Allowing others to sin for your benefit

[Fether]

Just a thought experiment I have considered before.

you are at college and it is Sunday. All your roommates are LDS. One is inactive and one day you get home from church and you see that your inactive roommate bought pizza for everyone. Are you justified in eating it because you didn't buy it?

IF YES: what if he asks everyone before hand if he wants them to buy pizza for them and asks what kind of pizza they like, are you justified then to tell him which pizza to buy? Or is that breaking the sabbath?

IF NO (to originak question): If that is wrong, is it ok to allow others that are not Christian to work for you on the sabbath and for you to get it off?

 

BONUS Qs:

- Is working on the sabbath a sin, or just a suggestion of something to avoid for us to receive greater blessings?

- Would the answer to the original question be different if the one buying pizza was not LDS?

- Is the concept of allowing others to sin for your benefit evil?

 

Explanatations of the why to your answers is required

Edited July 22, 2017 by Fether

[Just_A_Guy]

In the most technical sense, anything that takes us away from God's ideal for us is sin--but some sins are more harmful than others.  "Sin" is a such loaded term (it connotes, in colloquial usage, intentional violations of relatively arbitrary bright-line prohibitions; rather than negligent failure to fulfill injunctions with clearly defineable benefits) that I'm not sure it's a particularly useful term in this sort of discussion.

The bottom line for me is that indulging in unnecessary commerce directly, undermines the spirit of the Sabbath for me.  Encouraging others to undermine their own Sabbaths compromises my own commitment to the theoretical ideal of a Sabbath, though perhaps less so than if I had violated the Sabbath myself.

With regard to the scenario of others covering my Sunday shift--if it's a simple matter of me having told my boss "I can't work on Sundays.  It's your restaurant, and your other employees are their own individuals, so it's none of my business whether you guys choose to open or not on Sundays when I'm not there"--I don't see a problem with that.  Other employees are free to stick up for their own Sabbaths, as I do mine.  

But if some staffing emergency happens, and my boss says "JAG, I'm really really sorry, but I need you to come in today"--I'd feel uncomfortable calling off-duty workers and directly asking them to cover my shift.

[Guest]

I don't know what I would do.

If I were on exchanges with the missionaries and we were all invited to eat at an investigator or less active's house and the investigator/less active had ordered pizza for everyone, I would probably shut up and eat the pizza.  I think in that case, the Lord would want me to take care of the feelings of the less active member or investigator and thereby keep the lines of communication open to further help this person.  Besides, you don't want to be "that guy" who goes around lecturing everyone on their personal righteousness and pointing out sin when the other person is trying to do something nice (I have had one of these guys in EVERY ward I have been in, the guy who stays active to drive everyone else inactive).

That said, if it is a roommate who decided to buy pizza for everyone on Sunday, this is a little different.  First, the roommate probably should have known better.  Second, there is a risk that this could become a habit - the less active guy buys everyone lunch on Sunday.  You would not want this to happen.  I feel like something should be said or done to let the roommate know that this is not a good development.  It is hard for such a communication to be undertaken seriously if you are yelling at your roommate about buying pizza on Sunday while eating a slice of that same pizza.  I could see skipping out in that case, to make the point that you are not going to just let this become a course of dealing.

Yes, working on the Sabbath and spending money on the Sabbath is a sin and should be avoided.  This is not like watching TV on Sunday (which is more of a gray area) - Church leaders have made it very clear that working and shopping on the Sabbath are not OK (with the exception, of course, of when you absolutely cannot avoid working - e.g., you are going to get fired if you don't go in.  What is the phrase - "Ox in the mire" or something?)

Edited July 22, 2017 by DoctorLemon

[Mike]

Hmmm. I dislike pin-down approaches to the Sabbath, although I fully appreciate the utility of discussion. I prefer the Lord's summation in Mark 2:27.

[MrShorty]

I am so uncertain of exactly what is right and wrong on the Sabbath, I don't know what to believe somedays. Because of that uncertainty, I tend to make my own decisions, but refuse to transfer my decisions to others.

I would not buy pizza myself on Sunday, but, If a family member/friend/roommate/etc. is comfortable buying pizza and wants to share, I'd love to have some. Whether I would pitch in my $5 towards the purchase of said pizza will probably be decided on a day by day and case by case basis. I am not certain that is all internally consistent.

I don't know about working on the Sabbath. As long as we are willing to support, encourage, and even hero worship (a little) professional athletes who must work on Sunday, I cannot see that working on Sunday is a "sin", which means that I would not have any trouble taking Sunday shifts or asking others to cover Sunday shifts. I like having Sundays off, though, and I like being able to attend my Sunday meetings, so I would do what I could to attend meetings whenever possible. Again, this may not be all internally consistent, but I don't think our overall message is internally consistent as long as we allow professional athletes to choose for themselves to pursue their Sunday careers. I think this question boils down to "personal choice".

Perhaps because the main example is about working/buying on the Sabbath, and I am not convinced that working/buying is universally sinful, It is difficult to feel out the more generic "is it acceptable to benefit from others sins", I am not sure what to make of the more generic question. In Nevada, everyone benefits from taxes collected from the gaming industry. In most other states, there is some benefit to all from taxes collected on tobacco and alcohol products. Perhaps some other, different examples of how I might benefit from others' sins to think through...

 

[person0]

2 hours ago, Fether said:

One is inactive and one day you get home from church and you see that your inactive roommate bought pizza for everyone. Are you justified in eating it because you didn't buy it?

The sin has already been committed at this point, you did not participate in the commission of the sin, and you did not choose to break the Sabbath in that way.  If you are invited to do so, it is okay if you eat the food.  Consider Paul's words in regard to a similar conundrum about eating meat sacrificed to false idols.

Quote

As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.

But meat commendeth us not to God: for neither, if we eat, are we the better; neither, if we eat not, are we the worse.

(1 Cor. 8: 4,8)

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2 hours ago, Fether said:

what if he asks everyone before hand if he wants them to buy pizza for them and asks what kind of pizza they like, are you justified then to tell him which pizza to buy? Or is that breaking the sabbath?

I would not participate in any form of decision regarding the purchase of the pizza, except perhaps to recommend that we prepare food from the pantry, or eat leftovers instead.  By participating in the decision I would be actively supporting the decision to purchase the pizza, and therefore would be breaking the Sabbath myself.  It would be similar to when Paul consented to the death of Stephen, even though he did not participate directly in the stoning:

Quote

And when the blood of thy martyr Stephen was shed, I also was standing by, and consenting unto his death, and kept the raiment of them that slew him.

(Acts 22:20)

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2 hours ago, Fether said:

is it ok to allow others that are not Christian to work for you on the sabbath and for you to get it off?

No.  Others have not made the baptismal covenant to keep the Sabbath day holy, however, you having the knowledge and the covenant are breaking the law by having them participate.  This one is simple to understand when you read the written declaration of the commandment to keep the Sabbath day holy:

Quote

But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

(Exodus 20:10)

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2 hours ago, Fether said:

Is working on the sabbath a sin, or just a suggestion of something to avoid for us to receive greater blessings?

It is a sin.  It is one of the ten commandments.  God saw it as so important that he listed it among the top ten things for the covenant people of Israel not to do, among the other 9 are adultery and theft.

2 hours ago, Fether said:

Would the answer to the original question be different if the one buying pizza was not LDS?

 None of the answers would be different as both the Corinthians passage as well as the commandment in Exodus could apply regardless of if the person was LDS or not.

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2 hours ago, Fether said:

Is the concept of allowing others to sin for your benefit evil?

It depends.  In saying 'allow' you indicate having a reasonable ability to prevent it; if you do not prevent it, you are in the wrong.  If you have the means to prevent or discourage the sins of another, and never do so because you are receiving a benefit from their sin, then you are also guilty to an extent.  The Jews who called out to crucify Christ and set Barabbas free gave their input, and even called that the blood of Christ be upon them and their children. Pilate washed his hands, symbolic, yet ineffectual.  All participants in the decision were guilty:

Quote

"One called Pontius Pilate washed his hands of this man called King of the Jews. Oh foolish, spineless Pilate! Did you really believe that water could cleanse such guilt?"

(Hands - Thomas S. Monson)

On the other hand, if you yourself are not doing the allowing, nor are participating in the decision, and yet are benefiting from the sin of another person, this is not your fault, nor is it on your conscience.  Two examples:  I once ordered an item that took a couple of weeks to arrive.  The item was delivered on Sunday.  I did not choose to have it delivered that day, and could not have prevented it in that case.  I benefited by having the item sooner than expected, but I am not held responsible for the action.  In another case, my grandfather was once a tobacco farmer; he grew tobacco which would eventually be used in cigarettes.  This was his livelihood, the distributors who purchased his tobacco could have chosen to sell the tobacco to processors who would use it in more appropriate ways; my grandfather did not have any say in their decision.  My grandfather's patriarchal blessing promised him that his tobacco crops would come in every year so long as he remained faithful in the Church.  So once again, it depends.

Edited July 22, 2017 by person0

[zil]

I recommend that everyone turn to the Bible Dictionary and Topical Guide and read everything found therein which includes the word "sabbath" or a variant thereof (e.g. including sabbatical year).  It shouldn't take that long, maybe a few scripture-study sessions.  Take notes during the process, without selection, just note what each reference has to say about the sabbath (or related topic).  After you're done with your first set of raw notes, merge those into groupings / concepts - I did this twice (raw notes > organized notes > re-organized notes).  I did this, and when I was done I had 8 topics or groupings related to the sabbath and had learned far more than I imagined I could (I thought I already understood the commandments related to the sabbath and the reasons for them - I was wrong).

My notes fit on one side of a tabloid(ish) (A3) sheet of paper.

[zil]

PS: Hiring someone on Sunday to be your pizza beard (which is basically what you're doing if you send another to shop for you) is as much a sin as doing it yourself - perhaps more since you're causing an additional person to violate the sabbath (not just the pizza shop employees, but also your beard).

[Fether]

3 hours ago, zil said:

PS: Hiring someone on Sunday to be your pizza beard (which is basically what you're doing if you send another to shop for you) is as much a sin as doing it yourself - perhaps more since you're causing an additional person to violate the sabbath (not just the pizza shop employees, but also your beard).

Yes, but in this  particular scenario the friend is going on his own free will and the question is whether you would eat it or not when he got back with it

(update: i realize now you also might be referencing comments made)

Edited July 23, 2017 by Fether

[zil]

2 minutes ago, Fether said:

Yes, but in the scenario the friend is going on his own free will and the question is whether you would eat it or not when he got back with it

With follow-up questions which included options closer to the "pizza beard" scenario (if not it exactly).

Anywho, my primary answer is my first post in this thread - nothing else anyone can say will substitute for that.  (Not that I object to the discussion, or anything of the sort, just saying that and the PS are my response to all your questions.)

[Ironhold]

My parents, and several others, rely on coupons to help make ends meet. 

Most coupon inserts are published in the Sunday editions of the various local newspapers. 

That means going for newspapers on Sunday to make ends meet. 

[seashmore]

My old roommate was inactive. She would order Domino's, sometimes on Sundays. She would usually utilize a deal on two pies and offer some to me. I would gratefully partake. Bonus: we live in an area with a high Hispanic population, and according to the website, Jesús was almost always the one making the pizza on Sundays. 

Also, I've learned that it isn't good for me to work on Sundays, unless the duties would be Sabbath appropriate. (Such as when I ran activities or did personal companion care for people in nursing homes.) My exception to this is Mother's Day/holidays, if they need me to. If I'm in town, I won't have family to spend it with anyway, so if my working allows someone else to spend the special day with their family, I consider it a good deed, as long as I can still attend services.

Edited July 23, 2017 by seashmore

[mrmarklin]

I wouldn't think twice about eating this pizza. I would only thank the roommate and offer to defray cost. 

 

 

[omegaseamaster75]

On 7/22/2017 at 11:59 AM, Fether said:

Just a thought experiment I have considered before.

you are at college and it is Sunday. All your roommates are LDS. One is inactive and one day you get home from church and you see that your inactive roommate bought pizza for everyone. Are you justified in eating it because you didn't buy it?

IF YES: what if he asks everyone before hand if he wants them to buy pizza for them and asks what kind of pizza they like, are you justified then to tell him which pizza to buy? Or is that breaking the sabbath?

 

It is not breaking the Sabbath and Yes I would put my request in.

On 7/22/2017 at 11:59 AM, Fether said:

BONUS Qs:

- Is working on the sabbath a sin, or just a suggestion of something to avoid for us to receive greater blessings?

 

In short no, while you should avoid it if at all possible you should meet the requirements of your work.

On 7/22/2017 at 11:59 AM, Fether said:

- Would the answer to the original question be different if the one buying pizza was not LDS?

 

Why would the religion of the person buying the pizza be a factor at all in any way?

On 7/22/2017 at 11:59 AM, Fether said:

- Is the concept of allowing others to sin for your benefit evil?

Explanatations of the why to your answers is required

These are all gotcha questions, and the type of thing that people get worked up about for no reason.  Your observance of the Sabbath should be personal to you the individual.