LDS culture problem


Sweety D
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2 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

And for the record, I'm a Gen Xer. Very proud of that too.

I was born in 1963. I am proud of this fact. I think it marks me as a person of more-than-normal intelligence and moral virtue. I classify myself as a 1963er, and I tend to look askance at those inferiors born outside the appointed year.

Now, I admit that many of those born before 1963 have some virtues. They might even be admirable. There is certainly honor in being born in, say, 1956. But those born in, for example, 1972 are just slackers. And don't even get me started on the 1981ers. Pathetic.

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2 minutes ago, Vort said:

I was born in 1963. I am proud of this fact. I think it marks me as a person of more-than-normal intelligence and moral virtue. I classify myself as a 1963er, and I tend to look askance at those inferiors born outside the appointed year.

Now, I admit that many of those born before 1963 have some virtues. They might even be admirable. There is certainly honor in being born in, say, 1956. But those born in, for example, 1972 are just slackers. And don't even get me started on the 1981ers. Pathetic.

1963 :: ahem ::

I think your dyslexia kicked in gramps. We all know it's 1936. 

Take your dementia medication or I'm calling Mrs. @Vort and we'll talk about that rest home. 

Edited by MormonGator
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7 minutes ago, Fether said:

I never experienced the "Church Culture" everyone complains about. In fact I have encountered far more complaints about culture than the actual culture.

That.  I hear these complaints all the time and yet I have never experienced nor witnessed Sister A telling Brother B he's sinning if he watches R-rated movies / drinks caffeine.  Nor have I witnessed Brother B telling Sister A that bikini she wore on Saturday was sinful.

Never. Not once.

So where are all these people?

What I have heard are talks and lessons repeating counsel from prophets and apostles, supported by scripture, admonishing the saints to refrain from immodesty, harmful substances, and forms of entertainment which do not reflect church standards.  Now if someone takes such talks and lessons as a personal affront and uses them as an excuse to leave the Church, well, they're choosing to turn their backs on the counsel of God - they're not leaving because someone has exercised unrighteous judgement against them, they're leaving because they don't want to be told their pet habit / entertainment / attire is against the counsel given to us by prophets of God.  And if that's a valid reason to stop giving talks admonishing better choices, then we should stop giving talks at all, and we can all just stay home and watch sports on the sabbath.

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1 minute ago, Fether said:

Another thing to keep in mind is that eating chocolate and drinking caffeine may not in a general sense keep us from the Celestial Kingdom, but refusing to put it aside for God will. It's the disobedience that is the problem.

I get concerned when people say things like "If God outlawed *insert activity or substance*, I and many others would leave." In-so stating, they effectually leaving God already, placing whatever it is they love before God and essentially making that thing their god.

I agree 100% with all of this. Well said. This was far from the point others made though. I also think's is sad that someone would say .. "If God outlawed *insert activity or substance*, I and many others would leave." I have never heard this comment before.

I guess my point was that God hasn't asked to put those things aside. Which is why I (and others) have said, when/if that day comes, we gladly will. 

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2 minutes ago, zil said:

That.  I hear these complaints all the time and yet I have never experienced nor witnessed Sister A telling Brother B he's sinning if he watches R-rated movies / drinks caffeine.  Nor have I witnessed Brother B telling Sister A that bikini she wore on Saturday was sinful.

Never. Not once.

So where are all these people?

They are in your Bishops office complaining. 

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1 minute ago, Sweety D said:

They are in your Bishops office complaining. 

I'll ask him that next time I see him.  I find it hard to believe that all these offenses happen in private so that the only people who know about them are the unrighteous condemner, the condemnee, and the bishop.

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4 minutes ago, zil said:

That.  I hear these complaints all the time and yet I have never experienced nor witnessed Sister A telling Brother B he's sinning if he watches R-rated movies / drinks caffeine.  Nor have I witnessed Brother B telling Sister A that bikini she wore on Saturday was sinful.

Never. Not once.

So where are all these people?

What I have heard are talks and lessons repeating counsel from prophets and apostles, supported by scripture, admonishing the saints to refrain from immodesty, harmful substances, and forms of entertainment which do not reflect church standards.  Now if someone takes such talks and lessons as a personal affront and uses them as an excuse to leave the Church, well, they're choosing to turn their backs on the counsel of God - they're not leaving because someone has exercised unrighteous judgement against them, they're leaving because they don't want to be told their pet habit / entertainment / attire is against the counsel given to us by prophets of God.  And if that's a valid reason to stop giving talks admonishing better choices, then we should stop giving talks at all, and we can all just stay home and watch sports on the sabbath.

I do hear and see old people doing it x) my grandma snapped at me a while back because my garments were popping out of my shorts a bit. I then challenged her with stating that I could see my granpa's garments behind his top bottom of his shirt. She then snapped at him and said he should get new shirts xD 

and

in the words of my friend after a mutual friend left the church "some people hate living righteously so much that they will start looking for reasons to justify leaving."

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People privately complain all the time.

  • The deacon wasn't wearing a white shirt and he passed the sacrament!
  • Sister X distracts me when she changes the baby's diaper in the chapel.
  • I saw Brother X with another woman at the mall! He might be cheating... it was his sister. 

So many things like this are said. Trust me. 

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2 minutes ago, Sweety D said:

People privately complain all the time.

  • The deacon wasn't wearing a white shirt and he passed the sacrament!
  • Sister X distracts me when she changes the baby's diaper in the chapel.
  • I saw Brother X with another woman at the mall! He might be cheating... it was his sister. 

So many things like this are said. Trust me. 

Ok, maybe this is uncharitable of me but...

People need to just get over it.  There's way more important things to worry about.  

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5 minutes ago, Sweety D said:

People privately complain all the time.

  • The deacon wasn't wearing a white shirt and he passed the sacrament!
  • Sister X distracts me when she changes the baby's diaper in the chapel.
  • I saw Brother X with another woman at the mall! He might be cheating... it was his sister. 

So many things like this are said. Trust me. 

I have no doubt people waste the time of bishops everywhere on nonsense.  But none of those is an example of Person A telling Person B that they're sinning.  The OP was about people leaving because they'd been judged unrighteously.  So unless you tell that deacon / sister / brother about the complaint, how would they ever know they had been judged?

NOTE: I'm not saying it doesn't happen, GAs wouldn't give a talk on it if it didn't.  But I have to seriously wonder if its prevalence isn't exaggerated.  Maybe now that they've given talks on not judging unrighteously, we need talks on humility -- oh, wait, we've got those.  I see a catch-22 inbound.  Time for a salad.

Edited by zil
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1 minute ago, Jane_Doe said:

Ok, maybe this is uncharitable of me but...

People need to just get over it.  There's way more important things to worry about.  

I agree @Jane_Doe, but it's useless to complain about. It's always happened and it always will. 

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Back in my wilder teenage days I wore a Nine Inch Nails t-shirt to a church dance.

That got a bishop complaint for my "inappropriate music choices"!

(just in case your are wondering, I have repented and cleaned up my music choices since)

Edited by DoctorLemon
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4 minutes ago, zil said:

I have no doubt people waste the time of bishops everywhere on nonsense.  But none of those is an example of Person A telling Person B that they're sinning.  The OP was about people leaving because they'd been judged unrighteously.  

Correct, we got off topic. These examples may need less attention the the OP's examples. I was just explaining to someone that thought complaints don't really happen at all. 

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7 minutes ago, Sweety D said:

People privately complain all the time.

  • The deacon wasn't wearing a white shirt and he passed the sacrament!

"Brother Jones, I am the Bishop, and the responsibility to see to the performance of the Aaronic Priesthood duties is mine. If I see fit to allow young Brother Snidely to pass the sacrament in a striped purple T-shirt and plaid pants, that is my decision to make. Your concern is noted."

9 minutes ago, Sweety D said:
  • Sister X distracts me when she changes the baby's diaper in the chapel.

Um...

Actually, this is not an unreasonable complaint. The chapel is not a restroom. People should not be changing baby diapers in the chapel. This probably merits a private conversation with Sister X about the location of the restroom changing tables.

10 minutes ago, Sweety D said:
  • I saw Brother X with another woman at the mall! He might be cheating... it was his sister. 

"Sister Smith, I suggest you allow Brother X to transact his own affairs. No pun intended. President Brigham Young said that the 'Mormon motto' was 'Mind your own business.' I think we should take Brother Brigham's words to heart."

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1 minute ago, Vort said:

"Brother Jones, I am the Bishop, and the responsibility to see to the performance of the Aaronic Priesthood duties is mine. If I see fit to allow young Brother Snidely to pass the sacrament in a striped purple T-shirt and plaid pants, that is my decision to make. Your concern is noted."

Um...

Actually, this is not an unreasonable complaint. The chapel is not a restroom. People should not be changing baby diapers in the chapel. This probably merits a private conversation with Sister X about the location of the restroom changing tables.

"Sister Smith, I suggest you allow Brother X to transact his own affairs. No pun intended. President Brigham Young said that the 'Mormon motto' was 'Mind your own business.' I think we should take Brother Brigham's words to heart."

All of your thoughts on each complaint are great. Wouldn't change a thing about it. Yet it still feels like you are on the attack, I was simply stating that complaints happen. 

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2 minutes ago, DoctorLemon said:

Back in my wilder teenage days I wore a Nine Inch Nails t-shirt to a church dance.

That got a bishop complaint for my "inappropriate music choices"!

I used to wear my metal t shirts all the time to ward functions up north. I don't think anyone cared. 

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13 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

Ok, maybe this is uncharitable of me but...

People need to just get over it.  There's way more important things to worry about.  

Personally I subscribe to your theory. Unfortunately I can't say that to some people. 

Edited by Sweety D
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2 minutes ago, Sweety D said:

All of your thoughts on each complaint are great. Wouldn't change a thing about it. Yet it still feels like you are on the attack, I was simply stating that complaints happen. 

My point is that these sort of petty complaints* can be handled in a straightforward manner, and are not (or need not be) the horrible examples of judgmental gossip that this thread is ostensibly about.

*Except for the second, as I noted. That one is eminently reasonable. Seriously, if Sister X is changing her baby's diaper in the chapel, you or the Relief Society president need to have a private discussion with Sister X.

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Just now, Vort said:

My point is that these sort of petty complaints* can be handled in a straightforward manner, and are not (or need not be) the horrible examples of judgmental gossip that this thread is ostensibly about.

*Except for the second, as I noted. That one is eminently reasonable. Seriously, if Sister X is changing her baby's diaper in the chapel, you or the Relief Society president need to have a private discussion with Sister X.

We are in complete agreement. They are petty. But they are still complaints. And it was a quick 'off the top of my head' list. The list could be very long. And most of them would be petty. 

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12 minutes ago, DoctorLemon said:

Back in my wilder teenage days I wore a Nine Inch Nails t-shirt to a church dance.

That got a bishop complaint for my "inappropriate music choices"!

This is always a tough one. The handbook used to have strict guidelines about dress code at youth dances, but you don't want to exclude anyone.  Fortunately the new handbook is different. 

Edited by Sweety D
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Just now, Sweety D said:

We are in complete agreement. They are petty. But they are still complaints. And it was a quick 'off the top of my head' list. The list could be very long. And most of them would be petty. 

Yuck.  This is not something to waste brain cells on.

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12 minutes ago, DoctorLemon said:

Back in my wilder teenage days I wore a Nine Inch Nails t-shirt to a church dance.

That got a bishop complaint for my "inappropriate music choices"!

(just in case your are wondering, I have repented and cleaned up my music choices since)

This is touchy for any bishop, but...Nine Inch Nails? The very name of the band is a mocking reference to the murder of the Savior. Even given that few teenage boys are noted for their judgment of propriety, I think that a bishop has to say something about such a t-shirt.

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6 minutes ago, Sweety D said:

We are in complete agreement. They are petty. But they are still complaints. And it was a quick 'off the top of my head' list. The list could be very long. And most of them would be petty. 

You can't beat Vort. Many of us have tried to reason with him and all have failed. He is just to reasonable.

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Just now, Vort said:

This is touchy for any bishop, but...Nine Inch Nails? The very name of the band is a mocking reference to the murder of the Savior. Even given that few teenage boys are noted for their judgment of propriety, I think that a bishop has to say something about such a t-shirt.

But that brings up another good point, I have heard of NiN. But until you said that I knew nothing about the name of the band and that it represented the murder of the Savior. That's another reason it's so tough to decide what's ok and what not in those situations. (I'm not old, quite young for my situation, I just don't follow music much).

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