganism doesn't allow for the sparing eating of meat, by definition. That's like being a virgin who has sex sparingly. It's definition-ally impossible.

Here's the complete statement

"Yea, flesh also of beasts and of the fowls of the air, I, the Lord, have ordained for the use of man with thanksgiving; nevertheless they are to be used sparingly; and it is pleasing unto me that they should not be used, only in times of winter, or of cold, or famine."

This could be read in a couple of ways. First way could be to think of the bold as a definition of the underline. As in "sparingly means, bold."

The second way could be to think of the underline as the basic attitude towards meat a saint it should have. And the bold is what pleases the Lord in regards to meat.

 I trend towards the first, which definitely means vegetarian. This is how I read the passage:

"Yea, flesh also of beasts and of the fowls of the air, I, the Lord, have ordained for the use of man with thanksgiving; nevertheless it is pleasing unto me that they should not be used, only in times of winter, or of cold, or famine."

But that's just me. I don't have any particular conviction as to whether people should eat meat or not.

Edited by Snigmorder

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I don't think there is anything inherently immoral about vegetarianism. If that's a route you want to go, I don't see a problem.

For myself, if I were to decide to go to a vegetarian diet, I would make sure to eat meat every few months, just so I could honestly say I was not 100% vegetarian. In the words of Doctrine and Covenants 49:18-19,

Quote

And whoso forbiddeth to abstain from meats, that man should not eat the same, is not ordained of God; for, behold, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the air, and that which cometh of the earth, is ordained for the use of man for food and for raiment, and that he might have in abundance.

I have no problem with vegetarianism, only with someone teaching that it's a "higher" or "more holy" way.

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@RooTheMormon,

If you want to go vegetarian, there is no commandment against it.  But there is also no commandment requiring it either.  It's entirely a choice for you to make on your own after looking at all the available data.  Follow the advice of your doctors and parents (yes, your parents) with regard to vegetarianism.  And do a LOT of your own research.  Make sure you hear / read both sides.

One caveat I'd give you is that if you choose to go that route, you need to be very knowledgeable about nutrition.  No, it isn't just about protein either.  There are other nutrients that are most common in meat.  Others much more common in dairy or eggs.  You REALLY need to know what you're doing.  If you don't, it can be quite unhealthy.

At your age, I'm going to guess that your parents are buying most of your food (if not all).  So, they also need to be willing to go along with it.

The scriptures tell us that meat is ordained for the use of man.  The D&C specifically says to eat it sparingly.  That is a healthy diet.  How sparingly?  Well, that will vary for each individual. Given that you want to stay skinny for dancing, less fat will probably be desirable.  But you can also get fat from certain fruits and vegetables (avocado comes to mind).

Now, the political side.  If you're doing it because of cruelty to animals and so forth, depending on where you live, you can also seek out various farms that advertise naturally or compassionately raised animals.  You'll find that it will be a lot more expensive.  But so will a healthy vegetarian diet.  To get all the nutrients you need, you have to buy more expensive vegetables.  Some of it you won't like.  Some of this stuff you don't get as much benefit if you eat raw, so preparation is also a factor.

Now, if you want my personal opinion: I wouldn't bother.  I'd certainly follow the rule of eating meat "sparingly," but to cut it out entirely?  It would be too big of a change for little benefit and some level of risk if you don't know what you're doing.  The benefits that I see can be obtained much more easily by employing other methods -- more traditional methods.

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58 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

@RooTheMormon,

If you want to go vegetarian, there is no commandment against it.  But there is also no commandment requiring it either.  It's entirely a choice for you to make on your own after looking at all the available data.  Follow the advice of your doctors and parents (yes, your parents) with regard to vegetarianism.  And do a LOT of your own research.  Make sure you hear / read both sides.

One caveat I'd give you is that if you choose to go that route, you need to be very knowledgeable about nutrition.  No, it isn't just about protein either.  There are other nutrients that are most common in meat.  Others much more common in dairy or eggs.  You REALLY need to know what you're doing.  If you don't, it can be quite unhealthy.

At your age, I'm going to guess that your parents are buying most of your food (if not all).  So, they also need to be willing to go along with it.

The scriptures tell us that meat is ordained for the use of man.  The D&C specifically says to eat it sparingly.  That is a healthy diet.  How sparingly?  Well, that will vary for each individual. Given that you want to stay skinny for dancing, less fat will probably be desirable.  But you can also get fat from certain fruits and vegetables (avocado comes to mind).

Now, the political side.  If you're doing it because of cruelty to animals and so forth, depending on where you live, you can also seek out various farms that advertise naturally or compassionately raised animals.  You'll find that it will be a lot more expensive.  But so will a healthy vegetarian diet.  To get all the nutrients you need, you have to buy more expensive vegetables.  Some of it you won't like.  Some of this stuff you don't get as much benefit if you eat raw, so preparation is also a factor.

Now, if you want my personal opinion: I wouldn't bother.  I'd certainly follow the rule of eating meat "sparingly," but to cut it out entirely?  It would be too big of a change for little benefit and some level of risk if you don't know what you're doing.  The benefits that I see can be obtained much more easily by employing other methods -- more traditional methods.

Thanks! And yes my parents are okay with it. I have everything figured out regarding my nutrition & such!

And thanks everyone else as well! 

And @MormonGator I think God wants us to love all of his creatures. I am not a fool for feeling this way.

Edited by RooTheMormon

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11 hours ago, Snigmorder said:

Here's the complete statement

"Yea, flesh also of beasts and of the fowls of the air, I, the Lord, have ordained for the use of man with thanksgiving; nevertheless they are to be used sparingly; and it is pleasing unto me that they should not be used, only in times of winter, or of cold, or famine."

This could be read in a couple of ways. First way could be to think of the bold as a definition of the underline. As in "sparingly means, bold."

The second way could be to think of the underline as the basic attitude towards meat a saint it should have. And the bold is what pleases the Lord in regards to meat.

 I trend towards the first, which definitely means vegetarian. This is how I read the passage:

"Yea, flesh also of beasts and of the fowls of the air, I, the Lord, have ordained for the use of man with thanksgiving; nevertheless it is pleasing unto me that they should not be used, only in times of winter, or of cold, or famine."

But that's just me. I don't have any particular conviction as to whether people should eat meat or not.

"I, the Lord, have ordained for the use of man with thanksgiving," reads to me as contradictory to your take. And so I hold to my response: "definitely" is highly suspect. Even "probably" is suspect in my opinion. But "definitely" holds no water.

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So, am I right in thinking that "vegetarianism" is the new "caffeine" debate in LDS circles now?

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4 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

So, am I right in thinking that "vegetarianism" is the new "caffeine" debate in LDS circles now?

That is not my perception. There have been an abundance of talks in conference, etc., where the brethren have specifically told us that we should avoid using substances that are addictive. Whether one interprets that to mean complete abstinence or limited use is open to debate, but the idea that caffeine should be avoided at some level isn't exactly difficult to support. I suspect if polled that this would be the common stance among all the church leadership.

Vegetarianism has a few obscure and dated comments one can find in theoretical support thereof. Not in the same class at all.

I also suspect that if one were to poll the membership that a great percentage of them would support (perhaps hypocritically, as I myself do) the idea that we should limit our caffeine usage to rarely or never. I suspect that those supporting vegetarianism would be a relatively small percentage.

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I'm not talking about doctrinal accuracy.  I'm talking about the debate about the doctrine.  Let me alter your post and you'll catch my meaning.

7 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

There have been an abundance of talks in conference, etc., where the scriptures have specifically told us that we should eat meat sparingly. Whether one interprets that to mean complete abstinence or limited use is open to debate, but the idea that meat should be avoided at some level isn't exactly difficult to support. I suspect if polled that this would be the common stance among all the church leadership.

Edited by Guest

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33 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

There have been an abundance of talks in conference, etc., where the scriptures have specifically told us that we should eat meat sparingly. Whether one interprets that to mean complete abstinence or limited use is open to debate, but the idea that meat should be avoided at some level isn't exactly difficult to support. I suspect if polled that this would be the common stance among all the church leadership.

It's not commonly open to debate whether "eat meat sparingly" means complete abstinence or not. Because, very literally, "sparingly" and "abstinence" mean different things.

But I'm not sure what you're arguing here. I am simply saying that my perception is that there are lots of people who believe we should abstain from caffeine. There are very few who believe we should be vegetarians. That's my perception. You swapping words around in my post doesn't change my perception.

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3 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

It's not commonly open to debate whether "eat meat sparingly" means complete abstinence or not. Because, very literally, "sparingly" and "abstinence" mean different things.

But I'm not sure what you're arguing here. I am simply saying that my perception is that there are lots of people who believe we should abstain from caffeine. There are very few who believe we should be vegetarians. That's my perception. You swapping words around in my post doesn't change my perception.

TFP,

Remember that I share your position on this topic.  So, I'm not arguing your sources, logic, or conclusions.

I just found the "pattern of the debate" between you and @Snigmorder (as well as others here and there on other threads) to parallel the same types of arguments I hear when we get onto the caffeine issue.  And I found it amusing enough to try to point that out to those on the thread.

Edited by Guest

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10 hours ago, RooTheMormon said:

Thanks! And yes my parents are okay with it. I have everything figured out regarding my nutrition & such!

And thanks everyone else as well! 

And @MormonGator I think God wants us to love all of his creatures. I am not a fool for feeling this way.

Just playing Roo. I am a vegetarian. 

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13 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said:

But it doesn't say that at all. So how is it definitely? It says sparingly. The last I looked vegetarianism/veganism doesn't allow for the sparing eating of meat, by definition. That's like being a virgin who has sex sparingly. It's definition-ally impossible.

@Snigmorder suggested that being vegetarian is definitely what the scriptures suggest unless there is cold and famine (a need for extra heat perhaps or a food shortage). This is not forbidding the use of meat, but setting boundaries for when it is pleasing. To use your own sexual analogy it is like say that God is against sexual relations unless those involved are married to each other at the time. The sexual relation is not forbidden, we are not commanded to all be celibate, but guidelines are set around the use of the procreative process.However, it would not really be inaccurate either to say that we are definitely supposed to be celibate until we are married.

 

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