Sweety D

LDS culture problem

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I'm married, have kids, hold a current temple recommend, held and hold callings in leadership .. the typical LDS person I suppose. However, I have one major problem with our community (not our faith). I hate our culture! Not all of it, I say that mostly for the shock and awe factor. 

Let me explain. We have counsel on Word of Wisdom, modesty, R-rated movies, monthly temple attendance, all great counsel. But we need to stop citing things as Thus saith the Lord. We have created this culture that has some people actually believing Mormons shouldn't or can't watch an R-rated movies or drink caffeine or wear a 2 piece bathing suit. All of which is nonsense. There is nothing doctrinal about any of these things (and many more I haven't mentioned). I am not suggesting it's bad advice to adhere to these ideas. But that's all they are, advice. 

In 1986 at the Priesthood session of General Conference Ezra Taft Benson gave the talk now called "To the Youth of the Noble Birthright". He specifically says "Tonight I would like to speak directly to you young men of the Aaronic Priesthood" he goes on to say he's grateful the fathers are there. But clearly says he's speaking to the Aaronic Priesthood. It's in this talk that he counsels young men to not watch R-rated movies. Even if you take this as doctrine, it's counsel for the YM. Therefore, it's not going to prevent anyone from getting a temple recommend. It's well known (and often discussed on this site) you are not asked about this during temple recommend interviews. To add to this, YM are not even asked about this during their limited use temple recommend interviews. 

In 1965 the For the Strength of Youth was written and specifically talked about Young Women not wearing bikinis. Today's it's not so clear. Either way this is great counsel for YW. And if adults want to follow this counsel, great! But there is nothing doctrinal about it, concerning adults. Of course, setting examples are important. I'm not arguing that. These 2 examples I discussed are for youth. Adults don't need to be governed so tightly that we have doctrine on such trivial aspects of our life. 

Families or couples/people that don't attend ward functions/parties are sometimes considered active but not fully invested or engaged. I have known couples that are antisocial and never attend things like ward Christmas parties or weddings of people they've known for years. Or maybe they don't volunteer to drive kids to girls/scout camp. Or they don't help with "name a LDS event". Often they are looked at just slightly different. People will say, "I'm not sure if they have a strong testimony." And "I saw Sister Jane Doe on Facebook, she and her husband went to Hawaii and she wore a bikini." As if that's a sin! 

We have created a culture that expects obedience to made up ideas. I didn't even get into monthly temple attendance or caffeine, but that's obvious. And for what it's worth, I don't drink caffeine. But I choose not to because of health reasons. Not because some ridiculous culture suggests I shouldn't. I wish we all would stop these shameful judgements that are passed on others especially when they are doctrinally incorrect. This post isn't because I feel judged or feel confused or bad about any situation. It's because I see others deeply affected by this culture that exists within our faith. It needs to stop. 

Pay your tithing, go to the temple when you can, do your home/visiting teaching and fulfill your calling as best as you can. Obey the commandments and love your family and neighbors. Everything else is just noise. Even if you aren't judging others on some of these examples I have mentioned, but you are talking about them as doctrine, you are causing a problem. Stop it

Edited by Sweety D

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Several years ago I was in a very similar boat to you.  It was miserable. Eventually I did find that not all people were like that, and I should give each individual a chance to show what they were like.  That's not denying that some people are like that, but also not saying it's everyone.   Ironically, I needed to quit stereotype judging.  It's cheesy to say, but the only person I can change anything about is me.  

For what it's worth, the issues you're talking about are really less prevalent once you get out of Utah/ID/AZ.  

On 7/23/2017 at 9:04 PM, Sweety D said:

And "I saw Sister Jane Doe on Facebook, she and her husband went to Hawaii and she wore a bikini." As if that's a sin! 

But I don't like going to Hawaii at all... :P

Edited by Jane_Doe

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Jane_Doe, funny that it's your name. To be clear I don't feel judged at all. This post is about the many people that tell me they feel this way. I reside in CA, but work has me travel a lot (unfortunately I have to be gone on Sundays a lot). So I attend church in Utah and Arizona (and all over the world) a lot (nearly half my time in years past.). To me, this seems to be a theme in the Western US. I don't see this as a huge issue in most foreign countries.

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1 minute ago, Sweety D said:

Jane_Doe, funny that it's your name. To be clear I don't feel judged at all. This post is about the many people that tell me they feel this way. I reside in CA, but work has me travel a lot (unfortunately I have to be gone on Sundays a lot). So I attend church in Utah and Arizona (and all over the world) a lot (nearly half my time in years past.). To me, this seems to be a theme in the Western US. I don't see this as a huge issue in most foreign countries.

The only people who can change people in UT are people in UT.  Or the same for every other state.  

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I have had someone blow up at me because I don't attend ward activities...okay she was in charge of such activities but still! She told me that I should not get a temple recommend. I work in the temple.

Our invitations to beach activities come with a reminder to wear lds appropriate swim wear..as I have never attended I am not sure but I am guessing, one piece.

i am also tired of people making up their own commandments. I know just the expression on their smug little faces before they pronounce what your doing to be 'apostate'. We should have an emocon for it! 

Edited by Sunday21

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8 hours ago, Jane_Doe said:

 

For what it's worth, the issues you're talking about are really less prevalent once you get out of Utah/ID/AZ.  

 

But I thought the problem was that the stronger members outside of the Mormon Corridor didn't do those sinful things while the all-is-well-in-Zioners loved their caffeine and scandalous swim suits. :D

 

Seriously, it's all a matter of perspective.

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1 minute ago, Backroads said:

But I thought the problem was that the stronger members outside of the Mormon Corridor didn't do those sinful things while the all-is-well-in-Zioners loved their caffeine and scandalous swim suits. :D

 

Seriously, it's all a matter of perspective.

Indeed...

It is also a perfect example of what was mentioned in Conference about  "Not judging someone because they Sin differently"

The OP is pointing out issues that some members have with following this...  But by so doing they become guilty of exactly the same problem.  They are rendering a judgement on others actions... and said actions are not technically a sin although we have been counseled not to do it.

Sadly many members want unconditional support for their weakness... but are unwilling to give such support when they see the weakness of their fellow saints.  We are all weak, we all sin, we all ignore council from time to time, and we all fail to live up to our responsibly to support one another from time to time.

We can let said weakness drive us away (under the guise of culture or other scapegoat) or we can know  that in the end we can only control ourselves, and that our judgement is between us and the Lord.

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The Ten Commandments of Thug Mormon Culture:

  1. Thou shalt not get excited by nor laugh at Studio C.
  2. Thou shalt not buy any Brandon Sanderson Novels and criticize any such fans when they mention his magic systems or world building skills.
  3. Thou shalt watch Disney movies and not comment on how less family friendly they've become since the death of Walt Disney.
  4. Thou shalt only go to the temple once a year.
  5. Thou shalt drink caffeinated soda during fast Sunday to curb your appetite.
  6. Thou shalt only watch rated R movies if they're really good.
  7. Thou shalt justify the wearing of bikinis when you find a set that really looks cute and you figure "it's modest enough."
  8. Thou shalt open your eyes during prayers at church because the kid in the next row is making goo-goo faces at you.
  9. Thou shalt go to the gun range until you can shoot like Porter Rockwell.
  10. Thou shalt only have 72-hr kits and forage off of other more prepared members of the ward during times of need.

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On 7/23/2017 at 10:04 PM, Sweety D said:

These 2 examples I disgusted are for youth.

You don't say...

Typo? or Freudian slip?

Edited by Guest

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I was just thinking about a recent Facebook group argument: Mormon Corridor vs The Rest of the Church. "You wicked people wear immodest swimwear/mock people who wear what you judge to be immodest swimwear/break the Sabbath/are Sabbath Pharisees/drink caffeine/are uptight about caffeine/JUDGY-JUDGE!" 

The opposing geography replied "no, we don't, you do!"

Leaving me very confused about who did what based on geography. Because geography don't lie.

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Just now, Backroads said:

I was just thinking about a recent Facebook group argument: Mormon Corridor vs The Rest of the Church. "You wicked people wear immodest swimwear/mock people who wear what you judge to be immodest swimwear/break the Sabbath/are Sabbath Pharisees/drink caffeine/are uptight about caffeine/JUDGY-JUDGE!" 

The opposing geography replied "no, we don't, you do!"

Leaving me very confused about who did what based on geography. Because geography don't lie.

It's really quite simple.  It's not fascism when WE do it.

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Just now, Carborendum said:

It's really quite simple.  It's not fascism when WE do it.

Sure, but you must understand each and every person in the argument had met the legendary One Person Who Represents Everyone. Who is, admittedly, a fascist.

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37 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

It is also a perfect example of what was mentioned in Conference about  "Not judging someone because they Sin differently"

The OP is pointing out issues that some members have with following this...

No the OP isn't.

On 7/23/2017 at 9:04 PM, Sweety D said:

Even if you aren't judging others on some of these examples I have mentioned, but you are talking about them as doctrine, you are causing a problem. Stop it

Apparently even the suggestion that one should not watch R-rated movies or wear bikinis is causing a problem. I'm not entirely clear on what that "problem" is. I assume it's that people are committing suicide or some such over it.

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3 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

No the OP isn't.

Apparently even the suggestion that one should not watch R-rated movies or wear bikinis is causing a problem. I'm not entirely clear on what that "problem" is. I assume it's that people are committing suicide or some such over it.

And how is that not sinning differently?

If I determine that the best way for me to follow the council given is to not watch R-rated movies or wear a bikini (and trust me no one want s to see that)

And the OP determine that the best way to follow the council given is to not talk about not watching R-rated movies or not wearing bikinis.

What makes his determination to be a superior and more correct?  Did we sustain him as an oracle of God?  I know I do not remember doing so.

He is simply a man that has chosen a different focus and he is no more correct then any other man.  And yet with no more authority then that he seeks to call anyone and everyone that thinks differently then him to repentance

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16 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

No the OP isn't.

Apparently even the suggestion that one should not watch R-rated movies or wear bikinis is causing a problem. I'm not entirely clear on what that "problem" is. I assume it's that people are committing suicide or some such over it.

Yeah, I'm not quiet sure what "talking about it like it's doctrine" means.  Heck, we can't even talk straight about what doctrine in the LDS world means.

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42 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

The Ten Commandments of Thug Mormon Culture:

  1. Thou shalt not get excited by nor laugh at Studio C.
  2. Thou shalt not buy any Brandon Sanderson Novels and criticize any such fans when they mention his magic systems or world building skills.
  3. Thou shalt watch Disney movies and not comment on how less family friendly they've become since the death of Walt Disney.
  4. Thou shalt only go to the temple once a year.
  5. Thou shalt drink caffeinated soda during fast Sunday to curb your appetite.
  6. Thou shalt only watch rated R movies if they're really good.
  7. Thou shalt justify the wearing of bikinis when you find a set that really looks cute and you figure "it's modest enough."
  8. Thou shalt open your eyes during prayers at church because the kid in the next row is making goo-goo faces at you.
  9. Thou shalt go to the gun range until you can shoot like Porter Rockwell.
  10. Thou shalt only have 72-hr kits and forage off of other more prepared members of the ward during times of need.

1. Ok

2. Ya got me there, I have no idea who that is. I didn't google, my bad.

3. I can't say I've ever done that. I'm so behind.

4. Check! 

5. Oh, Monsters for the WIN!!

6. Is there any other kind? :D

7. I look awful in a bikini, so I just don't wear 'em. I'm just doing the whole fig leaf thing 24 7 now. It's not so bad if you remember what poison ivy looks like. 

8.Oh, you should see the faces I make at the Bishopric!

9. Momma said I'd put my eye out and that is the debil!!!

10. I keep a 3 day assault pack stuffed with pogey bait and figet spinners, you know, for when you gotta "represent"! 

 

 

 

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I'm all for not judging individuals.  

But let's not pretend God is copacetic about people who deliberately expose themselves to graphic and gratuitous violence/sex/other immorality; and let's not pretend He doesn't notice when people are using sex appeal to draw attention to themselves.  Let's not pretend temple attendance is irrelevant.  And let's not pretend that a generalized effort to take care of our bodies, above and beyond avoiding certain verboten substances, isn't part of the intent of the Word of Wisdom.

Edited by Just_A_Guy

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13 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

And how is that not sinning differently?

If I determine that the best way for me to follow the council given is to not watch R-rated movies or wear a bikini (and trust me no one want s to see that)

And the OP determine that the best way to follow the council given is to not talk about not watching R-rated movies or not wearing bikinis.

What makes his determination to be a superior and more correct?  Did we sustain him as an oracle of God?  I know I do not remember doing so.

He is simply a man that has chosen a different focus and he is no more correct then any other man.  And yet with no more authority then that he seeks to call anyone and everyone that thinks differently then him to repentance

I think, after re-reading, I misunderstood what you were saying. I think I get it now.

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14 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

Yeah, I'm not quiet sure what "talking about it like it's doctrine" means.  Heck, we can't even talk straight about what doctrine in the LDS world means.

Right.

But it is, plainly, doctrinal that we should follow the counsel of prophets and apostles. So arguing that the counsel itself is not doctrine is a big ol' misdirect.

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Just now, The Folk Prophet said:

Right.

But it is, plainly, doctrinal that we should follow the counsel of prophets and apostles. So arguing that the counsel itself is not doctrine is a big ol' misdirect.

This is how I read Sweety D's post:  "The prophet counseled such and such, I don't want to follow that counsel.  Stop telling me I should and stop judging me."  - "I" being the people she's speaking for.

@Sweety D, can you clarify this for us?  Because, I can understand how somebody who got a tattoo before they joined the Church can feel uncomfortable around Mormons who looks differently at that tattoo.  Or an LDS who got a tattoo in the military or something.  But, even those who have tattoos in the Church will advice the youth not to get one.

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